Nothing Exists

[Willamena]

We're talking about reality not magic

We're talking both, but that's another story.

How would it be possible to play with the reality behind something that is? Sure you can mess around with your opinions on what it is, but for one what is real is real, there's no changing that. Therefore you cannot change objective.

Let alone, even if you could, we have no objective perspective at all, being that it is all filled with subjective perspective.

Because you're not playing with a reality "behind something that is," you're playing with a reality defined by "what really is." We know reality.

"Behind what is" is nothing.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

We're talking both, but that's another story.



Because you're not playing with a reality "behind something that is," you're playing with a reality defined by "what really is." We know reality.

"Behind what is" is nothing.

Yes and you can't change reality in that case because for one it is what it is, it is what it really is. For two, we don't even know objective reality, therefore the only reality we live in is the subjective one.

 

[swamplizard]

Yes and you can't change reality in that case because for one it is what it is, it is what it really is. For two, we don't even know objective reality, therefore the only reality we live in is the subjective one.

Hi sum,

Perhaps we live in reality, but pretend otherwise (subjective).

best,
swampy

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Hi sum,

Perhaps we live in reality, but pretend otherwise (subjective).

best,
swampy

Yes, that's what I mean, but we aren't really pretending, more like believing in our own lie.

 

[Willamena]

Yes and you can't change reality in that case because for one it is what it is, it is what it really is. For two, we don't even know objective reality, therefore the only reality we live in is the subjective one.

The best part of that is that there's nothing to change.

 

[Willamena]

Yes, that's what I mean, but we aren't really pretending, more like believing in our own lie.

You can't pretend if there's nothing else, unless you pretend there's something else.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

The best part of that is that there's nothing to change.

Then what did you mean by this

you own "objective." It's yours to hold. It's yours to lift in your hand, and turn it left, or right, or even upside down if you want. It's yours.

You can't pretend if there's nothing else, unless you pretend there's something else.

Why do you assume there isn't anything else? I admit to it because we have consciousness, it must come from somewhere

 

[Willamena]

Then what did you mean by this

"Objective" is one of the many perspectives by which we structure the world that we know in order to express it. "Objective" is the perspective that expresses truth about things. You own that perspective, and you can use it anytime you need to express truth about things. You also own "subjective," and can use it to express a truth about how you feel about things. Both are useful, both are tools available to you.

Neither is false.

Why do you assume there isn't anything else? I admit to it because we have consciousness, it must come from somewhere

Because if there was, we'd believe that there was, and wouldn't that make it "subjective"? (the way you use the word)

 

[The Sum of Awe]

"Objective" is one of the many perspectives by which we structure the world that we know in order to express it. "Objective" is the perspective that expresses truth about things. You own that perspective, and you can use it anytime you need to express truth about things. You also own "subjective," and can use it to express a truth about how you feel about things. Both are useful, both are tools available to you.

Neither is false.

I still don't think you understand me when I say "the existence is objective"

Objectivity is the truth about things because it expresses that. Subjectivity is, as you even said, how one feels about things. We feel something about something, but just because we feel that way about something doesn't mean it's true, and the fact that other people feel differently towards that something proves it is not true.

The fact that you feel that way about something is objective and true. It isn't subjective that you feel a certain way about something, it is objective because it expresses the truth about things, about how you feel about it.

So the fact that you feel that way about something is true and is objective. The feeling isn't true and subjective.

Because if there was, we'd believe that there was, and wouldn't that make it "subjective"? (the way you use the word)

I'm not using the word any differently than you, I think you're just not understanding what I'm saying.

I'm not saying belief is subjective necessarily in all cases, just that the way you perceive something is subjective.

 

[idav]

I'm not saying belief is subjective necessarily in all cases, just that the way you perceive something is subjective.

There should be a distinction added here, I've probably mentioned it. I agree with things being subjective because how we feel about it but that is after the interpretation. What we actually perceive is a truth about an object, at least as far as external senses goes. When you see something red you are seeing a certain truth about that something.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

There should be a distinction added here, I've probably mentioned it. I agree with things being subjective because how we feel about it but that is after the interpretation. What we actually perceive is a truth about an object, at least as far as external senses goes. When you see something red you are seeing a certain truth about that something.

