Not really a debate but -- I wonder

[YoursTrue]

I wonder what a Jew (not a Jew for Jesus) thinks about a few things, the first is about a resurrection. If you're a Jew, although I know the Sabbath and Passover is coming up, do you believe in a resurrection?

 

[DNB]

I wonder what a Jew (not a Jew for Jesus) thinks about a few things, the first is about a resurrection. If you're a Jew, although I know the Sabbath and Passover is coming up, do you believe in a resurrection?

At the time of Jesus, the Pharisaic jews did believe in a resurrection, whereas the Sadducees did not.
I can't quite remember exactly where, but a considerable amount of prophetical literature in the Old Testament alludes to eternity, I do believe.

 

[YoursTrue]

At the time of Jesus, the Pharisaic jews did believe in a resurrection, whereas the Sadducees did not.
I can't quite remember exactly where, but a considerable amount of prophetical literature in the Old Testament alludes to eternity, I do believe.

Thanks. I'll give that consideration. Offhand, in order to appreciate Isaiah 65, unless one believes in a resurrection, it's hard to envision. Unless we go to transmigrating souls, which I do not think the Bible bears out. When one dies, the entire being dies. Now that I'm remembering that, Job certainly had something to say about that. Job cried out touchingly, Job 14:14 - "
"If a man dies will he come to life?
I would wait all the time I had to serve
till my relief came;"
Beautiful, beautiful sentiment realizing Job's faith in God, his Maker.

 

[joelr]

I wonder what a Jew (not a Jew for Jesus) thinks about a few things, the first is about a resurrection. If you're a Jew, although I know the Sabbath and Passover is coming up, do you believe in a resurrection?

The end times myth and messianic intervention from Persia was syncretically adopted into Jewish theology.
Resurrection for all followers is part of the final war. The Persians were in Judea from 600 B.C - 300 B.C.


End Times in Zoroastrian religion:
but Zoroaster taught that the blessed must wait for this culmination till Frashegird and the 'future body' (Pahlavi 'tan i pasen'), when the earth will give up the bones of the dead (Y 30.7). This general resurrection will be followed by the Last Judgment, which will divide all the righteous from the wicked, both those who have lived until that time and those who have been judged already. Then Airyaman, Yazata of friendship and healing, together with Atar, Fire, will melt all the metal in the mountains, and this will flow in a glowing river over the earth. All mankind must pass through this river, and, as it is said in a Pahlavi text, 'for him who is righteous it will seem like warm milk, and for him who is wicked, it will seem as if he is walking in the • flesh through molten metal' (GBd XXXIV. r 8-r 9). In this great apocalyptic vision Zoroaster perhaps fused, unconsciously, tales of volcanic eruptions and streams of burning lava with his own experience of Iranian ordeals by molten metal; and according to his stern original teaching, strict justice will prevail then, as at each individual j udgment on earth by a fiery ordeal. So at this last ordeal of all the wicked will suffer a second death, and will perish off the face of the earth. The Daevas and legions of darkness will already have been annihilated in a last great battle with the Yazatas; and the river of metal will flow down into hell, slaying Angra Mainyu and burning up the last vestige of wickedness in the universe.


Ahura Mazda and the six Amesha Spentas will then solemnize a lt, spiritual yasna, offering up the last sacrifice (after which death wW be no more), and making a preparation of the mystical 'white haoma', which will confer immortality on the resurrected bodies of all the blessed, who will partake of it. Thereafter men will beome like the Immortals themselves, of one thought, word and deed, unaging, free from sickness, without corruption, forever joyful in the kingdom of God upon earth. For it is in this familiar and beloved world, restored to its original perfection, that, according to Zoroaster, eternity will be passed in bliss, and not in a remote insubstantial Paradise. So the time of Separation is a renewal of the time of Creation, except that no return is prophesied to the original uniqueness of living things. Mountain and valley will give place once more to level plain; but whereas in the beginning there was one plant, one animal, one man, the rich variety and number that have since issued from these will remain forever. Similarly the many divinities who were brought into being by Ahura Mazda will continue to have their separate existences. There is no prophecy of their re-absorption into the Godhead. As a Pahlavi text puts it, after Frashegird 'Ohrmaid and the Amahraspands and all Yazads and men will be together. .. ; every place will resemble a garden in spring, in which


there are all kinds of trees and flowers ... and it will be entirely the creation of Ohrrnazd' (Pahl.Riv.Dd. XLVIII, 99, lOO, l07).


