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Is there and Obligation


  • Total voters
    10

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This OP is about the choice of those that represent a Faith. Starting at the leader, on to the priests, and down to all those that have a appointed responsibility of guiding the followers. No matter what faith, no matter what these leaders are called. It is aimed at addressing those that have the most influence of the practice of a Faith.

This OP will offer a specific scenario so the Obligations can be considered. The Governance of the Catholic Church will be used as an example, a real life scenario is to be used, a historical event.

This is stated at the onset of this discussion so if you continue, it is your choice, as this OP is about the application of Justice required by a conferred obligation imposed by the position they hold.

The scenario.

The Pope receives Correspondence which contains a Message of deep spiritual significance for all of Christianity. That Message starts;

"O Pope! Rend the veils asunder. He Who is the Lord of Lords is come overshadowed with clouds, and the decree hath been fulfilled by God, the Almighty, the Unrestrained. Dispel the mists through the power of thy Lord, and ascend unto the Kingdom of His names and attributes. Thus hath the Pen of the Most High commanded thee at the behest of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Compelling. He, verily, hath again come down from Heaven even as He came down from it the first time. Beware that thou dispute not with Him even as the Pharisees disputed with Him without a clear token or proof. On His right hand flow the living waters of grace, and on His left the choice Wine of justice, whilst before Him march the angels of Paradise, bearing the banners of His signs. Beware lest any name debar thee from God, the Creator of earth and heaven. Leave thou the world behind thee, and turn towards thy Lord, through Whom the whole earth hath been illumined."


So, a substantial claim has been received, it addressed the very foundations of Faith, the implications are obvious.

Did the Pope, as the Leader of a Faith, have an obligation to pursue Justice and determine if that summons had any foundations of truth?

images (8).jpeg

The Question can now be drilled down to all levels of Authority, for all those that have influence as to how others perceive the Faith they follower. Do they likewise have an obligation?

Finally down to the Individual, do they have an Obligation if the same letter included them?

O peoples of the earth! Destroy the abodes of negligence with the hands of power and assurance, and raise up the mansions of true knowledge within your hearts, that the All-Merciful may shed the radiance of His light upon them. Better is this for you than all whereon the sun shineth, and unto this beareth witness He Who holdeth within His grasp the ultimate decree. The Breeze of God hath been wafted over the world at the advent of the Desired One in His great glory, whereupon every stone and clod of earth hath cried out: “The Promised One is come! The Kingdom is God’s, the Mighty, the Gracious, the Forgiving.”

This OP is about the Obligation, not about conversion, is is applicable to all claims made. The material used is an historical fact, nothing more.

This OP comes about, as many try to shift their own obligation to search the truth of a claim, on to the claimant.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I must admit, I'm confused.

I think religion is all about faith, not PROVABLE truth.

Faith is all about using logic and reason to decide upon Truth. To do this one would have built their Faith upon the given evidence.

This OP is about the Obligation in Faith. Those that have already decided upon the evidence they built their Faith upon, having already used logic and reason to do so.

The Pope has Faith built upon his own relative understanding of the truths Faith provides. As do all people of faith.

Religion is built upon Justice. The first Christians had to judge what Jesus Christ offered them, had to judge fairly and unbiased upon the evidence that Jesus and the Message gave.

Regards Tony
 
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icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Faith is all about using logic and reason to decide upon Truth. To do this one would have built their Faith upon the given evidence.

Interesting perspective. To me, "faith" is about believing something in the absence of logic or evidence.

This might sound judgmental, but it's not meant to be. For example, I'm a secular humanist. I have faith that humans can solve their own problems, even though these days there is a LOT of evidence to the contrary :eek:
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I must admit, I'm confused.

I think religion is all about faith, not PROVABLE truth.

Interesting perspective. To me, "faith" is about believing something in the absence of logic or evidence.

This might sound judgmental, but it's not meant to be. For example, I'm a secular humanist. I have faith that humans can solve their own problems, even though these days there is a LOT of evidence to the contrary :eek:

I am happy to open it further as I see all people have the Obligation to search for all truth, for their own selves.

So I will have to use a 'what if' as the pretext to the discussion.

What if God does guide us via Messengers and if they are obeyed, the majority of the conflicts, disaster, unlawfulness, and illnesses do not become manifested. At this stage, it is not a commonly held truth, only a plausible and viable option, the options are that we either sort it out between ourselves, or there is a God that guides us.

So It becomes known that the required criteria for that change is offered in both the example of the person and life of a God given message giver, and further confirmed in detail in the given message/s.

