Not wanting sex is abuse now?

[Curious George]

I've got a different take.

Withholding sex from a spouse (I will speak specifically of married couples) would not be abusive if it was understood that either spouse is free to find that sex elsewhere without repercussions. Kind of like withholding a joke from your spouse: they're free to find something to make them laugh anywhere they want.

However as we all know that it is considered infidelity to get sex from anyone other than from your spouse in almost every culture and by every person. In some countries it is actually illegal. In many others, you can be sued. In most it is considered valid grounds for divorce.
And as we all know divorces are costly, and often the "guilty" party loses the most.

With such implications, withholding sex (purposely, for abusive reasons) is not a minor misdemeanor. It rightly earns its place in the realm of emotional and psychological abuse. Sex is a need! The fact that you won't die from not having it is not relevant. You won't die from not having an education but we know that education is a need. And since each person has a right to expect certain agreed upon needs to be met (if you've agreed with your spouse before your marriage not to have sex then I guess no harm is done), it is a right to have sex.

Having said that I wish to address the concern of those who worry about labeling sex a need and a right and the labeling of withholding sex as abuse. Something being a right does not mean you can take it by force. I have a right to an education: but I still have to wait for a school to accept me before I can get in. I cannot just barge in.
So while a spouse has a responsibility towards their partner fulfill their sexual needs, the onus is on the responsible partner to make themselves available to fill the need. It is not for the other spouse to force it.

Sounds like a lot of twisting. Since you are refining the discussion to married couples, I will further refine it to marriages in the U.S. in the u.s. we have no-fault divorce. Thus, guilty parties are not part of the discussion. So if someone isn't fulfilling needs I would think a divorce is in order. But it is not necessary.moreover, while sex may be a need, what of men who become impotent. What of maladies where sex is painful. What of aversion to sex because of previous sexual abuse?

You marry someone, you are there for sickness and health, no? If it behooves you to break a contract, then do so. If not, well let's not equate it to abuse.

 

[Thanda]

Sounds like a lot of twisting. Since you are refining the discussion to married couples, I will further refine it to marriages in the U.S. in the u.s. we have no-fault divorce. Thus, guilty parties are not part of the discussion. So if someone isn't fulfilling needs I would think a divorce is in order. But it is not necessary.moreover, while sex may be a need, what of men who become impotent. What of maladies where sex is painful. What of aversion to sex because of previous sexual abuse?

You marry someone, you are there for sickness and health, no? If it behooves you to break a contract, then do so. If not, well let's not equate it to abuse.

Yes you do have no fault divorce but they are still costly aren't they? The judges still consider who the misbehaving spouse was in determining custody don't they? Don't pretend getting a divorce is like cancelling a gym membership. What you're saying is tantamount to those who say a women enjoyed being beat up because she stayed when she could have just up and left.

 

[freethinker44]

Yes you do have no fault divorce but they are still costly aren't they? The judges still consider who the misbehaving spouse was in determining custody don't they? Don't pretend getting a divorce is like cancelling a gym membership. What you're saying is tantamount to those who say a women enjoyed being beat up because she stayed when she could have just up and left.

You're not implying that someone being denied sex is tantamount to someone with battered spouse syndrome, are you?

 

[Thanda]

You're not implying that someone being denied sex is tantamount to someone with battered spouse syndrome, are you?

I'm implying that leaving a marriage is costly (not just in terms of money either). And since it is costly intentionally making your partner miserable is abuse.

 

[Curious George]

Yes you do have no fault divorce but they are still costly aren't they? The judges still consider who the misbehaving spouse was in determining custody don't they? Don't pretend getting a divorce is like cancelling a gym membership. What you're saying is tantamount to those who say a women enjoyed being beat up because she stayed when she could have just up and left.

