Obama's proposal to go back to the 1967 borders

[Darkness]

You know, for years I have been voting for a left wing party. but they have nothing constructive to offer that I can think of when it comes to the palestinians. the last dramatic offer took place in 2000 by Ehud Barak, and the debates still rage whether it was Arafat's and the Palestinian authority's fault or Ehud Barak's and the Labour's party fault on the failure of the negotiations. one thing is for sure, president Clinton at the time, still holds a serious grudge for a now deceased Arafat and the Palestinians on what he considers turning back on the most virile peace offer in the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Why did I vote for a left wing party?
really simple, down to earth reasons. such as keeping a leash on the religious elements in the country. and making sure our gay community keep on living the life it deserves.
but speaking in all honesty. with the right wing, and with prime ministers such as Benjamin Netanyahu, I know at least where we stand, as a country and as a political public.
we are not interested in big changes in the political negotiations.
I want the Palestinians to know, and I want the Shiites in Lebanon to know as well. that no one is going to make consessions with them. what we do offer, is normal solutions. the kind that they will actually benefit from. my life is good already. their life is not. not because of Israel, but because the life they choose for themselves.
If you take Israel out of the picture. you will notice that all these elements. the Palestinians or Lebanese have been fighting with everyone else anyhow. they have been fighting with the Lebanese, they have been fighting with other Palestinians, they have been fighting with the Egyptians, and with the Jordanians.
puting this simple fact in light, why should Israel treat them any differently, we already got them surrounded, and we have been making all the shots for decades as it is.
they want a normal solution?
sure. absolutely. ahlan wasahlan. we are here and have been waiting for a normal solution from you for decades.
anything else, means going back to the negotiations table and gathering the crumbles of bread.
have you ever seen the differences between a typical liberal Lebanese crowd in its demonstrations, and a typical hezballah supporting Shiite crowd in its demonstrations in Beirut?
we already know there are normative crowds here, who actually beg to live in a normal region. without coups, without resistance movements who use imaginery cards in order to enforce a Shiite lifestyle on a general population.
what prime ministers such as Benjamin Netanyahu do offer in the negotiations with the Palestinians, IS giving up parts of the Jewish homeland, and exchanging lands between the two sides, in order to find the optimal map, where every population rests in the greater boundaries of its nation.



Israel has already gave Gaza strip some years back.
the west bank is more tricky. because it surrounds Jerusalem, it is resting in a much more important region, and its a much larger land. in effect giving back the west bank would narrow Israel into a small strip of land of only a handful of miles.
can you guarantee to me that Palestinian groups will not lob home made rockets at my part of town? can Obama guarantee that?
because going back to the 1967 borders and giving the west bank, means that these Palestinian groups will roam the area just a handful of miles from my town and from my neighborhood.

You offer some good, solid points. The plight of the Palestinian people stems from much more than the creation of the State of Israel and the subsequent occupations. If the Arab League had accepted the U.N. ruling, and had not invaded Israel in 1948, who knows would have happened. The Palestinian people are merely used by the Arab League as an excuse to combat what they see as a foreign entity. The Palestinians in Jordan and Lebanon are abused and treated as second-class citizens. The Arab League does not really care about their plight.

In your opinion, how many of the settlements should remain in Israeli hands and how many would need to be abandoned if there were to be a two-state solution?

 

[Caladan]

In your opinion, how many of the settlements should remain in Israeli hands and how many would need to be abandoned if there were to be a two-state solution?

The settlements are a real pain in the ***. most people here in central Israel have a complete lack of sympathy for these settlements.
what most of us probably agree on is leaving the heavily populated towns as they are, and the minor settlements which make an incrusion into arab land should be disbanded.
the majority of the settlements were populated by ashkenazis, ie. european jews.
I find it ironic that Moroccan, Iraqi, Kurdi, Farsi and other soldiers of mid eastern descent need to put their lives on the line for their adventours.
however, this subject has more complications, when you take Jerusalem into account. as Jerusalem and its areas have space and geographic problems. and most Jews would like to keep these areas, including Jerusalem in a Jewish environment.

You offer some good, solid points. The plight of the Palestinian people stems from much more than the creation of the State of Israel and the subsequent occupations. If the Arab League had accepted the U.N. ruling, and had not invaded Israel in 1948, who knows would have happened. The Palestinian people are merely used by the Arab League as an excuse to combat what they see as a foreign entity. The Palestinians in Jordan and Lebanon are abused and treated as second-class citizens. The Arab League does not really care about their plight.