Other doctrines brought into Judaism from Persia:


Doctrines

fundamental doctrines became disseminated throughout the region, from Egypt to the Black Sea: namely that there is a supreme God who is the Creator; that an evil power exists which is opposed to him, and not under his control; that he has emanated many lesser divinities to help combat this power; that he has created this world for a purpose, and that in its present state it will have an end; that this end will be heralded by the coming of a cosmic Saviour, who will help to bring it about; that meantime heaven and hell exist, with an individual judgment to decide the fate of each soul at death; that at the end of time there will be a resurrection of the dead and a Last Judgment, with annihilation of the wicked; and that thereafter the kingdom of God will come upon earth, and the righteous will enter into it as into a garden (a Persian word for which is 'paradise'), and be happy there in the presence of God for ever, immortal themselves in body as well as soul. These doctrines all came to be adopted by various Jewish schools in the post-Exilic period, for the Jews were one of the peoples, it seems, most open to Zoroastrian influences - a tiny minority, holding staunchly to their own beliefs, but evidently admiring their Persian benefactors, and finding congenial elements in their faith. Worship of the one supreme God, and belief in the coming of a Messiah or Saviour, together with adherence to a way of life which combined moral and spiritual aspirations with a strict code of behaviour (including purity laws) were all matters in which Judaism and Zoroastrianism were in harmony; and it was this harmony, it seems, reinforced by the respect of a subject people for a great protective power, which allowed Zoroastrian doctrines to exert their influence. The extent of this influence is best attested, however, by Jewish writings of the Parthian period, when Christianity and the Gnostic faiths, as well as northern Buddhism, all likewise bore witness to the profound effect: which Zoroaster's teachings had had throughout the lands of the Achaernenian empire.


From Mary Boyce PhD, Zoroastrians Their Beliefs and Practices

 

[DNB]

Thanks. I'll give that consideration. Offhand, in order to appreciate Isaiah 65, unless one believes in a resurrection, it's hard to envision. Unless we go to transmigrating souls, which I do not think the Bible bears out. When one dies, the entire being dies. Now that I'm remembering that, Job certainly had something to say about that. Job cried out touchingly, Job 14:14 - "
"If a man dies will he come to life?
I would wait all the time I had to serve
till my relief came;"
Beautiful, beautiful sentiment realizing Job's faith in God, his Maker.

Yes, when one dies, the entire being dies, but God is powerful enough to raise one to life, even into a new body. There were enough resurrections in the OT to attest to that, even Samuel reappeared for a moment.
As it is written '...I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob...' God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Not that anyone who died is alive right now, but on Judgement Day we will all reappear. I believe that many pre-New Testament Jews must have had this notion.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, when one dies, the entire being dies, but God is powerful enough to raise one to life, even into a new body. There were enough resurrections in the OT to attest to that, even Samuel reappeared for a moment.
As it is written '...I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob...' God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Not that anyone who died is alive right now, but on Judgement Day we will all reappear. I believe that many pre-New Testament Jews must have had this notion.

I haven't read all of Maimonides work but I know he believed in a future resurrection. Certainly when Jesus was on the earth he brought his friend Lazarus back to life, not taking his soul from heaven and putting it back into his body, but bringing the person Lazarus back to life.

 

[DNB]

I haven't read all of Maimonides work but I know he believed in a future resurrection. Certainly when Jesus was on the earth he brought his friend Lazarus back to life, not taking his soul from heaven and putting it back into his body, but bringing the person Lazarus back to life.

Yes, that is my understanding also - Biblical resurrections were not an abrupted stay in heaven in order to return to earth, but a revivification from a state of dormancy.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, that is my understanding also - Biblical resurrections were not an abrupted stay in heaven in order to return to earth, but a revivification from a state of dormancy.

I think we basically agree on this. I also want to say that it seems apparent to me that when God said Moses, Abraham were alive to Him, it's because He knew and loved them so well they were one step away from being resurrected when the time comes and He looked forward seeing them again. Take care.

 

[YoursTrue]

At the time of Jesus, the Pharisaic jews did believe in a resurrection, whereas the Sadducees did not.
I can't quite remember exactly where, but a considerable amount of prophetical literature in the Old Testament alludes to eternity, I do believe.

Good point, btw. Around where I live there are very religious Jews who are followers of M. Schneerson. Have you ever heard of him? He died but many were hoping he would be brought back to life on the earth. So far he has not been.

 

[DNB]

I think we basically agree on this. I also want to say that it seems apparent to me that when God said Moses, Abraham were alive to Him, it's because He knew and loved them so well they were one step away from being resurrected when the time comes and He looked forward seeing them again. Take care.

Likewise, agreed!

 

[DNB]

Good point, btw. Around where I live there are very religious Jews who are followers of M. Schneerson. Have you ever heard of him? He died but many were hoping he would be brought back to life on the earth. So far he has not been.

No, I've never heard of him or that movement. I just did a very brief google search on him, but nothing messianic appeared within the first paragraphs so I didn't read any further - the Jews can be a funny people at times.

Thanks!

 

[YoursTrue]

No, I've never heard of him or that movement. I just did a very brief google search on him, but nothing messianic appeared within the first paragraphs so I didn't read any further - the Jews can be a funny people at times.

Thanks!