With that as the foundation, a person subsequently is given a Message that all the troubles humanity face can be solved by listening to what the Message offered. The elixer can only be delivered as a result of that person choosing to pursue that Message without prejudice and with justice.

Is there an obligation for that person to do so, keeping in mind it is a plausible and viable option?

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
My own thoughts is that every person has a obligation to determine what is true and what is false.

I see Justice sustains humanity, it helps us build unity. The lack of justice unleashes unbridled liberty and anarchy, the things that destroy any attempts at unity.

Unity, in turn meed to be moderated by the clash of many differing opinions, otherwise we breed dictators.

Regards Tony
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
To me, messages of any kind can be created but have no significance. Kabir addressed the superficiality of words in a way that for me illustrates the point. The spiritual stature of the one creating the words gives them meaning not the words themselves.

If saying God gave liberation,
saying candy made your mouth sweet,
saying fire burned your feet,
saying water quenched your thirst,
saying food banished hunger,
the whole world would be free.
The parrot gabbles God like a man
but doesn’t know God’s glory.
When he flies off to the jungle,
he’ll forget God.
If you don’t see
if you don’t touch,
what’s the use of the Name?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
This OP is about the choice of those that represent a Faith. Starting at the leader, on to the priests, and down to all those that have a appointed responsibility of guiding the followers. No matter what faith, no matter what these leaders are called. It is aimed at addressing those that have the most influence of the practice of a Faith.

This OP will offer a specific scenario so the Obligations can be considered. The Governance of the Catholic Church will be used as an example, a real life scenario is to be used, a historical event.

This is stated at the onset of this discussion so if you continue, it is your choice, as this OP is about the application of Justice required by a conferred obligation imposed by the position they hold.

The scenario.

The Pope receives Correspondence which contains a Message of deep spiritual significance for all of Christianity. That Message starts;

"O Pope! Rend the veils asunder. He Who is the Lord of Lords is come overshadowed with clouds, and the decree hath been fulfilled by God, the Almighty, the Unrestrained. Dispel the mists through the power of thy Lord, and ascend unto the Kingdom of His names and attributes. Thus hath the Pen of the Most High commanded thee at the behest of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Compelling. He, verily, hath again come down from Heaven even as He came down from it the first time. Beware that thou dispute not with Him even as the Pharisees disputed with Him without a clear token or proof. On His right hand flow the living waters of grace, and on His left the choice Wine of justice, whilst before Him march the angels of Paradise, bearing the banners of His signs. Beware lest any name debar thee from God, the Creator of earth and heaven. Leave thou the world behind thee, and turn towards thy Lord, through Whom the whole earth hath been illumined."


So, a substantial claim has been received, it addressed the very foundations of Faith, the implications are obvious.

Did the Pope, as the Leader of a Faith, have an obligation to pursue Justice and determine if that summons had any foundations of truth?

View attachment 71817

The Question can now be drilled down to all levels of Authority, for all those that have influence as to how others perceive the Faith they follower. Do they likewise have an obligation?

Finally down to the Individual, do they have an Obligation if the same letter included them?

O peoples of the earth! Destroy the abodes of negligence with the hands of power and assurance, and raise up the mansions of true knowledge within your hearts, that the All-Merciful may shed the radiance of His light upon them. Better is this for you than all whereon the sun shineth, and unto this beareth witness He Who holdeth within His grasp the ultimate decree. The Breeze of God hath been wafted over the world at the advent of the Desired One in His great glory, whereupon every stone and clod of earth hath cried out: “The Promised One is come! The Kingdom is God’s, the Mighty, the Gracious, the Forgiving.”

This OP is about the Obligation, not about conversion, is is applicable to all claims made. The material used is an historical fact, nothing more.

This OP comes about, as many try to shift their own obligation to search the truth of a claim, on to the claimant.

Regards Tony
I'm not sure I understand. If I received the same letter, I would have thrown it into the trash can and said "I have pursued Justice and determined that the summons had no foundations of truth!" within the context of my signature
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I think people who make the claim to be interested in truth have the obligation to pursue it if they wish to be free of hypocrisy, however I dont see that as giving them any obligation to accept the whole claims of Baha'u'llah - a portion of which I believe are without adequate truth foundation.

So if your OP wants us to assume Baha'u'llah's claims are completely true you should probably have stated that in your OP (apologies if you did and it was hidden behind a spoiler).
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm not sure I understand. If I received the same letter, I would have thrown it into the trash can and said "I have pursued Justice and determined that the summons had no foundations of truth!" within the context of my signature

So you would not attempt a Just look at what was offered? Strange, very strange indeed!