Sleeping around does not affect custody. Sleeping around does not affect financial unless there is a prenuptial agreement. While there are instances where cheating factors into financial distribution, it is not the cheating but the results of the cheating. For instance, if I were cheating on my wife with her business partner and she no longer wanted to work with this partner I could be considered to share responsibility in her not working, which would be different if she just quit because she didn't want to pay me as alimony. You can see here it is not the cheating that affects this but the circumstances and results of the cheating.

But, yes divorce is expensive. But cheating is not expensive (well it doesn't have to be).

People are not trapped as you would have us believe. And while I can acknowledge that there may be some obstacles, these obstacles are not so great as to merit your argument for abuse.

 

[Thanda]

People are not trapped as you would have us believe. And while I can acknowledge that there may be some obstacles, these obstacles are not so great as to merit your argument for abuse.

Have you been divorced? Have you felt the trauma of divorce? Have you seen the the pain children go through when their parents divorce (I have)? These considerations are not just "some obstacles". They are massive obstacles. I don't know what kind of person you are to think divorce is some quick fix, painless solution.

 

[Curious George]

Have you been divorced? Have you felt the trauma of divorce? Have you seen the the pain children go through when their parents divorce (I have)? These considerations are not just "some obstacles". They are massive obstacles. I don't know what kind of person you are to think divorce is some quick fix, painless solution.

I did not say quick fix, painless solution. That my friend would probably be an affair. But if some morality or other impediment prevents you from pursuing extra marital sex, then divorce is probably the way to go.

Yeah sure there is a toll with a divorce. But I'm instances of real abuse, that toll is minor in comparison to the toll of staying together. Better of two evils. If withholding sex did rise to the level of abuse, then there would be no question that a divorce is less costly.

 

[Thanda]

I did not say quick fix, painless solution. That my friend would probably be an affair. But if some morality or other impediment prevents you from pursuing extra marital sex, then divorce is probably the way to go.

Yeah sure there is a toll with a divorce. But I'm instances of real abuse, that toll is minor in comparison to the toll of staying together. Better of two evils. If withholding sex did rise to the level of abuse, then there would be no question that a divorce is less costly.

When abuse happens the first solution that needs to be sought is for the abuse to stop, not a divorce. If a woman is withholding the first solution for her to seek is for her to stop the behaviour. Let's work harder try to find ways to keep people together rather than saying "just get a divorce".

 

[Curious George]

When abuse happens the first solution that needs to be sought is for the abuse to stop, not a divorce. If a woman is withholding the first solution for her to seek is for her to stop the behaviour. Let's work harder try to find ways to keep people together rather than saying "just get a divorce".

Nope, abuse is a deal breaker. You punch your wife in the face or she punches you...that is it. Moms diddling the kids...deal breaker. Dad's locking them in the closet...deal breaker. Dad rapes mom...deal breaker. Mom rapes dad....deal breaker. Doesn't matter how you cut it. If abuse-real abuse- occurs. The victim needs to get out. No second chances, no discussion, no anything. It is done.

 

[Thanda]

Nope, abuse is a deal breaker. You punch your wife in the face or she punches you...that is it. Moms diddling the kids...deal breaker. Dad's locking them in the closet...deal breaker. Dad rapes mom...deal breaker. Mom rapes dad....deal breaker. Doesn't matter how you cut it. If abuse-real abuse- occurs. The victim needs to get out. No second chances, no discussion, no anything. It is done.

Okay, let's agree to disagree then.

 

[Deidre]

I think I vaguely get where your coming from. I can imagine a scenario in which a partner withholds intimacy in general, in a sort of twisted and misleading way. Relationships can be emotionally damaging in lots of ways. But I wouldn't hold a rejection of intimacy as abuse in an legalized sense of the word.

Bingo...that's it. I have known couples who have manipulated others in this way, and it can be hurtful. Falling in love is a dangerous sport.

 

[Deidre]

Okay, let's agree to disagree then.

