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Oh NOes!!! White Supremacists Want Your White Children

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Not when, not that long ago, the very idea of a white supremacist rally in the first place was nigh-unthinkable. 250 people walked through the streets of Charlottesville with torches chanting "blood and soil", and the next day they were met with hundreds more protesters who professed not to be white supremacists, but were nevertheless happy to march in lockstep with Nazis and cheer the idea of a race war.


I'm not so sure it has been "unthinkable." One of the more famous cases was from the 70s, when the Nazi party sued the city of Skokie for the right to march in that community. There have been various other protests and demonstrations over the years, but they all appear basically the same: A few white supremacists in costumes surrounded by thousands who adamantly oppose them.


Even if we accept that the actual numbers of white supremacists is low, we cannot deny the influence that their rhetoric is having on the global political discourse. While it may not turn people into white supremacists, it does seem to have generated a lot of white-supremacist enablers. The popularity of far right blogs and mouthpieces right now who actively try to downplay white nationalist rhetoric, or the role white supremacy played in Charlottesville, is testament to that.


The global political discourse is also coming from other countries. Nationalism appears to be on the rise in multiple countries, not just in Europe or America, but also in Asia and Africa, too. Some of this is the result of well-intended anti-colonialist attitudes which then fed movements of national liberation – which shares a good deal of ideological overlap with nationalism itself. This is where a certain level of ideological conflict comes into play. The enablers are those who give validation to the nationalistic mindset, even if it might be considered well-intentioned in many cases.


It is. Racism in America is on the rise, and we are seeing a dramatic increase in terrorist attacks from white nationalists. The president himself was nominated partially on a platform that was buoyed by racist rhetoric, and is still spouting white nationalist talking points and often attacking people for their race and national identity. It's easy to point to tattoo-bearing Nazis or hooded clansmen and say "Those people's views are unacceptable", but people are less keen to point the finger and the rhetoric used by the broader arm of the alt-right. Just because people like Stephen Crowder or Sargon try to present themselves as "logical centrists/conservatives", it's fairly easy to see how their talking points and platforms not only empower but actively justify white nationalist views. You don't have to wave a Nazi flag or wear a hood to further racist causes or arguments.


This is true, because America and many other countries have a history of racism, without necessarily being Nazis or Klansmen or even nationalists. One doesn't really have anything to do with the other, which many people fail to consider.


And again, a lot of this has to do with how the issue has been presented to the public, not by white supremacists, but by the mainstream. They've presented racism as a kind of caricature of a beer-swilling, trailer-dwelling "redneck" who likes to dress up in World War 2 uniforms and wave swastikas in people's faces (as if upper-class, educated white people would never hold such views). Those who don't appear to fit that image might not be thought of in that way.


This is part of the problem with overusing the tactics of ridicule and the labeling of people as "deplorables," since it creates such an obvious, lopsided image in people's minds that it tends to confuse and distract them to the point where they may be ill-equipped to actually identify someone on the alt-right.


This seems to be the crux of your observation here, that these white nationalists are trying to pass themselves off as "logical centrists/conservatives" and not fitting in to the caricature associated with far-right extremism.


But it's the caricature that's been wrong all along, and that appears to be the primary reason why more people among the general public seem unable to recognize far-right extremism in the way that you think they should. Or they might recognize it and simply go along with it, cynically finding new and inventive ways of saying "Separate But Equal" while trying to craft their rhetoric in such a way as to maintain a veneer of "plausible deniability" in case they're called out on it.


I can't say how much of this supposedly influenced those who voted for Trump; it's hard to say. I would still maintain that Trump's election was largely the result of Democrats turning their backs on blue-collar workers, particularly those in the Rust Belt states which the Democrats were expected to win, but didn't. There were also internal squabbles within the party, such as between Bernie and Hillary, which also crippled them in the general election.


I don't doubt that. What I doubt is that they are presenting it honestly - that's why I wanted to see the examples they used.


To be honest, I haven't really seen some of the more recent examples, but I've had occasion to look over the years and see how the tactic generally works. I agree that they're doing so in a biased and intellectually dishonest manner; I'm not arguing that point. But they do use it; it's there for them to use, and as I pointed out, even those in the mainstream might pick up on it and recognize it, and this is what might sensitize people to it so that when they do encounter it being used by white nationalists, they won't get the nuance and context that you're talking about.