No, the colour red isn't a truth, another species may see it as a different colour.

 

[idav]

No, the colour red isn't a truth, another species may see it as a different colour.

Do you mind being more specific.

We are seeing a truth. The truth of the color is that the light bouncing off of the object at a certain frequency. We are able to confirm this through various fields of science and various methods of observation. There is a truth behind what we are seeing even if we suck at interpreting it what it really means.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Do you mind being more specific.

We are seeing a truth. The truth of the color is that the light bouncing off of the object at a certain frequency. We are able to confirm this through various fields of science and various methods of observation. There is a truth behind what we are seeing even if we suck at interpreting it what it really means.

Indeed, a human's perception of colors is a subjective process whereby the brain responds to the stimuli that are produced when incoming light reacts with the several types of cone photoreceptors in the eye.

But realize it is still subjective, and is not objectively absolute.

 

[idav]

Indeed, a human's perception of colors is a subjective process whereby the brain responds to the stimuli that are produced when incoming light reacts with the several types of cone photoreceptors in the eye.

But realize it is still subjective, and is not objectively absolute.

I say again "we are seeing a truth". More specifically we perceive a truth even before the mind has a chance to interpret it.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I say again "we are seeing a truth". More specifically we perceive a truth even before the mind has a chance to interpret it.

What exactly is the truth in what we're seeing?

Let's say the red thing you described is a big red yummy apple.

The fact that we see an apple is the only truth in what we're seeing, but we can't avoid the fact that we see something big and yummy and red.

The fact is that we're seeing something as big yummy and red, but big yummy and red are not the facts.

 

[idav]

What exactly is the truth in what we're seeing?

Let's say the red thing you described is a big red yummy apple.

The fact that we see an apple is the only truth in what we're seeing, but we can't avoid the fact that we see something big and yummy and red.

The fact is that we're seeing something as big yummy and red, but big yummy and red are not the facts.

Let me try and go into more detail. Lets say there is a red object that you are looking at. We know that the object is not actually red. We know that it is white light is hitting the object and that the frequency that the atoms are vibrating at cause the light to show a specific color reflecting while the other colors of the spectrum are absorbed. Now truth be told we are mostly empty space so if our eyes could capture at much faster rates we would have a much clearer picture. However we still are seeing a truth about the object. You reasoning that it looks ugly or beautiful or yummy or whatever is a subjective interpretation that happens after the very real process of light reflecting to your eye and giving you a view.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Let me try and go into more detail. Lets say there is a red object that you are looking at. We know that the object is not actually red. We know that it is white light is hitting the object and that the frequency that the atoms are vibrating at cause the light to show a specific color reflecting while the other colors of the spectrum are absorbed. Now truth be told we are mostly empty space so if our eyes could capture at much faster rates we would have a much clearer picture. However we still are seeing a truth about the object. You reasoning that it looks ugly or beautiful or yummy or whatever is a subjective interpretation that happens after the very real process of light reflecting to your eye and giving you a view.

We don't see the process, we see the personal affects of the process.

 

[idav]

We don't see the process, we see the personal affects of the process.

It is a truth and not a personal one. If you compare to another person with the same health and they see the same aspect of truth. You ask me, who is color blind, and could argue that I see less truth than you. Just like with heat sensors and radio wave sensors we are able to see things that are not normally viewable but they most certainly represent a truth about the objects being viewed.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

It is a truth and not a personal one. If you compare to another person with the same health and they see the same aspect of truth. You ask me, who is color blind, and could argue that I see less truth than you. Just like with heat sensors and radio wave sensors we are able to see things that are not normally viewable but they most certainly represent a truth about the objects being viewed.

So the humans viewing the red object is correct on the truth? Or are the birds viewing it as another colour?

 

[idav]

So the humans viewing the red object is correct on the truth? Or are the birds viewing it as another colour?

Well I've heard of birds that not only see color but also see ultraviolet light so I would argue that they are able to detect more truth than us unless we have some device to help us out. Same as an animal that sees color is seeing more than an animal that only sees black and white. That is what science has helped us out with, uncovering the truth.