Non-Americans with universal healthcare. Do you prefer your system or privatized like the U.S. Why?

[GoodbyeDave]

As at least one person has pointed out, we need to distinguish between financing health care and providing health care.
1. The UK and the Scandinavians have public insurance and care provided by a nationalised industry.
2. France has public insurance and private provision.
3. Germany and the USA have private insurance and care provision.
Note that the last category has one system notorious for the number of people who are failed, and one that is greatly admired! The secret would seem to be the details, not the overall system. Similarly, the NHS in Britain has lower standards than its counterparts in Scandinavia. The problem there seems to be that the NHS is lust too large to be manageable and doesn't get enough funding.

Personally, I'm not an admirer of the NHS. Normally I'd use a private hospital (3 times) but I was admitted once as an emergency to an NHS one. The contrast was stark! I just wish one of the private hospitals in London had an emergency department.

 

[Augustus]

Physicians are paid based on services. They are not paid from prescriptions or tests, unless they are done in their offices, which it rarely is.

Here a lot of GPs operate as clinics and do these things themselves, don't know about the US. Hospitals obviously do all of these things.

Drug companies also pay commissions.

They are rated by private consumer agencies who do in depth patient satisfaction surveys, and these ratings are available for anyone to find.

Further, hospitals evaluate the docs who have attending privilege´s at their hospitals. These are based upon peer review and patient feedback. Those whose performance is not acceptable have their privilege´s revoked.

Like I said, 'patient feedback' means keeping the patient happy, not necessarily doing what is in their best interests.

Our legal system allows anyone to sue a physician for malpractice.

Can do that anywhere, but the ridiculous compensation culture in America and excessive damages means you certainly pay a lot more than others for this right.

How do you get the point that going private costs less than the average American pays ?

Because the average American pays double what people pay (directly or indirectly) in other Western countries. You get robbed blind.

 

[Shad]

I lately found this out and was dumbstruck.

No dental, no optometry and no drug coverage. Medical costs are in the top 5 reasons for bankruptcy in Canada. There are also massive issues with closed beds due to staff issues, lack of services in smaller communities and the general triage system used for everything.

 

[shmogie]

Here a lot of GPs operate as clinics and do these things themselves, don't know about the US. Hospitals obviously do all of these things.

Drug companies also pay commissions.



Like I said, 'patient feedback' means keeping the patient happy, not necessarily doing what is in their best interests.



Can do that anywhere, but the ridiculous compensation culture in America and excessive damages means you certainly pay a lot more than others for this right.



Because the average American pays double what people pay (directly or indirectly) in other Western countries. You get robbed blind.

So, my insurance premiums are more than what people pay in taxes and other related healthcare costs ?

How does the cost of socialized medicine effect other services that government provides ?


Does law enforcement or transportation or defense have less money than they need because of the cost of medicine and its part of the revenue pie ?

I know for a fact that law enforcement in Britain has been struggling because of repeated tighter and tighter budgets, and the crime statistics show the effect of less and less police resources.

I know that there as well people are on waiting lists for needed surgeries, over a year in some cases.

I know a man that needed a hip replacement, desperately, and he was forced to exist in very serious pain for 11 months before he had his surgery.

In the US it could be done, if required, in two or three weeks.

 

[Shad]

You mean the government owns the clinics and hospitals and employs doctors and staff?

No. A public and private options. Most medical procedures can only be done legally within the public system or the citizen must go to another nation. In Canada that is. I want to have more private options without having to leave Canada or break stupid monopoly laws

 

[Shad]

How does the cost of socialized medicine effect other services that government provides ?

Socialized systems are part of the normal budget not a separate funding system. Like any budget funding for X comes at the cost of funding Y.

 

[Jumi]

I know a man that needed a hip replacement, desperately, and he was forced to exist in very serious pain for 11 months before he had his surgery.

In the US it could be done, if required, in two or three weeks.

Someone with enough money can have such a thing in less time, anywhere in the world. Someone who can't scrounge the money either gets no help and just has to live a painful life until dying or get some public healthcare if available. Public healthcare also tends to lower prices for private care. Don't know the UK system, but it doesn't have a good reputation comparing to say what we have in Nordic countries.