In my experience, whenever there is a huge reaction against something somebody wrote regarding social justice (take, for example, the statement "black people can't be racist"), I usually look into where the original statement comes from and find out that there is either a significant amount of nuance that is being deliberately missed, or the whole thing is an outright fabrication.


I think what they're trying to do is suggest an attitude. That is, in the aftermath of a history of gross injustices, abuses, and atrocities, there will be those who call for justice, and those who call for revenge. What they seem to be suggesting is that there's a blurry line between legitimate calls for justice versus calls for revenge and violence.


While groups like Antifa or BLM can use violent or disruptive tactics, when you actually look at the history of allegations and use of social media against them, you realize how much of it is pure fabrication created by far-right groups in an effort to drive people to their cause. Again, look on these forums. Look how many posters claim that Antifa are "the real fascists" or that BLM are "the real racists". These are views generated wholesale by ultra-nationalist organizations and white supremacist propaganda, enforced by a willful manipulation of facts, and they are not only all over the internet, they are present almost anywhere that a debate is being had about the subject.


People's views are often influenced and manipulated through fear. FDR once said "the only thing we have to fear, is fear itself," but nevertheless, a lot of people today seem to be engaging in the politics of fear.


Another thing I've noticed is that it appears that the alt-right sometimes tries to mimic the various social justice groups. For example, they might say, "Well, if it's okay to have an organization called Black Lives Matter – and not be considered racist, then whites should be able to form an organization called White Lives Matter and not be considered racist." Their logic being, "if they can do it, we can do it."


Essentially, that's what you're dealing with here. Of course, you can correctly observe that it's propaganda and a willful manipulation of the facts. You can point out that they don't understand the nuance or the context, and that's probably true, but that may also point up part of the problem. There's really no need for nuance or context.


It's still possible for people with righteous, well-intentioned goals to use questionable means of achieving them. That's what we might call into question here. You've pointed out numerous times how the alt-right uses dishonest and manipulative tactics, which I've never denied here. They're a bunch of dirty Nazis, so of course they're dishonest and unscrupulous, but that's not telling me anything I didn't already know. Surely you weren't expecting them to play fair, were you?


But that aside, my point here is that the liberals and progressives have opened themselves up to that. The weaknesses in their positions are being identified and exploited. So, perhaps a change in strategy might be considered? I don't see what good it will do to continue to defend a failed strategy when the same basic goals can be achieved through other means.


(to be continued)
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
But that's not an attitude I see being generated by progressive of anti-fascist groups. It's the attitude generated by the far-right. Again, the mother in OP is not engaging in an "us vs them" mentality.


I didn't say that she was doing that. But I have discerned it as a larger phenomenon within the political culture.


She talked with her sons, acknowledged their concerns, and realized that the social currents driving their children towards white nationalist propaganda were an issue that needed to be addressed. You're correct when you say that there are broader social constructs at the heart of this, but I believe the solution lies not in blaming people with provocative views for driving people apart, but lie in deepening understanding of these views, of societal injustice, and not allowing ourselves to be whipped up into a frenzy by (willful or otherwise) manipulation or exaggeration of those views.


True, although one has to take it all into consideration with all of the views, imagery, and various cultural phenomena one might be exposed to – especially those at a young age who might be more impressionable. Even a lot of adults and parents don't have a firm grasp on the political issues of this country or know much about the history.


The real issue at work, as I see it, is class. If everyone was well-fed, had access to affordable housing, education, healthcare, decent jobs, and safe, comfortable, stable surroundings, then a lot of the problems you're addressing here would be minimal. The best way to avoid extremist politics is to keep the people happy, but if people are made to feel fearful, insecure, or threatened, then bad things start to happen.


When you actually understand what "white privilege" means, it ceases to have any divisive connotations and becomes something we can actually talk about and address. When you understand what Black Lives Matter actually represent, you stop calling them racists and start to examine the myriad social injustices that they are addressing.


It is, however, a valid criticism to question the terminology and how these ideas are conveyed. True, as you say, when people understand what it's really getting at, it might be seen differently, but the problem is that there such a fixation on the terminology and semantics that the underlying message gets lost.


