Number of times the word "homosexuality" appears in Baha'i scriptures

[Jim]

... important issues or questions then clearly they can't take their own beliefs that seriously.

Is there any way for me to know when you’re being serious, in what you say about the Baha’i Faith? I have a friendly personal interest in it, but I don’t have any beliefs, or at least I try not to.

 

[Deeje]

But it still stands as evidence that we have produced a better sense of morality than what the Bible gives us. It says if you spare the rod you don't love your child, we say put down the rod and instead show a sense of love that doesn't hurt them.

In days gone by this admonition was taken very literally and abuse happened as people went too far with the "rod". But a good smack on the behind never really hurt anything but our dignity. Discipline can be administered in many ways that are not physical. Some kids respond to a look ar a word...others need stronger discipline. It is very individual. Parents will know if they have more than one child.

An open handed smack is nothing like a closed-fisted punch. One is designed to discipline the other is designed to inflict damage.
There is a big difference between discipline and abuse.

I often think about the law of gravity and how it is like the discipline that Jehovah administers. He has that law in place but if you try to defy it, it will teach you painfully and immediately that there are consequences to your actions.

Slavery - we've banned it but the Bible permits it.

The slavery practiced in Israel was nothing like the cruel slavery practiced in other nations. But slavery was a fact of life in the ancient world. You can't put today's standards on a world that existed thousands of years ago. Besides, what do you think modern corporations are....they are slave drivers. People are slaves to their employers and today parents are the virtual slaves of their children.

Rape - ok throughout the Bible but we have criminalized it.

When was rape ever OK in God's nation?

Religious tolerance - it was considered important enough to make it number one on our list of 10, but god's list of 10 doesn't mention it, but says elsewhere that apostates and those who worship other gods are to be killed.

Hang on...you compare some kind of list that God made with one made by humans? Where will I find these lists?

Apostates and those who deliberately opposed Jehovah by worshipping other gods were of no value to God's nation. They were like "leaven" Jesus said....it ferments the whole lump...like a cancer spreading among the people. You want to kill a cancer before it kills you.

And some places and nations instead of focusing on punishment for crimes focus on rehabilitation instead to make people better members of society instead of better criminals.

God's laws always focused on rehabilitation and more importantly compensation for the victims of crime. Instead of throwing them into jail, the thieves were put to work compensating their victims for what they stole.

Never have we been so sure of tomorrow, so reasonable to assume death in old age, and so sheltered from death being a constant present factor in our lives. Instead of losing all our family, friends, and neighbors when our village is raided, we lose a friend or a loved on to cancer. Even Europe has made it nearly a century without any major internal wars or conflicts.

Is that really progress to you? In this day and age of science and technology and we still lose friends or loved ones to cancer? Heart disease? Diabetes? All are absolutely preventable and curable, but the system that controls our health issues is more focused on making customers and a fat profit than they are in actually curing anything. I don't call that progress at all.

 

[wandering peacefully]

A very accurate assessment, I would say.

Can't quite put my finger on it. Seems to be a combination of never being wrong, avoiding questions or denile about core teachings or giving answers which question the questioner, changing the meanings of common words, doublespeak, lofty ego, and an unrecognized air of superiority.

Not saying any of this is bad and a lot of us have variations of these traits, but it seems a common pattern within this particular belief system. I wonder if it is the teachings which create these patterns or the personality is drawn to the system because of the core teachings. Chicken or egg deal. Of course it may be an inaccurate view of the overall population due to the small sampling size. It is interesting though and I hope no one takes this as an insult because it's not meant to be. Just my observation and personal opinion which obviously could be wrong.

 

[wandering peacefully]

Thankyou, I have been looking onto my Faith for 34 years and have found I have not even scratched the surface. I would offer this from Baha'u'llah;

"The world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System—the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed."

There is further defenition included with the one you posted as to what is a Theocracy, which is, "a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god."

The Baha'i Administrative system is unique and no one word will describe it. There are no priests and it is not here to rule the world, but to guide all spiritually.

If you wish to see it as a theocracy, please do.

Regards Tony

Thanks for your further interest, but because of the excessively long, overly done flowery, doublespeak and contradicting ideas in your prophets writing style, I don't read the unsolicited ones. And when I did ask for specific quotes on specific laws, you didn't want to quote him.