 

[shmogie]

No. A public and private options. Most medical procedures can only be done legally within the public system or the citizen must go to another nation. In Canada that is. I want to have more private options without having to leave Canada or break stupid monopoly laws

I live in Arizona. a place where Canadians show op in droves during the winter.

Many of them schedule medical tests and procedures for when they are here.

Since I am not familiar with the Canadian system, and what I know is only anecdotal from these folk I am only going to say I have heard some rather horrendous stories about their care in their own country.

 

[Shad]

I live in Arizona. a place where Canadians show op in droves during the winter.

You could say the same about Seattle and it's hospitals. Lots of Canadian visitors!

Many of them schedule medical tests and procedures for when they are here.

Tourists can file for tourist medical insurance with the NHS in Canada. They are gaming the system, nothing more. Now if someone wanted to use the America medical system without the tourist factor the NHS pays nothing.

Since I am not familiar with the Canadian system, and what I know is only anecdotal from these folk I am only going to say I have heard some rather horrendous stories about their care in their own country.

The system has it's good points and bad points due to the nature of triage, socialized funding and bureaucratic whims. If you are poor the system is great. If you have money the system is horrible. Fact is the NHS is not as good as advertised when American advocates pander.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I live in Arizona. a place where Canadians show op in droves during the winter.

Many of them schedule medical tests and procedures for when they are here.

Since I am not familiar with the Canadian system, and what I know is only anecdotal from these folk I am only going to say I have heard some rather horrendous stories about their care in their own country.

For life-critical stuff, there's no delay at all. Get diagnosed with cancer, for instance, and you get any required tests and exams right away.

There have been issues in the past with delays on issues that are more about chronic conditions or quality of life, however - at least in Ontario - there has heen a big push by the provincial government to get more MRI machines and to bring down wait times for a list of ~9 (IIRC) common treatments, including hip replacements. In general, they did a good job of bringing wait times down to reasonable levels.

These days, wait times are tracked and reported, and there's a big push to address the issue when wait times exceed targets:

https://www.ontario.ca/page/wait-times-ontario

 

[shmogie]

Someone with enough money can have such a thing in less time, anywhere in the world. Someone who can't scrounge the money either gets no help and just has to live a painful life until dying or get some public healthcare if available. Public healthcare also tends to lower prices for private care. Don't know the UK system, but it doesn't have a good reputation comparing to say what we have in Nordic countries.

But I am not talking about the Americans with money, I am talking about the average American with health insurance, be it through an employer, Medicare, or Medicaid.

 

[Shad]

For life-critical stuff, there's no delay at all. Get diagnosed with cancer, for instance, and you get any required tests and exams right away.

There is a delay, there is always a delay even if a small one. It took 3 weeks from start to procedure for my cancer. GP appointment was fast tracked. Blood work took 2 days (weekday). Referral appoint for scans over 1 week and completion of said scans (hit weekends). Procedure booked for week 3. Discharged in 2 hours and blacked out for weeks.


It gets worse if you are outside the major cities. Long trips driving as fat chances of getting a flight.

 

[shmogie]

You could say the same about Seattle and it's hospitals. Lots of Canadian visitors!



Tourists can file for tourist medical insurance with the NHS in Canada. They are gaming the system, nothing more. Now if someone wanted to use the America medical system without the tourist factor the NHS pays nothing.



The system has it's good points and bad points due to the nature of triage, socialized funding and bureaucratic whims. If you are poor the system is great. If you have money the system is horrible. Fact is the NHS is not as good as advertised when American advocates pander.

Yep, we have this new ignorant, young faction in the democrat party that has grown up with being supplied with whatever they need.

You ask them to work full time at night and go college full time like I and tens of thousands of my generation did, and they are horrified.

They run up huge student loan debt, which no one forced them to take, then they want the government to bail them out and provide ¨ free¨ college education.

Wealth redistribution is their perceived way to achieve this everything free society, take from the one who has worked hard and through wisdom and cunning has gotten more than they think he should have, and give it to those who don´t have the attributes he has to earn more, in other words, steal it.

They actually believe health care, higher education and a whole host of other things will be free.