I do find it curious that, instead of simply finding a different way of expressing the same view, liberals and progressives seem to double-down in their defense of this terminology for its own sake. They end up sounding like Obi-Wan Kenobi trying to explain to Luke Skywalker why he told him that Darth Vader murdered his father when in fact, Darth Vader was his father. "So, what I told you was true, from a certain point of view." Sometimes, it can come across as pseudo-intellectual double-talk.


The truth is that the only people who fear such ideas or movements are the people who fear losing influence or power through the empowerment of voices other than their own, and they have a vested interest in convincing people to oppose them. This opposition doesn't start with white supremacists, it starts with your average white kid who is suddenly finding themselves "targeted" by rhetoric that they believe paints them as undeserving or immoral, when the reality is that we are currently in the midst of a movement that finally acknowledges that white men have held disproportionate power and influence, and this issue is finally being addressed.


Again, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you here, but when we're talking about young boys who are 11 and 14, they don't see a world like that. They weren't around back in the old days, and they've been exposed to a completely different set of ideas. As children, they would not even be aware that they have any influence or power, so it's unlikely that they would be afraid of losing it.


You're not dealing with George Wallace's generation anymore. His kind are long gone.


I would also question the implied view when you use the phrase "this issue is finally being addressed." What do you mean by "finally"? I don't know how old you are, but as far as I've been able to tell, this issue was being addressed for longer than I've been alive, and I'm in my mid-50s.


As for your phrase "white men have held disproportionate power and influence," what if you substituted "white men" for "wealthy people"? That would be just as true.


Why is it more important for you to identify the race and gender of those holding disproportionate power, rather than noting their class identity? Why are you intentionally ignoring the issue of class?


It's not about number - I can type practically any view I want into Google and find thousands of examples of it - it's about prevalence and influence. To say that there ARE views held by people that are prejudicial against white men is not a particularly compelling point to make. To claim that such views are prevalent enough that they are justifying white nationalist rhetoric or driving people away from progressive movements I think is simply wrong. I think there are organizations who are trying to make those views SEEM prevalent within progressive circles in order to denigrate them and make young men sympathetic to their cause, while the reality is that genuine prejudice against white men simply isn't a real issue. It's a phantom threat, generated by malign political ideologies in order to curtail progressive speech and prevent social change. The articles you've linked to are, in many ways, perfect examples of this. They draw equivalences between social attitudes towards men and women to try and generate the impression that men are unfairly treated, when it is blatantly still women who are the victims of social and institutional injustice. They equate the removal (or reduction) of white male privilege with prejudice against white men. They take single sentences used by politicans, free of any context, to declare that politician is declaring "war on men". They are exaggerations, manipulations, hyperbole, designed to generated a view that the people in power are the real victims, and need to be protected from the people who challenge them, who are the real sexists/racists/fascists. It's a fantasy.


You know, you could have said all of this from the outset. I can tell from this paragraph here that you knew exactly what I was talking about from the very beginning, yet it seemed you were trying to pretend like you never heard of it before.


No, I'm talking about prevalence. I earlier asked just for the examples the white supremacists used because I doubt that they would either be genuine or actually indicate a particular prevalence of those views. You earlier said that there were identarians engaging in "denigrating white males", and all you've really presented to that effect so far are articles reacting against PERCEIVED denigration and one obscure opinion piece in a University newsletter. The point is that the white supremacists aren't being HANDED these views, they are essentially fabricating them; or, at least, fabricating their prevalence or influence and attaching them to movements that they do not belong to. The fact that a particular view exists is not noteworthy - the question is to what extent one side can be blamed for the other's representation of them. In this case, I don't think the white nationalists use "anti-male" or "anti-white" examples in good faith, and I believe they willfully misrepresent or distort progressive views to make them seem "anti-male" or "anti-white" in order to generate antipathy. It's not progressives driving young people to white nationalism, it's white nationalists lying and misrepresenting progressives to win over young people.


(TO BE CONTINUED...)


Yes, of course, they're a bunch of dirty Nazis and they don't play fair. Again, this is no great revelation, but why make it easier for them?


It's just like with the 2016 election. The Republicans didn't really "win" it as much as the Democrats "lost" it. Likewise, in the battle for the hearts and minds of America's youth, the Nazis aren't really "gaining" recruits as much as the liberals and progressives are "losing" them. And why are they losing them? That's the question you might consider examining someday.
 
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