By any stretch of the imagination, the system you are proposing is the very definition of a theocracy. I assure you it is not just my analysis. A priest may be involved in a theocracy but that does not define the meaning of the word. I thought I explained that quite well by showing you the root words and their meaning but I guess I wasn't clear. I apologize. In the simplest words I can think of: a theocracy is a political system where the laws of a God of a particular religion are enforced by the ruling class or ruling organization of the system and members of that system are required to follow those God given laws. Hope that is more clear.

 

[Jim]

@wandering peacefully Some of what annoys people about Baha’is in Internet discussions annoys me too, but the reason I didn’t answer your questions is because I think all you’re looking for is targets for your arrows.

 

[wandering peacefully]

@wandering peacefully Some of what annoys people about Baha’is in Internet discussions annoys me too, but the reason I didn’t answer your questions is because I think all you’re looking for is targets for your arrows.

Sorry you feel that way. I assure you I am only interested in honesty and directness.

 

[Jim]

@wandering peacefully On the other hand, I would be glad for you to shoot some arrows at this post:

Number of times the word "homosexuality" appears in Baha'i scriptures

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But a good smack on the behind never really hurt anything but our dignity. Discipline can be administered in many ways that are not physical. Some kids respond to a look ar a word...others need stronger discipline. It is very individual. Parents will know if they have more than one child.

There is no evidence that corporal punishment works to correct undesired behaviors but rather that it increases the likeliness of several negative outcomes, such as decreased self-esteem and increase in delinquent behavior.

The slavery practiced in Israel was nothing like the cruel slavery practiced in other nations.

Apologetics doesn't pardon owning someone as property, and being permitted to beat them as severely as you want so long as you don't kill them and they recover after a few days.

When was rape ever OK in God's nation?

After the Hebrew army sacked a village, the women were considered part of the plunder, and to be kept as sex slaves by the Hebrews. There are instances where a man's wife told her slave to go have sex with her husband.

Hang on...you compare some kind of list that God made with one made by humans? Where will I find these lists?

I tend to do that a lot, and it's what I've been doing here. When we clung to god's rules, we burned people alive because we were so dumb and thought them witches who called upon supernatural powers to alter reality - because though shalt not suffer a witch to live. Today we let people believe whatever they will.

God's laws always focused on rehabilitation

If it were, there would not be so many stern warnings of burning furnaces, lakes of fire, and eternal punishment.

Is that really progress to you? In this day and age of science and technology and we still lose friends or loved ones to cancer? Heart disease? Diabetes? All are absolutely preventable and curable, but the system that controls our health issues is more focused on making customers and a fat profit than they are in actually curing anything. I don't call that progress at all.

Your counter to that is to seriously further my position? Yes, we are more likely to die from heart disease, not because someone ran a sword through it.

 

[Jim]

I assure you I am only interested in honesty and directness.

Then maybe you’ll be honest and direct with me. Have you ever, at any time, honestly and sincerely thought that the Baha’i Faith might possibly be helping to bring peace and harmony to the world?

 

[Jim]

@wandering peacefully Never mind that. What have you been doing or hoping to do, yourself, to help bring peace and harmony to the the world? Are you honestly and sincerely searching for some group that is helping to to bring peace and harmony to the world? Do you honestly and sincerely think that the Baha’i Faith might possibly be doing that?

 

[oldbadger]

Is there any way for me to know when you’re being serious, in what you say about the Baha’i Faith? I have a friendly personal interest in it, but I don’t have any beliefs, or at least I try not to.

Jim, apart from that one facetious post to @Vinayaka I can assure you that each and every post about Bahai has been meant.
All I can see in Bahai now is Double-think and Double-talk. Can't trust it now. Can't........

 

[Jim]

Jim, apart from that one facetious post to @Vinayaka I can assure you that each and every post about Bahai has been meant.
All I can see in Bahai now is Double-think and Double-talk. Can't trust it now. Can't........

Somehow in a flash this one post changed everything for me, with you. I’ve been scoffing at some things you’ve said, but now I might want to treat what you say more seriously.

 

[oldbadger]

Somehow in a flash this one post changed everything for me, with you. I’ve been scoffing at some things you’ve said, but now I might want to treat what you say more seriously.

Fair enough...........
I tell you straight, that in my opinion Bahai has more double-think and double-talk within it than any other religion that I know of.

