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One who sins is of the devil, and does not know God.

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
It would be extremely presumptuous of me to try to second-guess where you're going to end up after the Final Judgement. Apparently you already know that we believe in a three-tiered Heaven, as we believe is referenced in 1 Corinthians 15). We believe that the highest "degree of glory," compared in glory to the sun, is called the Celestial Kingdom. The second highest, with a glory comparable to that of the moon, is the Terrestrial Kingdom. The lowest, with a glory like that of the stars, is the "Telestial Kingdom." It is almost certain that you would not go to the lowest kingdom and it is entirely possible that you may go to the highest. The thing is, we don't believe that death marks the final opportunity for us to make choices which will impact our ultimate destination. Of course, this is a very simplistic explanation, but the bottom line is that we do not believe a person's final reward in heaven is to be based upon his denomination here on earth. Mormons are not assured a spot in the Celestial Kingdom any more than non-Mormons are guaranteed to end up in one of the lower kingdoms.

But Revelation 3 says I will sit with Jesus on His throne. And the Bible offers 100% assurance of salvation for believers, and not any statements that "Nobody knows, until that time of judgment..."

I can only accept Bible doctrines. I apologize if I seem inflexible.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
But Revelation 3 says I will sit with Jesus on His throne. And the Bible offers 100% assurance of salvation for believers, and not any statements that "Nobody knows, until that time of judgment..."

I can only accept Bible doctrines. I apologize if I seem inflexible.
There's no need to apologize. We all interpret the exact same scriptures differently. But according to your interpretation, I -- as a believer -- will also sit with Jesus on His throne.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
I must say this has been a very interesting discussion to read.

Johnlove, I don't know you and I therefore cannot be certain of what you say when you claim that you do not sin: However I very much believe that you are correct in your understanding of the effect of true and pure faith in Jesus Christ.

You see Jesus was a miracle worker. But I always ask myself, why did he have to do so many miracles? Why were they recorded? What is the message behind his miracles? Perhaps the message was, with God nothing shall be impossible.

Now I hear those who oppose you claiming that it is still okay to sin after receiving Christ so long as you don't strive to sin or sin unto death or "practice" (whatever that might means). And in truth that all sounds a bit reasonable. However the question is, what is so special about someone who doesn't strive to sin, or sin unto death or practice who still sins nonetheless. Many people on earth don't strive to sin or sin unto death or practice sin. If they are already doing this and the blood of Christ covers such then what is the purpose of even teaching them the Gospel: are they not already saved? In fact this would mean that most of the human race has been saved and will enter heaven.
But that would be contrary to the words of Christ when he said,"For strait is the gate and narrow the way that leads to eternal life and few there be that find it."

Also, all would agree that it would take a miracle to turn a normal human being into a sinless man. And that is why the miracles of Christ are so important. He has the power to perform such miracles - he has the power to transform a sinful man into a sinless saint. When Jesus healed a man of blindness, that man didn't need to go to Jesus every week asking to be healed of blindness. If a man is cured of a disease, he doesn't need to go to the doctor every week to be cured again.
Once we are cured from our desire to sin then we are properly and permanently cured (unless we willfully seek to return to our sins). And if we have no desire to sin, and the Spirit is there to help us do what is right, then who will force us to commit sin? And if no one can force us to commit sin then how shall we sin if we have no desire for it?

The Great miracle of God is his ability to change the human heart. This is a greater miracle than parting the red sea or turning water into wine.

Now I must promptly confess that I am not there yet. And I know why and I know it is my own fault. This is because it is very difficult to let go of all pride, doubt and fear. There are some things I don't feel willing to do, and I know that is causing me to fall short of the Grace of God. But when I here of a man such as yourself - and I have personally met a man who is near to what you describe of yourself - then my commitment is renewed and I remember that I don't have to settle of mediocrity in my walk with God.
 
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