You are of course right. the Arab league has used those arabs it has called the palestinians at every turn.
these days however, many arabs feel much more comfortable talking about normal relations with israel, or with israelis in general.
i want the same arabs who talk about the refugee problems of the palestinians in palestine, to talk about the hundreds of thousands of palestinians who have gained refugees status by the gulf states. who have been mistreated in lebanon, jordan, egypt and other arab states.
you cant divide a palestinian problem, if you talk about these people as a palestinian people, as a state, or as a nation.
when are they palestinians? only when we talk about the palestinians and the israelis?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

You are of course right. the Arab league has used those arabs it has called the palestinians at every turn.
these days however, many arabs feel much more comfortable talking about normal relations with israel, or with israelis in general.
i want the same arabs who talk about the refugee problems of the palestinians in palestine, to talk about the hundreds of thousands of palestinians who have gained refugees status by the gulf states. who have been mistreated in lebanon, jordan, egypt and other arab states.
you cant divide a palestinian problem, if you talk about these people as a palestinian people, as a state, or as a nation.
when are they palestinians? only when we talk about the palestinians and the israelis?

"Palestinians" are the descendants of those displaced at the formation of Israel.
For what ever reason they now find them selves as refugees in many Arab states.
Their number have of course grown to many times the size of those originally dispossessed.
It is a problem that will not go away.

Those in the west bank and Gaza have many of the attributes of statehood, that will become increasingly recognised by the world at large.
Eventually a two state solution is inevitable. when it does come, those that are now dispersed will return to their "Homeland" Just as the Jewish Diaspora have returned to theirs.

This will result in a similar pressure for new Palestinian settlements.

If this outcome is not recognised as inevitable, and suitable plans and compromises made very soon, then further bloodshed is also inevitable.

 

[Caladan]

"Palestinians" are the descendants of those displaced at the formation of Israel.
For what ever reason they now find them selves as refugees in many Arab states.
Their number have of course grown to many times the size of those originally dispossessed.
It is a problem that will not go away.

We all know the history of the situation. we live here. for some reason you want to contain the palestinians into 1948 and an Arab israeli conflict.
the problems of the palestinians today stretch to various regions. iraq, the gulf states, the nations around israel.
the palestinians have had political disputes with all these states, and with their governing bodies.
if you want to go back in time to 1948 and confront this problem. I suggest you bring the british troops back to palestine, where they were part of the problem.

Those in the west bank and Gaza have many of the attributes of statehood, that will become increasingly recognised by the world at large.
Eventually a two state solution is inevitable. when it does come, those that are now dispersed will return to their "Homeland" Just as the Jewish Diaspora have returned to theirs.

everyone in Israel understands that the two state solution is the only option. its not a secret, or big news. everyone here and everywhere has been talking about this for decades now.
when you talk about the palestinian refugees however, you need to realize where is it that they are coming back to, and how many of them are planning to come back to palestine, and how many of them will the governing bodies of the israeli state will allow to return.
is it the gaza strip and the west bank? or are you talking about a romantic return to 'all of palestine'.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

We all know the history of the situation. we live here. for some reason you want to contain the palestinians into 1948 and an Arab israeli conflict.
the problems of the palestinians today stretch to various regions. iraq, the gulf states, the nations around israel.
the palestinians have had political disputes with all these states, and with their governing bodies.
if you want to go back in time to 1948 and confront this problem. I suggest you bring the british troops back to palestine, where they were part of the problem.

Displaced people, who are not integrated, always become a problem where ever they are. The politics of the situation is always self fulfilling. A "no hope" situation always ends in violence.

everyone in Israel understands that the two state solution is the only option. its not a secret, or big news. everyone here and everywhere has been talking about this for decades now.
when you talk about the palestinian refugees however, you need to realize where is it that they are coming back to, and how many of them are planning to come back to palestine, and how many of them will the governing bodies of the israeli state will allow to return.
is it the gaza strip and the west bank? or are you talking about a romantic return to 'all of palestine'.

The British were saddled with the Palestinian problem by the league of nations. the main terrorists at the time were the Jews. Britain failed to find a long term solution.

The territory being fought over today is the same as it has always been, less the kingdom of Jordan. The number of Palestinians eventually coming back, will not be the responsibility of the Government of Israel, It will be he responsibility of the new state of Palestine. I doubt the Palestinians have any Idea how large the number of the descendants of the disposed now are. they plainly would never fit in the space available.

I purposely did not offer a solution ... I do not have one.
But as world populations increase, it will become a more and more difficult one to solve.

 

[Bismillah]

I want the Palestinians to know, and I want the Shiites in Lebanon to know as well. that no one is going to make consessions with them. what we do offer, is normal solutions. the kind that they will actually benefit from. my life is good already. their life is not. not because of Israel, but because the life they choose for themselves.

There is nothing beneficial of giving the Palestinians a hodge-podge of discontiguous land while seizing the areas resources and then leaving IDF bases entrenched throughout Palestine. It is setting up any future country for failure. If the Israelis are not willing to make the "large" concession of ceasing the colonisation of the W.B before the resumption of any serious negotiations then it is obvious that these talks with the American broker are not working. There needs to be a new medium, as the Palestinians have seen.

