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Number of times the word "homosexuality" appears in Baha'i scriptures

Jim

Nets of Wonder
Zero, in any Baha'i scriptures that I've ever seen or heard of.

ETA:

More precisely, I've never been able to find the word "homosexuality" in the writings of Baha'u'llah or Abdul'l-Baha, or in any books or letters from Shoghi Effendi other than private responses to questions about it from individuals.
 
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exchemist

Veteran Member
Zero, in any Baha'i scriptures that I've ever seen or heard of.

ETA:

More precisely, I've never been able to find the word "homosexuality" in the writings of Baha'u'llah or Abdul'l-Baha, or in any books or letters from Shoghi Effendi other than private responses to questions about it from individuals.
Nor does it appear in the bible (Jewish OT or Christian NT). I doubt it appears in the Koran either. What is the issue?
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
Nor does it appear in the bible (Jewish OT or Christian NT). I doubt it appears in the Koran either. What is the issue?
My issue is that I keep seeing Baha'is telling other people that there is a prohibition against homosexuality in the Baha'i Faith. "Homosexuality" has many meanings. The only meaning of "homosexuality" that I know of that might apply to a prohibition that I see in Baha'i scriptures, does not include most of what "homosexuality" means to people in debates about gays and homosexuality.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Are you asking that for moderation purposes?
I'm not a moderator. But, seeing as this is a discussion forum, I'm here to read and selectively take part in discussions. So I presumed you had something to discuss.

Ah, I see you have now raised a discussion point, in post 6. Fair enough then.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
My issue is that I keep seeing Baha'is telling other people that there is a prohibition against homosexuality in the Baha'i Faith. "Homosexuality" has many meanings. The only meaning of "homosexuality" that I know of that might apply to a prohibition that I see in Baha'i scriptures, does not include most of what "homosexuality" means to people in debates about gays and homosexuality.
I'm a bit surprised to learn this is said about Baha'i. In the Judaeo-Christian scriptures there seems to be only one reference to prohibiting homosexuality (not obviously using that word, as it would not have then existed) and that is buried in the OT somewhere. Jesus never said a word about it. The fuss about homosexuality in Christianity has obviously been added later, by people who disapproved of it. It seems to be bound up with the theological idea of the "Natural Law", a very dubious concept in my opinion, dreamt up by priests who knew little or nothing about nature.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
Let's forgive the baha'is for being indirect.?
If you mean "imprecise," I'll agree that they're being imprecise, and I think with grievous consequences.

Here, precisely, is what some Baha'is are calling a "prohibition against homosexuality":

"It is forbidden you to wed your fathers' wives. We shrink, for very shame, from treating of the subject of boys."

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 58)

There are also some denunciations of "sodomy" in Baha'i scriptures, which of course is wide open to interpretation.

That's all I've ever seen or heard of in Baha'i scriptures, that anyone could be calling a "prohibition against homosexuality." I have never seen or heard of any prohibition against any kind of sexual intimacy between two men or two women, apart from whatever "sodomy" might mean.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
I'm a bit surprised to learn this is said about Baha'i.
@Jim
I am surprised to find it questioned.

I don't know a zillion Bahais. But I have known several through the years and they all said the same thing. "I don't care, but Bahais are taught that it's wrong. But that doesn't matter to civic policies. We support equality before the law".

That works for me.

However, I always thought it was Official Teaching.
Tom
 

Regiomontanus

Ματαιοδοξία ματαιοδοξιών! Όλα είναι ματαιοδοξία.
Zero, in any Baha'i scriptures that I've ever seen or heard of.

ETA:

More precisely, I've never been able to find the word "homosexuality" in the writings of Baha'u'llah or Abdul'l-Baha, or in any books or letters from Shoghi Effendi other than private responses to questions about it from individuals.


Hello. How much of those writings have been translated into English? Just curious.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
My issue is that I keep seeing Baha'is telling other people that there is a prohibition against homosexuality in the Baha'i Faith. "Homosexuality" has many meanings. The only meaning of "homosexuality" that I know of that might apply to a prohibition that I see in Baha'i scriptures, does not include most of what "homosexuality" means to people in debates about gays and homosexuality.
Please correct me if I am mistaken, but it seems to me that you are saying that you think that Bahais should generally feel free to approve of LGBT, among other reasons because there are no clear references to LGBT in the canonical core writings, and therefore no clear directives for disapproval.

It may also be that you feel that while many or perhaps most Bahais think of LGBT as worth of some form of restriction or disapproval, that stance is based more on tradition or simple conservatism than on doctrine proper. It could and perhaps should change, even quickly.

Does that feel somewhat in line with what you mean?

I have seen fairly similar attitudes among Christians, and I for one welcome them.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
Please correct me if I am mistaken, but it seems to me that you are saying that you think that Bahais should generally feel free to approve of LGBT, among other reasons because there are no clear references to LGBT in the canonical core writings, and therefore no clear directives for disapproval.

It may also be that you feel that while many or perhaps most Bahais think of LGBT as worth of some form of restriction or disapproval, that stance is based more on tradition or simple conservatism than on doctrine proper. It could and perhaps should change, even quickly.

Does that feel somewhat in line with what you mean?.
Possibly. I don't think that Baha'is or Baha'i institutions should be any more concerned about same-sex sexual activities than they are about masturbation (which if you think about it is a kind of homosexuality), apart from whatever Baha'u'llah meant by "the subject of boys, and whatever "sodomy" means. Personally, I think the sexual prohibitions are, and always have been, about regulating the use of penises, and not at all about regulating sexual stimulation.

I don't think it will ever be possible for a marriage between two women or two men to be certified by Baha'i institutions as a "Baha'i marriage," but I don't see any prohibition in Baha'i scriptures against two women or two men calling their relationship "marriage," or having it certified as a marriage by the civil government. I don't see how it would be possible to apply all the Baha'i marriage laws to two men or two women, and even if it were possible, I think it would needlessly restrict their freedom. I've never heard of any same-sex couple who wanted all the Baha'i marriage laws to be applied to them, and I don't see why any same-sex couple ever would want that. For example, how many of them would want to be required to have their parents' permission to marry?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I found five for "adultery." Three or four for "steal." I found a passage about penalties for a thief.
Great, and thank you.

Could you now include marriage and site the references? Or at least 4 of them?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
how many of them would want to be required to have their parents' permission to marry?
I have a bit of a problem with restrictions that differentiate LGBT rights from those of other people, even when they appear to favor the LGBT.

That may appear harmless at first glance, but I don't think that is quite true.

If nothing else, I would expect some difference in mutual trust and treatment when the parents are not involved. Sometimes that may be a good thing, sometimes that may be a bad thing instead. Some form of flexibilization or choise would probably be a good thing.

But the choice should not be based on whether the people involved are LGBT.
 
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