I see the Bible offers we need to pursue justice.

1 Thessalonians 5:21
But test everything; hold fast what is good.

1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Regards Tony
 
Last edited:

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
This OP is about the choice of those that represent a Faith. Starting at the leader, on to the priests, and down to all those that have a appointed responsibility of guiding the followers. No matter what faith, no matter what these leaders are called. It is aimed at addressing those that have the most influence of the practice of a Faith.

This OP will offer a specific scenario so the Obligations can be considered. The Governance of the Catholic Church will be used as an example, a real life scenario is to be used, a historical event.

This is stated at the onset of this discussion so if you continue, it is your choice, as this OP is about the application of Justice required by a conferred obligation imposed by the position they hold.

The scenario.

The Pope receives Correspondence which contains a Message of deep spiritual significance for all of Christianity. That Message starts;

"O Pope! Rend the veils asunder. He Who is the Lord of Lords is come overshadowed with clouds, and the decree hath been fulfilled by God, the Almighty, the Unrestrained. Dispel the mists through the power of thy Lord, and ascend unto the Kingdom of His names and attributes. Thus hath the Pen of the Most High commanded thee at the behest of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Compelling. He, verily, hath again come down from Heaven even as He came down from it the first time. Beware that thou dispute not with Him even as the Pharisees disputed with Him without a clear token or proof. On His right hand flow the living waters of grace, and on His left the choice Wine of justice, whilst before Him march the angels of Paradise, bearing the banners of His signs. Beware lest any name debar thee from God, the Creator of earth and heaven. Leave thou the world behind thee, and turn towards thy Lord, through Whom the whole earth hath been illumined."


So, a substantial claim has been received, it addressed the very foundations of Faith, the implications are obvious.

Did the Pope, as the Leader of a Faith, have an obligation to pursue Justice and determine if that summons had any foundations of truth?

View attachment 71817

The Question can now be drilled down to all levels of Authority, for all those that have influence as to how others perceive the Faith they follower. Do they likewise have an obligation?

Finally down to the Individual, do they have an Obligation if the same letter included them?

O peoples of the earth! Destroy the abodes of negligence with the hands of power and assurance, and raise up the mansions of true knowledge within your hearts, that the All-Merciful may shed the radiance of His light upon them. Better is this for you than all whereon the sun shineth, and unto this beareth witness He Who holdeth within His grasp the ultimate decree. The Breeze of God hath been wafted over the world at the advent of the Desired One in His great glory, whereupon every stone and clod of earth hath cried out: “The Promised One is come! The Kingdom is God’s, the Mighty, the Gracious, the Forgiving.”

This OP is about the Obligation, not about conversion, is is applicable to all claims made. The material used is an historical fact, nothing more.

This OP comes about, as many try to shift their own obligation to search the truth of a claim, on to the claimant.

Regards Tony
No. And for the same reason I put the hundreds of emails claiming that I have won a $100,000 lottery in my spam folder without clicking the "links" to verify their "truth".
There are literally thousands of messiah and prophet claims being made each year by delusional people, some even gaining quite a lot of followers. It's absurd to take them seriously at all. God can talk directly if he wants to.

'I'm the reincarnation of Jesus'
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think people who make the claim to be interested in truth have the obligation to pursue it if they wish to be free of hypocrisy, however I dont see that as giving them any obligation to accept the whole claims of Baha'u'llah - a portion of which I believe are without adequate truth foundation.

So if your OP wants us to assume Baha'u'llah's claims are completely true you should probably have stated that in your OP (apologies if you did and it was hidden behind a spoiler).

Thank tou for that reply.

The OP is about how much obligation rests on us to determine what is the truth of the matter, it has not anything to do about any subsequent acceptance or rejection of what was offered.

Many discussions with others have indicated they have no burden of responsibility to investigate any claim. Yet the claim may lay that obligation directly upon them.

I used the story of Baha’u’llah, as it is relevant and recorded, we know it happened, that at least some of the recipients did receive the letters. Yet it is applicable in all ages, for all that have claimed and presented a Message. Both true and false prophets.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No. And for the same reason I put the hundreds of emails claiming that I have won a $100,000 lottery in my spam folder without clicking the "links" to verify their "truth".
There are literally thousands of messiah and prophet claims being made each year by delusional people, some even gaining quite a lot of followers. It's absurd to take them seriously at all. God can talk directly if he wants to.

