Oklahoma Lawmaker Wants to Push Christian Revisionist History in Public Schools

[Kenny]

I not only read it, I tried to find more about it. But all I found where morons who try to say that "“As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion" means something other than what it says and twist it around to try to say it doesn't actually say America isn't founded on Christianity but rather there are no religious opinions that would give rise the ongoing conflict that lead to the treaty, and assume that "Almighty" inherently means the Christian god.
And, FYI, Europe has largely been officially religious for a very long time. America was set in sharp contrast when it said it won't respect the establishment of religion (as well as nor prohibit the free exercise thereof).

So why "There is NO Article 11 in the Arabic version of that treaty,"

 

[sooda]

The Barbary Treaties 1786-1816
Treaty of Peace and Friendship, Signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796

Avalon Project - The Barbary Treaties 1786-1816 - Treaty of Peace and Friendship, Signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796

What is the controversy? Is it about Article 11?

 

[sooda]

So why "There is NO Article 11 in the Arabic version of that treaty,"

John Adams was president when the treaty was ratified..
President John Adams was a devout Unitarian, which was a non-trinitarian Protestant Christian denomination during the Colonial era. He was identified as a Congregationalist by The Congregationalist Library.

 

[Kenny]

The Mayflower Compact has ZERO legal authority or standing in America. It's equally legally binding to us as is the Code of Hammurabi.

So, because the treaty signed by America and another country directly contradicts your views it's revisionist and doesn't actually exist?

It may not have any legal authority (of course) but it does have historical authority as to why they came to the United States of America... to establish a Christian nation.

Please reviews statements about article 11

 

[Kenny]

John Adams was president when the treaty was ratified..



President John Adams was a devout Unitarian, which was a non-trinitarian Protestant Christian denomination during the Colonial era. He was identified as a Congregationalist by The Congregationalist Library.

Yes... that is true although he would still call himself a Christian... just a non-trinitarian Protestant Christian and as much declare the US Christian.

ADDED:

"As no truth is more clearly taught in the Volume of Inspiration, not any more fully demonstrated by the experience of all ages, than that a deep sense and a due acknowledgment of the growing providence of a Supreme Being and of the accountableness of men to Him as the searcher of hearts and righteous distributor of rewards and punishments are conducive equally to the happiness of individuals and to the well-being of communities....I have thought proper to recommend, and I hereby recommend accordingly, that Thursday, the twenty-fifth of April next, be observed throughout the United States of America as a day of solemn humiliation, fasting, and prayer; that the citizens on that day abstain, as far as may be, from their secular occupation, and devote the time to the sacred duties of religion, in public and in private; that they call to mind our numerous offenses against the most high God, confess them before Him with the sincerest penitence, implore His pardoning mercy, through the Great Mediator and Redeemer, for our past transgressions, and that through His Holy Spirit, we may be disposed and enabled to yield a more suitable obedience to His righteous requisitions in time to come; that He would interpose to arrest the progress of that impiety and licentiousness in principle and practice so offensive to Himself and so ruinous to mankind; that He would make us deeply sensible that "righteousness exalteth a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people" [Proverbs 14:34]."
John Adams, "National Fast Day," A COMPILATION OF THE MESSAGES AND PAPERS OF THE PRESIDENTS, 1:284-86.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It may not have any legal authority (of course) but it does have historical authority as to why they came to the United States of America... to establish a Christian nation.

The Puritans were basically forced out and shipped here because people in Europe didn't like them. However, after them, the Founders would establish what is clearly outlined to be a secular nation where the State is prohibited from favoring the establishment of religion and any requirements of tests of faith to hold public office.

 

[Kenny]

The Puritans were basically forced out and shipped here because people in Europe didn't like them. However, after them, the Founders would establish what is clearly outlined to be a secular nation where the State is prohibited from favoring the establishment of religion and any requirements of tests of faith to hold public office.

No. Records show that your position is wrong. It changed in the 1060's or there about.

You have no substantiated proof of any wording that clearly outlined this to be a secular nation. As a matter of fact EVERY State Constitution recognizes God and doesn't mention anything about a secular State.

Nice try though

 

[sooda]

No. Records show that your position is wrong. It changed in the 1060's or there about.

You have no substantiated proof of any wording that clearly outlined this to be a secular nation. As a matter of fact EVERY State Constitution recognizes God and doesn't mention anything about a secular State.

Nice try though

The early settlers.. Pilgrims, Puritans, Quakers, Dutch Reform, Huguenots, Anabaptists could not get along with each other.. They shunned one another, refused to trade with one another,,

 

[Kenny]

The early settlers.. Pilgrims, Puritans, Quakers, Dutch Reform, Huguenots, Anabaptists could not get along with each other.. They shunned one another, refused to trade with one another,,

But there was freedom of religion... not freedom from religion.

 

[sooda]

But there was freedom of religion... not freedom from religion.

You might want to read some history written in the 1670s and early 1700s.. Its was tough going .. they had no inclination of freedom of religion.