Yes, there is a big picture of him on a billboard around where I live, his followers were waiting for quite a while by his burial place in New York but to this date he has not arisen from the grave. The Messiah in Brooklyn | Adventist Review

 

[DNB]

Yes, there is a big picture of him on a billboard around where I live, his followers were waiting for quite a while by his burial place in New York but to this date he has not arisen from the grave. The Messiah in Brooklyn | Adventist Review

Well, I guess all religions and denominations have their fringe doctrines and groups. Some of the Christian forums that I have been on enlightened me quite a bit on this fact - it takes all kinds.

Thank you for the article - I'm surprised that I have never heard of the guy or the movement before, especially considering how somewhat prevalent that it was, at least in the Jewish community around the world.

 

[YoursTrue]

Well, I guess all religions and denominations have their fringe doctrines and groups. Some of the Christian forums that I have been on enlightened me quite a bit on this fact - it takes all kinds.

Thank you for the article - I'm surprised that I have never heard of the guy or the movement before, especially considering how somewhat prevalent that it was, at least in the Jewish community around the world.

Right. I lived in certain sections of New York City where orthodox Jews lived and many of them had reverence for this rabbi. There were literally billboards promoting his existence you could see from the highway. So it depends in a way where you lived. There's more about that regarding his gravesite, but the real question is: what qualifies to be a "messiah"? The biblical account of Jesus and what happened before with the Jews and after his appearance makes so much sense to me that it's hard to deny. But that's me and it's obvious not everyone here sees it that way. thanks for your comments also.

 

[Muffled]

I wonder what a Jew (not a Jew for Jesus) thinks about a few things, the first is about a resurrection. If you're a Jew, although I know the Sabbath and Passover is coming up, do you believe in a resurrection?

I suppose one would have to accept the prophets and that Elijah raised a boy from the dead. 1 Kings 17:21-22

 

[DNB]

Right. I lived in certain sections of New York City where orthodox Jews lived and many of them had reverence for this rabbi. There were literally billboards promoting his existence you could see from the highway. So it depends in a way where you lived. There's more about that regarding his gravesite, but the real question is: what qualifies to be a "messiah"? The biblical account of Jesus and what happened before with the Jews and after his appearance makes so much sense to me that it's hard to deny. But that's me and it's obvious not everyone here sees it that way. thanks for your comments also.

Yes, Jesus does qualify, but I can appreciate the learning curve required - I don't think that all the Messianic prophecies in the old Testament are that clear. Even the Ethiopian eunuch had to ask Philip who Isaiah was talking in the verse that he was reading. But, on the other hand, Jesus was quite indignant with the two on the road to Emmaus (Cleopas and his friend), that they were not aware of all the scriptures that referred to him.

For me, Jesus is the Christ more so because of the signs and the principle (God's offer of redemption), than my understanding through the Hebrew Scriptures. But, I*'ve never been that well versed in prophetical verses.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, Jesus does qualify, but I can appreciate the learning curve required - I don't think that all the Messianic prophecies in the old Testament are that clear. Even the Ethiopian eunuch had to ask Philip who Isaiah was talking in the verse that he was reading. But, on the other hand, Jesus was quite indignant with the two on the road to Emmaus (Cleopas and his friend), that they were not aware of all the scriptures that referred to him.

For me, Jesus is the Christ more so because of the signs and the principle (God's offer of redemption), than my understanding through the Hebrew Scriptures. But, I*'ve never been that well versed in prophetical verses.

And it's true that correct understanding can be narrowed or clarified as time goes on. As Proverbs 4:18 puts it, the light can get brighter.
"But the path of the righteous is like the bright morning light
That grows brighter and brighter until full daylight."

 

[YoursTrue]

I suppose one would have to accept the prophets and that Elijah raised a boy from the dead. 1 Kings 17:21-22

I would think so. Thus it seems clear to me that a prophet would perform these things while he was alive on the earth.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, Jesus does qualify, but I can appreciate the learning curve required - I don't think that all the Messianic prophecies in the old Testament are that clear. Even the Ethiopian eunuch had to ask Philip who Isaiah was talking in the verse that he was reading. But, on the other hand, Jesus was quite indignant with the two on the road to Emmaus (Cleopas and his friend), that they were not aware of all the scriptures that referred to him.

For me, Jesus is the Christ more so because of the signs and the principle (God's offer of redemption), than my understanding through the Hebrew Scriptures. But, I*'ve never been that well versed in prophetical verses.

Yes. In order for me to understand scriptures, it's kind of like being the Ethiopian eunuch, who asked how could he understand them unless someone explained them to him? I decided to study with those I trusted and made sense (to me).

 

[DNB]

Yes. In order for me to understand scriptures, it's kind of like being the Ethiopian eunuch, who asked how could he understand them unless someone explained them to him? I decided to study with those I trusted and made sense (to me).

Yes, I've noticed that also, that other people's views have elucidated other options of interpretation on particular passages - no man is an island.