Nothing is free, and the required taxes to fund this system make owning a home, or a car, prohibitive Even food in some countryś is heavily taxed.

America now has itś clamoring knot head socialists, while according to a recent poll, 73% of the population rejects socialism.

The Republic has withstood worse clowns than these, and will survive this as well.

 

[Jumi]

But I am not talking about the Americans with money, I am talking about the average American with health insurance, be it through an employer, Medicare, or Medicaid.

So why are tens of thousands of people in the US dying every year because they can't access healthcare? Why are so many people who can't afford treatment using drugs legal and illegal to try to cope with pain? It sounds like a non-developed country to people in Europe, even to non-Nordics.

New study finds 45,000 deaths annually linked to lack of health coverage
Patient dumping in America: Hospitals discharging sick homeless back onto the street

I wouldn't want to live in a country where people didn't care about their neighbors well-being. Nothing to do with the German guy with the beard. Not even our right wing or nationalist want the US system even if they want to copy other things from there.

 

[Jumi]

Yep, we have this new ignorant, young faction in the democrat party that has grown up with being supplied with whatever they need.

You ask them to work full time at night and go college full time like I and tens of thousands of my generation did, and they are horrified.

I'd bet the University tuitions have gone up in the US since your generation so you'd need to work twice as hard if you wanted to go debt free. Because we get American students all the time who are not willing to get both huge debts and work at the same time. In much of Europe you can work and get no debt, or you can get debt and study full-time.

It's quite funny that politically minded right wing folk in my country want a more debt based system like the US. You know, fighting "socialism" with it, it's great to hear from the US that what they're fighting for is actually "socialism"

They run up huge student loan debt, which no one forced them to take, then they want the government to bail them out and provide ¨ free¨ college education.

Nothing free about running a huge debt for overpriced education. I guess that's why so many non-Americans come here to study. And as for quality, lots of experts and professors the US gets from countries where the students can study full time.

Yeah, we have lots of American and Chinese students around.

 

[shmogie]

I'd bet the University tuitions have gone up in the US since your generation so you'd need to work twice as hard if you wanted to go debt free. Because we get American students all the time who are not willing to get both huge debts and work at the same time. In much of Europe you can work and get no debt, or you can get debt and study full-time.

It's quite funny that politically minded right wing folk in my country want a more debt based system like the US. You know, fighting "socialism" with it, it's great to hear from the US that what they're fighting for is actually "socialism"


Nothing free about running a huge debt for overpriced education. I guess that's why so many non-Americans come here to study. And as for quality, lots of experts and professors the US gets from countries where the students can study full time.

Yeah, we have lots of American and Chinese students around.

Tuition has gone up, but so has pay for work.

If someone cannot afford the private university they want to go to, then they shouldn´t go into debt to do so.

Community colleges for the first two years of a four year degree are virtually free.

The final two years can be done at a State university, some of which are among the finest schools in the world. Tuition at these schools is less than a private university.

Please tell me, what is the percentage of taxes you pay on a new car, or gasoline or food so that the entire population pays for tuition.

 

[shmogie]

So why are tens of thousands of people in the US dying every year because they can't access healthcare? Why are so many people who can't afford treatment using drugs legal and illegal to try to cope with pain? It sounds like a non-developed country to people in Europe, even to non-Nordics.

New study finds 45,000 deaths annually linked to lack of health coverage
Patient dumping in America: Hospitals discharging sick homeless back onto the street

I wouldn't want to live in a country where people didn't care about their neighbors well-being. Nothing to do with the German guy with the beard. Not even our right wing or nationalist want the US system even if they want to copy other things from there.

I wouldn´t want to live in a country where the government steals my money to spend to give it to others who wouldn´t work for their own.

You live in a European nation, thus tiny in comparison to the US.

With a population of 320 million, 45,000 is a statistically insignificant number.

Nevertheless, one is too many.

Who are these people ? In America one is free to make choices and the government is refrained from compelling people against their will, though we are abandoning liberty for the nanny state.

A percentage of these people are those who for whatever reason chose not to seek medical insurance.

Another high percentage are illegal aliens. People who broke the law to enter the country and are afraid of coming out of the shadows and getting medical coverage for fear of being deported.