 

[Kenny]

You might want to read some history written in the 1670s and early 1700s.. Its was tough going .. they had no inclination of freedom of religion.

Are you saying that the 1670's and 1700's was about establishing a secular nation?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You have no substantiated proof of any wording that clearly outlined this to be a secular nation.

You've been given proof, proof that you dismiss as revisionist. Congress shall make no laws respecting the establishment of religion. There shall be no tests of faith to hold public office. The United States was not, in any sense, founded upon Christian principles. Like it or not, freedom from religion was the goal to best preserve the rights of all, including the freedom of religion.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Are you saying that the 1670's and 1700's was about establishing a secular nation?

No. They wanted to establish theocratic states and deny freedom of religion. The Baptists themselves were actually major proponents of freedom from religion so they could be left alone to worship as they see fit free from state pressure and legislation. Basically, by having no state religion you ensure all religions can be practiced, none of them banned, and none of them forced underground. That is what freedom from religion gets us, as well as the freedom to not be legislated by religious dogma.

 

[Kenny]

You've been given proof, proof that you dismiss as revisionist. Congress shall make no laws respecting the establishment of religion. There shall be no tests of faith to hold public office. The United States was not, in any sense, founded upon Christian principles. Like it or not, freedom from religion was the goal to best preserve the rights of all, including the freedom of religion.

I disagree and have given multiple quotes that deny your position.

You have absolutely no documentation that says "We are establishing a secular state"... period. If you study Christianity, you will find that you are not forced to believe.

I also noted various quotes that declared that the US was founded on Christian principles. Indeed EVERY State Constitution recognizes God.

And the Constitution does NOT say "Freedom from Religion" but "Freedom OF religion".

You are in error on all accounts.

 

[Kenny]

No. They wanted to establish theocratic states and deny freedom of religion. The Baptists themselves were actually major proponents of freedom from religion so they could be left alone to worship as they see fit free from state pressure and legislation. Basically, by having no state religion you ensure all religions can be practiced, none of them banned, and none of them forced underground. That is what freedom from religion gets us, as well as the freedom to not be legislated by religious dogma.

I disagree.

I find no State Constitution trying to establish a theocratic state. That is what England was doing. They wanted freedom OF religion but not freedom FROM religion.

Where does the Constitution say "Freedom FROM religion"? Only found in an attempt to have a revisionist attitude to historical evidence.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I disagree and have given multiple quotes that deny your position.

You've gave quotes from a handful of Christians and provided nothing of legal substance.

And the Constitution does NOT say "Freedom from Religion" but "Freedom OF religion".

Word-for-word, it doesn't say either. But it does say "congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion" (freedom from religion) before stating "nor abridge the free practice thereof" (freedom of religion).

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I find no State Constitution trying to establish a theocratic state. That is what England was doing. They wanted freedom OF religion but not freedom FROM religion.

England not having freedom of or from is a part of the reason how the Puritans ended up here. And because of the centuries of problems state religion caused in Europe, the Founders sought to snuff it out by upfront declaring no state religion. Such is a means to not only prevent Crusades, Inquisitions, and slaughter in the name of religion, it does away with absurd political turmoil that ends up repressing those of the same religion but different denomination. It prevents turmoil due to schisms. It ensures Jews won't be bound to Christian law, and Christians won't be bound to Hindu law.

 

[Kenny]

England not having freedom of or from is a part of the reason how the Puritans ended up here. And because of the centuries of problems state religion caused in Europe, the Founders sought to snuff it out by upfront declaring no state religion. Such is a means to not only prevent Crusades, Inquisitions, and slaughter in the name of religion, it does away with absurd political turmoil that ends up repressing those of the same religion but different denomination. It prevents turmoil due to schisms. It ensures Jews won't be bound to Christian law, and Christians won't be bound to Hindu law.

Yes... we have no laws to establish a certain strain of religion... but doesn't change the fact that we were founded on a Christian base:

Chief Justice Joseph Story:

The real object of the First Amendment was not to countenance much less to advance Mohammedanism, or Judaism, or infidelity by prostrating Christianity, but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects and to prevent any national ecclesiastical patronage of the national government."

Justice Joseph Story "The real object of the First Amendment was not to...advance Mohammedanism...or infidelity, by prostrating Christianity, but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects"

 

[Kenny]

You've gave quotes from a handful of Christians and provided nothing of legal substance.

Word-for-word, it doesn't say either. But it does say "congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion" (freedom from religion) before stating "nor abridge the free practice thereof" (freedom of religion).

#118

 

[Shadow Wolf]

#118

That doesn't establish America as a Christian nation, but rather supports what we (and definitely not you) have been saying in that America was established religion to avoid such conflicts. Basically, because America can make no law respecting the establishment of religion, it means no one can yell "off with your head" because you follow a different denomination of Christianity than the one the state has respected as official. Because the government is secular, you get to believe what you want without the government telling you that you can't.