Try this........ select any three 'things' about Bahai that you choose, from history, policies, writings, tenets, struggles...... any three about anything. See if you can show them in single paras or very short precis. Post them to me, and allow me to comment upon them.

And as far as this thread goes, the Bahai policies towards LGBTQ people prove that it is a dark ages religion with dark ages tenets....... not fit for this modern age of sexual freedom. You can include Bahai ideas about sex, marriage, divorce, children, education into the sexual problems section if you like.

Let's talk......

 

[Jim]

@oldbadger Sorry, that isn't what I meant. I meant that I'm feeling more friendly and sympathetic towards you. When I see you saying things against the Baha'i Faith that look reckless and poorly informed to me, I'll see it coming from a deeper place than where I've seen it coming from before, behind the blind hatred, and I won't scoff at it any more.

 

[Jim]

Try this........ select any three 'things' about Bahai that you choose, from history, policies, writings, tenets, struggles...... any three about anything. See if you can show them in single paras or very short precis. Post them to me, and allow me to comment upon them.

I wasn't volunteering for a debate, but if you want to you can choose any three things that I've said about the Baha'i Faith or learning to follow Baha'u'llah, or any three things you want to say against the Baha'i Faith, and we can discuss those. Also, maybe you'd like to comment on my new thread: A way to learn the truth about the Baha’i Faith.

"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated."

All your base are belong to us!

ETA:

Also, I was hoping for some comments from you on my post #180 in this thread.

 

[oldbadger]

@oldbadger Sorry, that isn't what I meant. I meant that I'm feeling more friendly and sympathetic towards you. When I see you saying things against the Baha'i Faith that look reckless and poorly informed to me, I'll see it coming from a deeper place than where I've seen it coming from before, behind the blind hatred, and I won't scoff at it any more.

That's cool.......
Oh, I don't hate Bahai........ I don't need to hate Bahai because it's never had any hold over me at all. Some have thrown gravest insults, but that isn't a prob for me.... I've never reported anybody for insulting me.

I just investigated a few of its claims and came up with misinformations and such..... which caused me to look more deeply.

And Jim, if I was wrong then any Bahai would have been able to put me right, but so far, they get cornered over various deceptions uncovered and back away.

 

[oldbadger]

I wasn't volunteering for a debate, but if you want to you can choose any three things that I've said about the Baha'i Faith or learning to follow Baha'u'llah, or any three things you want to say against the Baha'i Faith, and we can discuss those. Also, maybe you'd like to comment on my new thread: A way to learn the truth about the Baha’i Faith.

"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated."

All your base are belong to us!

ETA:

Also, I was hoping for some comments from you on my post #180 in this thread.

Oh really good! I'll go and find your thread and start reading later today.
For now 'll just go to post 180 and have another look.
OB

 

[oldbadger]

I have a new interest now in discussing what Baha’is and Baha’i writings say, and more importantly, do not say, about homosexuality, but I’m not sure why. It might be to learn more about the possibilities in Internet discussions, for what I might want to do.

First I’ll try again to get all my cards out on the table. I missed a few last time.

I see a prohibition in Baha’i scriptures against any man, regardless of his orientation, inserting his penis into another man’s anus, or if not that, against making that part of any social institution, formal or informal. I would not agree for all Baha’i marriage laws to be imposed on any couple other than a man and a woman. I object to calling that a prohibition against homosexuality, because I think that “homosexuality” means a lot more than that to most people. I think that helps popularize false ideas about what is prohibited in some religious scriptures, which I think has harmful consequences.

Apart from those exceptions, I don’t think that the healthfulness or morality of any romantic or sexual feelings, impulses or even behavior, has anything to do with anyone’s sex type or gender. Apart from those exceptions, I don’t see any prohibition in Baha’i scriptures against anything that anyone calls “marriage” between two men or two women.

Even though I see a prohibition in Baha’i scriptures against that one interaction between two men, I don’t think that’s something that Baha’i institutions should be trying to enforce. I’m not sure any of them do any more. I haven’t seen any reports of Baha’i institutions trying to enforce that prohibition in the last fifteen years or more.