'I'm the reincarnation of Jesus'

So because of the dishonesty of a majority of men, do you see it is justified to reject the one/s that may be giving the truth?

Regards Tony
 
Last edited:

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
To me, messages of any kind can be created but have no significance. Kabir addressed the superficiality of words in a way that for me illustrates the point. The spiritual stature of the one creating the words gives them meaning not the words themselves.

If saying God gave liberation,
saying candy made your mouth sweet,
saying fire burned your feet,
saying water quenched your thirst,
saying food banished hunger,
the whole world would be free.
The parrot gabbles God like a man
but doesn’t know God’s glory.
When he flies off to the jungle,
he’ll forget God.
If you don’t see
if you don’t touch,
what’s the use of the Name?

I see no relationship with this answer to the OP.

Regards Tony
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
So because of the dishonesty of a majority of men, you see it is justified to reject the one that may be giving the truth?

Regards Tony
Claims of giving truth does not work. Actual and tangible achievements are needed. I need to get that million dollar lottery money deposited in my account First and then I can take the lofty email claim of lottery win seriously.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Claims of giving truth does not work. Actual and tangible achievements are needed. I need to get that million dollar lottery money deposited in my account First and then I can take the lofty email claim of lottery win seriously.

How would that ever happen, If you never responded in the first place?

The onus was on you to at least take the first step and respond.

Regards Tony
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
How would that ever happen, If you never responded in the first place?

The onus was on you to at least take the first step and respond.

Regards Tony
No. Its not. The onus is on the one making the claim to prove his claim in an explicit manner. As I said, the money has to be deposited first.
Moses brought the plague and parted the Red Sea and brought the Tablets from the fire mountain. Jesus rose from the Dead. Muhammed United the Arabs for the first time in history. Krishna won the greatest war ever fought in Indian soil. What did this prophet do of similar or greater historical scale?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I think people who make the claim to be interested in truth have the obligation to pursue it if they wish to be free of hypocrisy, however I dont see that as giving them any obligation to accept the whole claims of Baha'u'llah - a portion of which I believe are without adequate truth foundation.

So if your OP wants us to assume Baha'u'llah's claims are completely true you should probably have stated that in your OP (apologies if you did and it was hidden behind a spoiler).
It's like when we see a billboard that says that we need Jesus. A lot of people ignore or try not to think about it. They know who and what's behind it. Some Christians organization that thinks they have the truth and believe that God wants them to share it with everybody. But what's so wrong with it? For some of us we don't believe it's true. A virgin born, dying and rising God/man that is supposedly the only way people can be forgiven of their sins and avoid going to hell. If we get a postcard that says "Jesus died for you", or "God loves you", those of us that know about Christianity and don't believe it, know it's not for us and put the card in the recycle bin.

A lot of are used to hearing the same types of things from other religions too. I suppose the Pope has also. We have our beliefs and aren't looking and don't believe every religious claim that is presented to us. The Baha'i Faith has some good stuff and, to me, some things I don't think are true. How deep and how far do I have to keep investigating when I've already found things that I don't believe in? But I feel the same way when JW's or Mormons come to my door.

I wonder... how many Baha'is toss out the JW pamphlets or other Christian tracts? I can understand why. They have a pretty good idea what it's about and it goes against what they believe. This seems like just another attempt at a Baha'i trying to get people to look into the Baha'i Faith... thinking that once they see what it's about, they will realize it is the truth from God. But Baha'is have a lot of competition for the souls and hearts of people. And part of that is convincing them that the Baha'i Faith has something better and worth looking into.

I wanted to run these things by you, rather than a Baha'i, because I don't believe I get honest answers from Baha'is. I think they are biased and prejudiced against any thoughts and feelings that don't agree with their beliefs. Which, of course, I don't think that's how it's supposed to be, but how it seems to be.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
So you would not attempt a Just look at what was offered? Strange, very strange indeed!

I see the Bible offers we need to pursue justice.

1 Thessalonians 5:21
But test everything; hold fast what is good.

1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Regards Tony
And what is a Christian testing it against? I don't think the Baha'i Faith's claims will get very many Christians to think, "Gee, the Lord Jesus has come back. Let's read about it in this Baha'i book." What the Baha'i Faith, if believed in, will do is take them away from their traditional Christian beliefs that Jesus is God, that he is the only way and the only one who has paid for their sins. Ex-Christians or liberal Christians sure, you got a chance with them. But born-again types of Christians? Why would they leave a religion that they believe is the absolute truth? Plus, they are told to not trust people from other religions, that they are deceived and teaching lies.
 
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