Abuse is different than a mere disagreement, or heated argument. Abusers typically are hard pressed to change. Abusers usually don't know how to change, that's not to say that there aren't exceptions. But, if you're getting beaten, or if you are emotionally/verbally abused on a daily basis, you would be wise to leave such a nightmare relationship. I don't want to change someone, I want them to come to the relationship healthy and whole. Everyone has problems, but a man isn't taking his problems out on my face.

 

[Thanda]

Abuse is different than a mere disagreement, or heated argument. Abusers typically are hard pressed to change. Abusers usually don't know how to change, that's not to say that there aren't exceptions. But, if you're getting beaten, or if you are emotionally/verbally abused on a daily basis, you would be wise to leave such a nightmare relationship. I don't want to change someone, I want them to come to the relationship healthy and whole. Everyone has problems, but a man isn't taking his problems out on my face.

Okay. I do believe everyone owes themselves to at least try. We were discussing with a friend of mine and we agreed (she is a lady) that though we talk big about how if a spouse ever cheated we would just walk, the truth is we would probably try and find a solution and work things out if at all possible. If my wife started slapping me I would try a considerable list of things before handing her the divorce papers. That's just how much I value my marriage.

 

[Deidre]

Okay. I do believe everyone owes themselves to at least try. We were discussing with a friend of mine and we agreed (she is a lady) that though we talk big about how if a spouse ever cheated we would just walk, the truth is we would probably try and find a solution and work things out if at all possible. If my wife started slapping me I would try a considerable list of things before handing her the divorce papers. That's just how much I value my marriage.

That's noble, I suppose. But, I value myself above a relationship. If someone abuses me...and I allow it, then it's just as much about me, as it is that person. Accepting abuse in the hopes you can fix another person...isn't noble at the end of the day. That's my opinion only of course.

 

[Thanda]

That's noble, I suppose. But, I value myself above a relationship. If someone abuses me...and I allow it, then it's just as much about me, as it is that person. Accepting abuse in the hopes you can fix another person...isn't noble at the end of the day. That's my opinion only of course.

Fair enough.

 

[dust1n]

Bingo...that's it. I have known couples who have manipulated others in this way, and it can be hurtful. Falling in love is a dangerous sport.

Sure. Most of the ways in relationships are painful are just part of life though. If I ask a girl out and she rejects it, it doesn't feel great at all, but it isn't abuse necessarily.

 

[Stevicus]

Having said that I wish to address the concern of those who worry about labeling sex a need and a right and the labeling of withholding sex as abuse. Something being a right does not mean you can take it by force. I have a right to an education: but I still have to wait for a school to accept me before I can get in. I cannot just barge in.

This just gave me an idea, at least in comparing the right to have sex to the right to an education. I agree completely that you can't take it by force, since that violates the rights of another person. However, the government makes sure that the right to an education is strictly enforced, and provides tax dollars for public schools, colleges, as well as student loans, stipends, and scholarships for needy students.

They could do the same thing for sex and set up a government-sponsored system along those lines. Sex workers would no longer be looked down upon, but elevated to the level of civil servants, doing their civic duty to make America a better place. Every citizen over the age of 18 could be issued one free voucher per week. It could work.

 

[Thanda]

This just gave me an idea, at least in comparing the right to have sex to the right to an education. I agree completely that you can't take it by force, since that violates the rights of another person. However, the government makes sure that the right to an education is strictly enforced, and provides tax dollars for public schools, colleges, as well as student loans, stipends, and scholarships for needy students.

They could do the same thing for sex and set up a government-sponsored system along those lines. Sex workers would no longer be looked down upon, but elevated to the level of civil servants, doing their civic duty to make America a better place. Every citizen over the age of 18 could be issued one free voucher per week. It could work.

Make it only married individual and I'll think about it

 

[Deidre]

Sure. Most of the ways in relationships are painful are just part of life though. If I ask a girl out and she rejects it, it doesn't feel great at all, but it isn't abuse necessarily.

I never said it was.

 

[dust1n]

I never said it was.

I didn't mean to insinuate that you did.