I am largely convinced that Israel has no interest in offering any solutions at all, it plays right into its interests to keep the status quo as it is.

 

[Caladan]

Displaced people, who are not integrated, always become a problem where ever they are. The politics of the situation is always self fulfilling. A "no hope" situation always ends in violence.

Before we can even talk about integration. we need to realize that the palestinians are living in territories beyond the borders of 1967 which were part of Jordan and Egypt. they are concentrated in these areas. so other than perhaps Jerusalem, talking about integration is pretty much a dodgy subject.
as for no hope. sure. you are right. there is no hope for the situation. however, can you name me one any conflict around the world which has hope in it?
even when these conflicts are resolved. its not hope that has solved them, its exhausting years of struggle. thats it pretty much.

The British were saddled with the Palestinian problem by the league of nations.

funny.
I could say the same about the israelis being saddled with the palestinian problem by the british.

the main terrorists at the time were the Jews. Britain failed to find a long term solution.

Sorry. in israel we call them resistance. and they removied the british from palestine and this region. unlike the muslim fedayeen.

The territory being fought over today is the same as it has always been, less the kingdom of Jordan. The number of Palestinians eventually coming back, will not be the responsibility of the Government of Israel, It will be he responsibility of the new state of Palestine.

you are going to have to provide links for this problem, so we can discuss it further.

I doubt the Palestinians have any Idea how large the number of the descendants of the disposed now are. they plainly would never fit in the space available.

probably right.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Before we can even talk about integration. we need to realize that the palestinians are living in territories beyond the borders of 1967 which were part of Jordan and Egypt. they are concentrated in these areas. so other than perhaps Jerusalem, talking about integration is pretty much a dodgy subject.
as for no hope. sure. you are right. there is no hope for the situation. however, can you name me one any conflict around the world which has hope in it?
even when these conflicts are resolved. its not hope that has solved them, its exhausting years of struggle. thats it pretty much.
.

The above was in answer to my paragraph below which refers to these situations in general.

Displaced people, who are not integrated, always become a problem where ever they are. The politics of the situation is always self fulfilling. A "no hope" situation always ends in violence.

The dynamic of the situation in northern Ireland was changed politically.
One... by a power sharing agreement.
Two... by talking seriously
Three... by giving hope to both sides.

The northern Ireland situation was caused by the partition of Ireland with out resolving the underlaying conflict.

Today there are still extremists at work. But they are a tiny minority who have lost all meaning in their lives, with the political settlement.

(My own family were seriously involved, having a Prime minister and the lord chief Justice serving at the same time, during the second Government of Northern Ireland. (1st cousins twice removed)
He also held the offices of imperial Grand master of the Orange order, and leader of the Unionist party.)

 

[TalAbrams]

Since WWII we have not been allowed to fight wars to win.
By the same token we do not want Israel to fight to win.
It is not the business of the American Administration to dictate terms to a sovereign nation such as Israel, especially in light of the fact that Israel is our only ally in the middle east.
We Americans are an arrogant and spoiled people with little understanding of other cultures and history.
We seem to be no different than Marie Antoinette, when discussing the problems of other nations.
"Let them eat cake."
I do not hate any individual but do hate certain systems and groups.
Among those would be any religious groups who are intolerant of others to the point of doing harm.
In dealing with those groups I advocate: Kill them all, let God sort them out.

 

[Mathematician]

Are we talking about the Israeli state or the Israelites? I don't think it's too absurd to discuss openly the prospect of castrating a rather blatantly theocratic state. By that same token the Palestinians are just as guilty.

 

[TalAbrams]

I believe the header of israpundit.com is correct.
"THERE IS NO DIPLOMATIC SOLUTION"
Eventually the surrounding nations will attempt to, once again, destroy Eretz Yisrael
and those nations will be decimated unmercifully.
Israel will fight by the rules of its enemies the next time instead of concerning itself with
the wishes of the west.
So be it.

 

[Caladan]

The northern Ireland situation was caused by the partition of Ireland with out resolving the underlaying conflict.

Today there are still extremists at work. But they are a tiny minority who have lost all meaning in their lives, with the political settlement.

You are right. and that is what is going to happen eventually. who knows maybe in a thousand years.
I know that the british went around and divided lands anywhere from the british islands to the middle east. both you guys and us have to live with the aftermath.

 

[Caladan]

Are we talking about the Israeli state or the Israelites? I don't think it's too absurd to discuss openly the prospect of castrating a rather blatantly theocratic state. By that same token the Palestinians are just as guilty.

Israelites honey?
I mean reallllly.

 

[Caladan]

You too abrams. youre living in a biblical era. stop it.
decimate nations?
which nations? most of these nations are countries the israelis have grew up in. iraq, iran, do you have any idea how many jews come from these countries? these are normal countries, with normal people. the dispute with their governments is what it has always been. politics. the middle east. the world's economy.