These aliens are owed nothing from the American people. Nevertheless, most wind up on some form of government subsidy program, including medical care.

In the US anyone who shows up at a hospital must be treated regardless of insurance or none.

Everyone dies.

In this group of 45,000 are those who medical coverage would have made no difference in the outcome. Those or die of age related condition, or terminal illness or accident.

No one who needs medical treatment need go without in the US for any reason.

You include an article on the homeless. I don know if you are familiar with these folk. In my career, I came into contact with them quite regularly.

For many, this is a lifestyle choice. Many times they are provided housing, and they leave to go back on the streets.

Some have mental issues, but after a compelled 72 hour mental evaluation, they are found not to be ill enough to deny them their liberty.

Many are drug addicts or alcoholics, they walk away from rehab programs. The street is best suited to them to pursue their addictions.

Some are people who fall through the cracks in the system, and that needs correction.

We know that in Europe their is significant propaganda about America that simply isn´t true.

Our Constitutional liberties are misunderstood, because in an environment where individual freedom is sacrificed to the state, you simply cannot understand that freedom means being free, and you are free to make choices that others feel are detrimental to you.

 

[Jumi]

Tuition has gone up, but so has pay for work.

I've heard about this from American students actually and that's why they come to Europe to study .... tuition has gone up faster and entry level jobs, not so much. Try picking apples or flipping burgers for ~56,000$ a year(which I'm told is pretty average for university students needs in the US), not including medical emergencies and clothes... and try to study something seriously at the same time. Well from an outsiders point of view sounds difficult. Here kids often work the summer or weekends if they need spending money.

Community colleges for the first two years of a four year degree are virtually free.

Is that something you are against? Socialism? You can do such things for free(if you're a citizen) here for the whole, companies like tech giants fund the universities along with the government. Of course foreigners have to pay tuition... or those who don't bypass entry exams can pay per course. Of course the cost is much lower comparing to the US.

The final two years can be done at a State university, some of which are among the finest schools in the world. Tuition at these schools is less than a private university.

So you're for state universities where education is free? I don't think they're free in the US though, like they are here. Government even pays you to study (as long as you graduate on time), because it's advantage having skilled taxpayers.

Please tell me, what is the percentage of taxes you pay on a new car, or gasoline or food so that the entire population pays for tuition.

We pay a lot of taxes, which pays for a lot of things. When life is comfortable and happy as it is for most people where I live, I wouldn't trade the advantages away for lower taxes. Lots of people spend the long holidays in foreign countries so it's not like we'd go broke from the taxes. How often can you afford to travel to foreign countries for two weeks on an average paycheck in your country?

I understand that you like it where you are and are not jealous of our things, but neither are we jealous of things in the States, especially not the healthcare or education system. The low taxes are nice, but not an incentive enough.

 

[Jumi]

I wouldn´t want to live in a country where the government steals my money to spend to give it to others who wouldn´t work for their own.

You live in a European nation, thus tiny in comparison to the US.

Yes, we can talk comparative statistics.

There's a little over 500 million population in the EU. If EU had the same amounts of deaths due to lack of access to healthcare a year, we'd be talking crisis.

With a population of 320 million, 45,000 is a statistically insignificant number.

I wouldn't call it insignificant. It would be a disaster if we had comparative numbers...

Who are these people ? In America one is free to make choices and the government is refrained from compelling people against their will, though we are abandoning liberty for the nanny state.

What kind of choices can you make that we can't make in my country? Curious... all I can think of is we can't smoke cannabis here or use snus. So you're a bit more "progressive" on that.

A percentage of these people are those who for whatever reason chose not to seek medical insurance.

Most likely can't afford it.

Another high percentage are illegal aliens. People who broke the law to enter the country and are afraid of coming out of the shadows and getting medical coverage for fear of being deported.

The study doesn't seem to count the illegal aliens, it's talking about Americans.

In the US anyone who shows up at a hospital must be treated regardless of insurance or none.

Except according to the FOX news...

Everyone dies.

We just die older on average than US citizens.

You include an article on the homeless. I don know if you are familiar with these folk. In my career, I came into contact with them quite regularly.

