Non-Americans with universal healthcare. Do you prefer your system or privatized like the U.S. Why?

[Jumi]

Americans imagine that “welfare state” means the U.S. welfare system on steroids. Actually, the Nordics scrapped their American-style welfare system at least 60 years ago, and substituted universal services, which means everyone—rich and poor—gets free higher education, free medical services, free eldercare, etc. Universal totally beats the means-testing characteristic of their dreadful old welfare system that they discarded and that the United States still has.

So, properly speaking, in the U.S. context the Nordics should be regarded not as welfare states but as “universal services states.” Nobody has gotten rid of poverty through charity, philanthropy and welfare, whereas poverty can be abolished through universal services.

From the interview "What Americans get wrong about the Nordic model"

 

[Jumi]

Yes, I am against socialism, where initiative and hard work are rewarded with higher taxes ( theft ) and the system deincentivises those with the inclination to reap and not sow.

The per annum amount you quoted is for a private university, not a public one.

So you believe free education isn't socialism. I sometimes have trouble distinguishing what Americans think is socialism. They sometimes imagine we're socialists in Europe or perhaps they're thinking of something like the Soviet Union.

Young Americans believe they must have a college education. They have been taught this by my generation, for whom it was true.

There are many many jobs that go unfilled that require technical training or apprenticeships, well paying jobs that go begging.

We have occupational schools and polytechnic schools for things like that, some private some public. I like the apprenticeship type of system in the US, I think we could learn from that. I think our university system will live longer than the US one though, for good or bad.

On the other hand, graduates with liberal arts degrees, and a plethora of other types of degrees are not in demand for employment, there are too many of them.

We have the same problem. Lots of experts in fields that only support western cultural values, but unemployed or working in completely different fields. Musicians, archaeologists, theologians and such.

A kid who doesn´t want to program computers or be a carpenter, but wants to be an archaeologist from the best private college in the field, borrows hand over fist for 5 or 6 years, then can´t find a job.

I have a friend like this who studied liberal arts for many years, then learned two technical professions. One he had no interest in and low talent and another one that he's great at.

My daughters are both university educated. They both worked as students, just like me, but they each took a student loan. Each repayed their loans within four years.

One has a degree in photography, in journalism, and a graduate degree in anthropology.

You probably have seen some of her photographs from all over the world. She went to public schools.

The other went to a private college and got her degree in fashion design, and is well known in Las Vegas where she designs and her shop builds costumes for the various shows.

They are examples of the American dream, I had the opportunity to pursue it, they were taught a strong work ethic and responsibility and accountability and were able to pursue it themselves.

It's good to hear of their success.

I'd say these are common dreams in all the developed world though, not just American dreams. We have similar things here, a dream about owning a house in the city and another in the country, plot of land where you can grow things and go fishing when you want... most of my relatives have achieved this. The taxes... they're not as rough on us here as you'd think.

 

[shmogie]

Yes, we can talk comparative statistics.

There's a little over 500 million population in the EU. If EU had the same amounts of deaths due to lack of access to healthcare a year, we'd be talking crisis.


I wouldn't call it insignificant. It would be a disaster if we had comparative numbers...


What kind of choices can you make that we can't make in my country? Curious... all I can think of is we can't smoke cannabis here or use snus. So you're a bit more "progressive" on that.


Most likely can't afford it.


The study doesn't seem to count the illegal aliens, it's talking about Americans.


Except according to the FOX news...


We just die older on average than US citizens.


We never meet homeless in my country. We think of them as something that poor countries have.


Aren't a lot of them in jail though, since your country has more inmates per population than any other western country?


Yeah I watched one about US veterans living out of cars and families living out of huts when they got fired. Europe has that kind of problems too, just not my country.


Like what propaganda? Europe isn't a single entity though, reporting in my country is usually more positive about the US than your own news outlets that anyone can watch.

I have lots of relatives in the US who migrated there before the World Wars... mostly on East Coast now. If anything, you hear things are worse than on our news. Both Trump supporters and anti-Trump folks seem to agree on that.

In the US there are lies about Europe being socialist... look, there's even a post made about "socialist" Finland or Sweden every now and then. That's always a laugh...


Is that any different elsewhere, though? Not like the government in my country tells me to do something unless I become unemployed. I can do pretty much anything I like here, except drugs or things illegal in most countries even the US.

Fox news ? I was on the budget committee of a 1,000 bed university for a number of years,I know what the law is, and I know the many millions we wrote off for treating people who didn´t have insurance


You say your study finds that those folk who died are American citizens, not illegals.

I find that curious since under the HIPPA regulations information on patients immigration status cannot be disclosed. I assume that a percentage of these died in a hospital.

One issue not addressed is the amount of money Americans pay in taxes to support and subsidize other nations in the UN and NATO.

We pay more than any other nation on earth for the UN, which in my mind is a waste of time and money, 25 % of it´s operating budget.

NATO, exists to defend Europe. We pay 5% of our GDP to support it and have for decades, we are not in arrears on our payments.