I’ve never seen any Baha’i on the Internet who agrees with me about all that. Most of the Baha’is that I’ve seen discussing it either say that the prohibition is against all sexual relationships between two men or two women, or say that there’s no prohibition at all, and that it’s wrong and anti-gay for Baha’i institutions to refuse to put a “Baha’i” stamp on same-sex marriages. I’ve also seen a few Baha’is who openly and shamelessly promote the idea that same-sex romantic and sexual feelings and impulses are despicable in themselves, and despised by God.

Hello Jim......
I did read this before, and got the impression that you think that married gay women don't get involved in what Bahauallah wrote. Indeed, I knew a gay couple who did not 'couple' in the way that you described.... they made love in other ways. etc etc........

But Jim, since Bahai bans sex before marriage (dreadful!) and encourages births of lots of Bahai children, I don't think that you'll get much empathy from Bahai.

The 'no sex before marriage' is bad, very bad, because today couples can couple safely, and couples need to be sure that their intended partner is a perfect match in every way.

I knew a Bahai woman who married, and once pregnant she left him, telling everybody about what dreadful things he wanted to do with her etc........ he was an accountant with assets so maybe that might have attracted her initially? Couples need to know each other before they marry. Back in the day this would have been high risk because of illness transmission, hence the OT laws, I think.

 

[Jim]

I did read this before, and got the impression that you think that married gay women don't get involved in what Bahauallah wrote.

I don't think that their marriage status and orientation have anything to do with it. No matter if they're married or not, no matter if they're gay, straight, bisexual, asexual, pansexual, trans, or any other category, if they can't physically couple that way, there's nothing they can do that's strictly prohibited, in my understanding of my scriptures.

Indeed, I knew a gay couple who did not 'couple' in the way that you described.... they made love in other ways. etc etc........

As long as isn't as I described, I don't think it's prohibited. I'm not saying anything about the healthfulness or morality of it, for the partners or for society, just that I don't see any strict prohibition against it in my scriptures, and that the healthfulness or morality of it has nothing to do with anyone's sex type or gender.

But Jim, since Bahai bans sex before marriage (dreadful!) and encourages births of lots of Bahai children, I don't think that you'll get much empathy from Bahai.

I'm not sure what I think about saying that it bans sex before marriage. In my reading of my scriptures, the first procreative union between two people is marriage, by definition. That's what makes a man and a woman husband and wife. That's the definition of "husband" and "wife." The first time any man and any woman interact in that way, they become husband and wife, by definition, and they are bound by the marriage laws. I think that If they're following Baha'u'llah, they would need to go through a year of patience before they could couple that way with anyone else.

 

[wandering peacefully]

@wandering peacefully Never mind that. What have you been doing or hoping to do, yourself, to help bring peace and harmony to the the world? Are you honestly and sincerely searching for some group that is helping to to bring peace and harmony to the world? Do you honestly and sincerely think that the Baha’i Faith might possibly be doing that?

Hi Jim. That's a tough one. I really believe after many years, that world peace is just not possible anytime soon. Maybe never. It saddens me greatly but I don't let it depress me anymore. I can't.

I would say the number one reason is greed followed by ego, self preservation, tribe mentality and lastly belief. Maybe not in that exact order except for greed. That will always be the top attribute which prevents world peace. And frankly, there is not a thing you or I can or any well meaning group can do about it.

People can only bring themselves inner peace which when lived as a lifestyle has a way of spreading to those you encounter in your every day life. And I believe it also allows a clarity of what is really going on in our daily life and our world. I try change what I can with letters to my representatives and participating in my local town politics as well as state politics. I try to do what I can to help change actions and policies which just don't seem fair or just.

I chose a profession which helps my clients feel better. And if they ever ask, I suggest Buddha's teaching and a mindfulness lifestyle. I show my children love and teach my grandchildren about nature and the environment.

I admit, I don't have enough energy left to try to find a new religion or try to form a group who can bring world peace. If that were even possible.

You seem like a nice man and one who is really interested in getting involved with a group to provide help to others. You asked so I will be honest with you. No, I do not believe Baha'I is the answer to world peace. Not now and not ever. I'm not sure how you got mixed up in it but it sounds like you do not agree with a lot of the core laws and teachings or with the behavior of other members. Can you honestly say you believe your religion is the answer?

My suggestion for you is to find a local humanist society and join, take some classes on mindfulness and study Buddha's original teachings. Not the ensuring religions, just the teachings.

Then really reevaluate whether or not the Baha'I religion is truly the answer to the questions you are asking.