We never meet homeless in my country. We think of them as something that poor countries have.

For many, this is a lifestyle choice. Many times they are provided housing, and they leave to go back on the streets.

Some have mental issues, but after a compelled 72 hour mental evaluation, they are found not to be ill enough to deny them their liberty.

Many are drug addicts or alcoholics, they walk away from rehab programs. The street is best suited to them to pursue their addictions.

Aren't a lot of them in jail though, since your country has more inmates per population than any other western country?

Some are people who fall through the cracks in the system, and that needs correction.

Yeah I watched one about US veterans living out of cars and families living out of huts when they got fired. Europe has that kind of problems too, just not my country.

We know that in Europe their is significant propaganda about America that simply isn´t true.

Like what propaganda? Europe isn't a single entity though, reporting in my country is usually more positive about the US than your own news outlets that anyone can watch.

I have lots of relatives in the US who migrated there before the World Wars... mostly on East Coast now. If anything, you hear things are worse than on our news. Both Trump supporters and anti-Trump folks seem to agree on that.

In the US there are lies about Europe being socialist... look, there's even a post made about "socialist" Finland or Sweden every now and then. That's always a laugh...

Our Constitutional liberties are misunderstood, because in an environment where individual freedom is sacrificed to the state, you simply cannot understand that freedom means being free, and you are free to make choices that others feel are detrimental to you.

Is that any different elsewhere, though? Not like the government in my country tells me to do something unless I become unemployed. I can do pretty much anything I like here, except drugs or things illegal in most countries even the US.

 

[shmogie]

I've heard about this from American students actually and that's why they come to Europe to study .... tuition has gone up faster and entry level jobs, not so much. Try picking apples or flipping burgers for ~56,000$ a year(which I'm told is pretty average for university students needs in the US), not including medical emergencies and clothes... and try to study something seriously at the same time. Well from an outsiders point of view sounds difficult. Here kids often work the summer or weekends if they need spending money.


Is that something you are against? Socialism? You can do such things for free(if you're a citizen) here for the whole, companies like tech giants fund the universities along with the government. Of course foreigners have to pay tuition... or those who don't bypass entry exams can pay per course. Of course the cost is much lower comparing to the US.


So you're for state universities where education is free? I don't think they're free in the US though, like they are here. Government even pays you to study (as long as you graduate on time), because it's advantage having skilled taxpayers.


We pay a lot of taxes, which pays for a lot of things. When life is comfortable and happy as it is for most people where I live, I wouldn't trade the advantages away for lower taxes. Lots of people spend the long holidays in foreign countries so it's not like we'd go broke from the taxes. How often can you afford to travel to foreign countries for two weeks on an average paycheck in your country?

I understand that you like it where you are and are not jealous of our things, but neither are we jealous of things in the States, especially not the healthcare or education system. The low taxes are nice, but not an incentive enough.

Yes, I am against socialism, where initiative and hard work are rewarded with higher taxes ( theft ) and the system deincentivises those with the inclination to reap and not sow.

The per annum amount you quoted is for a private university, not a public one.

America´s economy is roaring. The stock market is in it´s tenth year of a bull run.

Unemployment is at 3.5 %. Wages are going up.

Young Americans believe they must have a college education. They have been taught this by my generation, for whom it was true.

There are many many jobs that go unfilled that require technical training or apprenticeships, well paying jobs that go begging.

On the other hand, graduates with liberal arts degrees, and a plethora of other types of degrees are not in demand for employment, there are too many of them.

A kid who doesn´t want to program computers or be a carpenter, but wants to be an archaeologist from the best private college in the field, borrows hand over fist for 5 or 6 years, then can´t find a job.

My daughters are both university educated. They both worked as students, just like me, but they each took a student loan. Each repayed their loans within four years.

One has a degree in photography, in journalism, and a graduate degree in anthropology.

You probably have seen some of her photographs from all over the world. She went to public schools.

The other went to a private college and got her degree in fashion design, and is well known in Las Vegas where she designs and her shop builds costumes for the various shows.

They are examples of the American dream, I had the opportunity to pursue it, they were taught a strong work ethic and responsibility and accountability and were able to pursue it themselves.