European nations on the other hand are required to pay only 2%. Some nations have never met that goal, like Germany. Some nations have been behind on payments going back years.

I do not resent NATO, but I do resent those who take advantage of our largesse in defending them, where we spend the billions to which we have committed, and they pay less than the small percentage they are supposed to.

We could do some good things domestically if we were paying only 2% like every other country in NATO.

 

[shmogie]

Fox news ? I was on the budget committee of a 1,000 bed university for a number of years,I know what the law is, and I know the many millions we wrote off for treating people who didn´t have insurance


You say your study finds that those folk who died are American citizens, not illegals.

I find that curious since under the HIPPA regulations information on patients immigration status cannot be disclosed. I assume that a percentage of these died in a hospital.

One issue not addressed is the amount of money Americans pay in taxes to support and subsidize other nations in the UN and NATO.

We pay more than any other nation on earth for the UN, which in my mind is a waste of time and money, 25 % of it´s operating budget.

NATO, exists to defend Europe. We pay 5% of our GDP to support it and have for decades, we are not in arrears on our payments.

European nations on the other hand are required to pay only 2%. Some nations have never met that goal, like Germany. Some nations have been behind on payments going back years.

I do not resent NATO, but I do resent those who take advantage of our largesse in defending them, where we spend the billions to which we have committed, and they pay less than the small percentage they are supposed to.

We could do some good things domestically if we were paying only 2% like every other country in NATO.

Note, this should read UNIVERSITY HOSPITAL

 

[Jumi]

Fox news ? I was on the budget committee of a 1,000 bed university for a number of years,I know what the law is, and I know the many millions we wrote off for treating people who didn´t have insurance

You say your study finds that those folk who died are American citizens, not illegals.

I find that curious since under the HIPPA regulations information on patients immigration status cannot be disclosed. I assume that a percentage of these died in a hospital.

In my country such a study would only talk of citizens. Perhaps in the US even non-citizens are all Americans also. It sounds weird to me but I accept it.

One issue not addressed is the amount of money Americans pay in taxes to support and subsidize other nations in the UN and NATO.

We pay more than any other nation on earth for the UN, which in my mind is a waste of time and money, 25 % of it´s operating budget.

A lot of people think that both UN and especially NATO are just US projects. Of course neither of them would function without you. I think there would be more wars and global illnesses would spread to your coutnry and mine without the UN so there's some good in it.

NATO, exists to defend Europe. We pay 5% of our GDP to support it and have for decades, we are not in arrears on our payments.

European nations on the other hand are required to pay only 2%. Some nations have never met that goal, like Germany. Some nations have been behind on payments going back years.

I do not resent NATO, but I do resent those who take advantage of our largesse in defending them, where we spend the billions to which we have committed, and they pay less than the small percentage they are supposed to.

We could do some good things domestically if we were paying only 2% like every other country in NATO.

My country isn't even part of NATO, never has been... I get the US anger for countries part of that who don't follow the rules, though.

 

[shmogie]

So you believe free education isn't socialism. I sometimes have trouble distinguishing what Americans think is socialism. They sometimes imagine we're socialists in Europe or perhaps they're thinking of something like the Soviet Union.


We have occupational schools and polytechnic schools for things like that, some private some public. I like the apprenticeship type of system in the US, I think we could learn from that. I think our university system will live longer than the US one though, for good or bad.


We have the same problem. Lots of experts in fields that only support western cultural values, but unemployed or working in completely different fields. Musicians, archaeologists, theologians and such.


I have a friend like this who studied liberal arts for many years, then learned two technical professions. One he had no interest in and low talent and another one that he's great at.


It's good to hear of their success.

I'd say these are common dreams in all the developed world though, not just American dreams. We have similar things here, a dream about owning a house in the city and another in the country, plot of land where you can grow things and go fishing when you want... most of my relatives have achieved this. The taxes... they're not as rough on us here as you'd think.

Of course you know that America was founded primarily by Europeans, who used European ideals to be the focal point of the Republic.

Most Americans who are of European ancestry. like me, are proud of that ancestry, and the

So you believe free education isn't socialism. I sometimes have trouble distinguishing what Americans think is socialism. They sometimes imagine we're socialists in Europe or perhaps they're thinking of something like the Soviet Union.


We have occupational schools and polytechnic schools for things like that, some private some public. I like the apprenticeship type of system in the US, I think we could learn from that. I think our university system will live longer than the US one though, for good or bad.


We have the same problem. Lots of experts in fields that only support western cultural values, but unemployed or working in completely different fields. Musicians, archaeologists, theologians and such.


I have a friend like this who studied liberal arts for many years, then learned two technical professions. One he had no interest in and low talent and another one that he's great at.


It's good to hear of their success.

I'd say these are common dreams in all the developed world though, not just American dreams. We have similar things here, a dream about owning a house in the city and another in the country, plot of land where you can grow things and go fishing when you want... most of my relatives have achieved this. The taxes... they're not as rough on us here as you'd think.