 

[Darkness]

You too abrams. youre living in a biblical era. stop it.
decimate nations?
which nations? most of these nations are countries the israelis have grew up in. iraq, iran, do you have any idea how many jews come from these countries? these are normal countries, with normal people. the dispute with their governments is what it has always been. politics. the middle east. the world's economy.

An Arab League united against Israel in an all out war is SO 1960's.

 

[Caladan]

An Arab League united against Israel in an all out war is SO 1960's.

you are right. its not uncommon today for arabs and israelis to do politics, business, trade, and scientific research.

 

[Caladan]

There is nothing beneficial of giving the Palestinians a hodge-podge of discontiguous land while seizing the areas resources and then leaving IDF bases entrenched throughout Palestine. It is setting up any future country for failure. If the Israelis are not willing to make the "large" concession of ceasing the colonisation of the W.B before the resumption of any serious negotiations then it is obvious that these talks with the American broker are not working. There needs to be a new medium, as the Palestinians have seen.

a new meduim?
i am interested to hear it. who? the french? maybe the un? they sure had a good time here between dodging israeli war planes and lebanese resistance fighters.

I am largely convinced that Israel has no interest in offering any solutions at all, it plays right into its interests to keep the status quo as it is.

you say it as if its not the case as it has always been. every government in the mid east, and probably anywhere else is interested in keeping a status quo.
let me fill you in. that every country and people do too.

 

[TalAbrams]

Yes, Caladan, I am living in a Biblical era.
And you, Darkness and others are living in a Secular Humanist era.
You tell me to stop? I will only stop when the Palestinans and other Islamic nations stop whining and blaming all their troubles on the Jews.
You ask, "which nations." Any who would seek to harm Israel!
It will always be an "apples/oranges debate unless all parties base their arguments on the same sources.
The God of Torah is my primary resource. I believe the words of Torah and the prophecies in Tanakh.
Therefore, I need not defend that which I did not write.
Those prophecies state, unequivacally, that the surrounding nations of Israel's enemies will be decimated.
Darkness: "An Arab League united against Israel in an all out war is SO 1960's."
Yes, but what is your point? Is it that we are far too civilized now to believe that Islam no longer wants to drive the Jews into the sea?
Can you make an intelligent argument or are you limited to platitudes?
Read the news!

 

[Bismillah]

a new meduim?
i am interested to hear it. who? the french? maybe the un? they sure had a good time here between dodging israeli war planes and lebanese resistance fighters.

Palestinian initiative is pointed directly towards U.N recognition of statehood. If the Palestinians succeed in cleaning house and gaining international legitimacy (as has been the case with India's own surprise approval of the reconciliation between the two major parties) there will be ever increasining pressure on Israel to cease its expansionist aims.

you say it as if its not the case as it has always been. every government in the mid east, and probably anywhere else is interested in keeping a status quo.

A bit dishonest, governments naturally fear upheaval. However, in this specific case that does not hold. The Egyptians sure don't seem to agree with you, nor the Jordanians, nor the general opinion of the modern day Arab.

 

[Caladan]

Yes, Caladan, I am living in a Biblical era.
And you, Darkness and others are living in a Secular Humanist era.

No. we are not. at least I am living in the middle east. I dont know that much about your humanists. I just know a thing or two about moderation.

You tell me to stop? I will only stop when the Palestinans and other Islamic nations stop whining and blaming all their troubles on the Jews.

well in that case. I have to ask. how many Palestinians do you know?
because most of them are pretty much regular people, who work on daily basis.

You ask, "which nations." Any who would seek to harm Israel!
It will always be an "apples/oranges debate unless all parties base their arguments on the same sources.

well. I am afraid you are going to have to elaborate much more than that. just so that I could examine what is it that you know about mid eastern affairs.

The God of Torah is my primary resource. I believe the words of Torah and the prophecies in Tanakh.
Therefore, I need not defend that which I did not write.

Sorry. are you saying that because you are a bible believer, you do not have to answer others about your position?

Those prophecies state, unequivacally, that the surrounding nations of Israel's enemies will be decimated.

I see. and who do you expect to carry out these prophecies?
every day, working, normal citizens. most of whom probably do not share your excitement.

Darkness: "An Arab League united against Israel in an all out war is SO 1960's."
Yes, but what is your point? Is it that we are far too civilized now to believe that Islam no longer wants to drive the Jews into the sea?

You ought to define your problem with Islam. Islam is a big word, it is a faith which encompasses many political observations about the middle east.
putting aside the old farts who used to discuss throwing the jews into the sea as a serious option. you do not expect them to hold critical opinions about the state of Israel? sorry that kind of political discussion wont work with any men. middle easterner or otherwise.