As you know, we were founded by Europeans with European ideals.

Those with European ancestry are proud of it and the old countries from which we came.

Because of the economic success of our systems, immigrants are drawn to our nations.

Uneducated, unskilled people from a totally different culture.

It appears that in a few generations the language of many European countries will be Arabic, while ours will be Spanish.

Multiculturalism is a very difficult thing to pull off. We have done well to this point, but I worry about the future.

I am happy that you are happy to live in Europe.

I love America and would not want to live anywhere else.

Let´s hope it stays that way.

 

[Shad]

Yep, we have this new ignorant, young faction in the democrat party that has grown up with being supplied with whatever they need.

You ask them to work full time at night and go college full time like I and tens of thousands of my generation did, and they are horrified.

Upper middle class chilren. Yup.

They run up huge student loan debt, which no one forced them to take, then they want the government to bail them out and provide ¨ free¨ college education.

Yup. All while ignoring any relation to their possible post-education income.

Wealth redistribution is their perceived way to achieve this everything free society, take from the one who has worked hard and through wisdom and cunning has gotten more than they think he should have, and give it to those who don´t have the attributes he has to earn more, in other words, steal it.

As per all Socialist and Communists.

They actually believe health care, higher education and a whole host of other things will be free.

Of course as their ideology is grounded in the fiction of Marx

Nothing is free, and the required taxes to fund this system make owning a home, or a car, prohibitive Even food in some countryś is heavily taxed.

When you aren't paying taxes such concerns do not exist.

America now has itś clamoring knot head socialists, while according to a recent poll, 73% of the population rejects socialism.

US political polls are horrible.

The Republic has withstood worse clowns than these, and will survive this as well.

A problem is the GOP has it's own clowns and only 1 backbone to share between GOP members.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Perhaps. However, most insurance companies require pre approval for significant tests or procedures.

The wise consumer, just like for any other product or service, should evaluate a physician based upon a number of factors, the most important being results.

I, and many people have changed doctors for a reasons that we feel are important, which in the US we have that freedom and right.

We have freedom of choice with our doctors.

 

[Cooky]

We have freedom of choice with our doctors.

Yeah, but still.

...I remember a little something not too long ago where doctors in the UK were going to pull the plug on a baby against the parents wishes.

Everything comes down to what the State says... so I Don't think there's any freedom.

 

[SomeRandom]

Yeah, but still.

...I remember a little something not too long ago where doctors in the UK were going to pull the plug on a baby against the parents wishes.

Everything comes down to what the State says... so I Don't think there's any freedom.

To be fair, I've heard similar things happening in Texas (of all places.)

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Yeah, but still.

...I remember a little something not too long ago where doctors in the UK were going to pull the plug on a baby against the parents wishes.

Everything comes down to what the State says... so I Don't think there's any freedom.

Phht. I don't live in the UK, so that has as much relevance to me as it does to you.

 

[Cooky]

Phht. I don't live in the UK, so that has as much relevance to me as it does to you.

I heard New Zealand and Australia are just the same though...

 

[Cooky]

To be fair, I've heard similar things happening in Texas (of all places.)

What in the dickens!?

 

[SomeRandom]

What in the dickens!?

Lol that was pretty much my reaction too!

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I heard New Zealand and Australia are just the same though...

Yeah, so I've lived in NZ and (obviously) Australia. We're not even the same as each other, let alone England.

 

[shmogie]

Yeah, but still.

...I remember a little something not too long ago where doctors in the UK were going to pull the plug on a baby against the parents wishes.

Everything comes down to what the State says... so I Don't think there's any freedom.

Yes, They wanted to bring the child to the US for experimental treatment. The President of the US had a plane prepared for that purpose.

The government of Britain refused to allow the parents to take their child from the UK hospital, where he died.

The more authority the government can exercise, the less liberty the people have.

The authoritarian empowered government only is concerned about it¨s own survival to the detriment of the population.

 

[Yerda]

The government of Britain refused to allow the parents to take their child from the UK hospital, where he died.

It was the doctors who made the decision and then the courts backed the doctors when the parents raised a legal challenge.The government doesn't have a role in medical decisions.

 

[Shad]

It was the doctors who made the decision and then the courts backed the doctors when the parents raised a legal challenge.The government doesn't have a role in medical decisions.

Nope. A judge refused to allow the child to go to Italy. Ergo the government decided that the parents could not explore other medical decisions.

 

[Yerda]

Nope. A judge refused to allow the child to go to Italy. Ergo the government decided that the parents could not explore other medical decisions.

Sorry, are we talking about Charlie Gard?

The judiciary isn't the government.

 

[Shad]

Sorry, are we talking about Charlie Gard?

I thought it was a reference to Alfie Evans

The judiciary isn't the government.

It is part of government... A branch of.... Without being part of government the judiciary has no power.... Do you even know anything about the subject you are babbling about?