No alcohol is safe - Canadian Centre on Substance Use and Addiction

[AdamjEdgar]

I am a Seventh Day Adventist.
Over the years our church has spent a great deal of time preaching that the Water into Wine miracle in the bible by Jesus at the Wedding was not alcoholic.

There is a lot of debate about this however i have followed the principle that even a small amount of alcohol is unsafe for social use.

Interestingly enough, there is now research coming out of Canada that i think supports the SDA position on alcohol consumption.

I quote "Drinking alcohol, even a small amount, is damaging to everyone." CCSA

"In 2017, alcohol caused 18,000 deaths in Canada. That same year, the costs associated with alcohol use in Canada were $16.6 billion, with $5.4 billion of that sum spent on health care."

The CCSA report was two years in the making and involved a panel of about two dozen experts examining nearly 6,000 peer-reviewed studies.

Three to six drinks a week increases the risk of developing certain cancers, like colorectal and breast cancer, while more than seven drinks a week also increases your risk of heart disease and stroke.

the most recent available data that shows the use of alcohol causes nearly 7,000 cancer deaths each year in Canada, with most cases being breast or colon cancer, followed by cancers of the rectum, mouth and throat, liver, oesophagus and larynx.

Is there a safe limit of alcohol you can drink? New guidelines from Canada say there's not
​

This is interesting because generally its the social argument that is attacked in religious debates about alcohol, however, clearly the physical/medical chances of severe and terminal illness are being ignored.

The SDA church has for years been strong advocates for the abstinence of alcohol and i think this research (albeit relatively new) is pointing us in the direction that perhaps the SDA view on this is right. What is surprising is that Ellen White (a founder of the SDA Church), made the following comments about alcohol in 1884

I have received letters from different individuals, inquiring if I think it in accordance with our faith to raise hops, knowing that they are principally used in the manufacture of intoxicating drinks, or to engage in the manufacture of wine or cider for the market. RH March 25, 1884, Art. A, par. 1

I cannot see how, in the light of the law of God, Christians can conscientiously engage in these pursuits. All these articles may be put to a good use, and prove a blessing; and they may be perverted to a wrong use, and prove a temptation and a curse.

Many, as they read this, will laugh at the warning of danger. They will say, “Surely the little wine or cider that I use cannot hurt me.” Satan has marked such as his prey; he leads them on step by step The Review and Herald​

 

[Heyo]

"Doctor, I want to live a hundred years. What do I have to do?"
"Don't smoke, don't drink and no sex."
"And then I'll live a hundred years?"
"No, but it will feel like it."

 

[Subduction Zone]

I am a Seventh Day Adventist.
Over the years our church has spent a great deal of time preaching that the Water into Wine miracle in the bible by Jesus at the Wedding was not alcoholic.

There is a lot of debate about this however i have followed the principle that even a small amount of alcohol is unsafe for social use.

Interestingly enough, there is now research coming out of Canada that i think supports the SDA position on alcohol consumption.

I quote "Drinking alcohol, even a small amount, is damaging to everyone." CCSA

"In 2017, alcohol caused 18,000 deaths in Canada. That same year, the costs associated with alcohol use in Canada were $16.6 billion, with $5.4 billion of that sum spent on health care."

The CCSA report was two years in the making and involved a panel of about two dozen experts examining nearly 6,000 peer-reviewed studies.

Three to six drinks a week increases the risk of developing certain cancers, like colorectal and breast cancer, while more than seven drinks a week also increases your risk of heart disease and stroke.

the most recent available data that shows the use of alcohol causes nearly 7,000 cancer deaths each year in Canada, with most cases being breast or colon cancer, followed by cancers of the rectum, mouth and throat, liver, oesophagus and larynx.

Is there a safe limit of alcohol you can drink? New guidelines from Canada say there's not
​

This is interesting because generally its the social argument that is attacked in religious debates about alcohol, however, clearly the physical/medical chances of severe and terminal illness are being ignored.

The SDA church has for years been strong advocates for the abstinence of alcohol and i think this research (albeit relatively new) is pointing us in the direction that perhaps the SDA view on this is right. What is surprising is that Ellen White (a founder of the SDA Church), made the following comments about alcohol in 1884

I have received letters from different individuals, inquiring if I think it in accordance with our faith to raise hops, knowing that they are principally used in the manufacture of intoxicating drinks, or to engage in the manufacture of wine or cider for the market. RH March 25, 1884, Art. A, par. 1

I cannot see how, in the light of the law of God, Christians can conscientiously engage in these pursuits. All these articles may be put to a good use, and prove a blessing; and they may be perverted to a wrong use, and prove a temptation and a curse.

Many, as they read this, will laugh at the warning of danger. They will say, “Surely the little wine or cider that I use cannot hurt me.” Satan has marked such as his prey; he leads them on step by step The Review and Herald​

The problem with the water to wine myth for teetotalers is that it is clear from the context that the wine was alcoholic. It was not grape juice as the Adventists want to believe.

 

[exchemist]

I am a Seventh Day Adventist.
Over the years our church has spent a great deal of time preaching that the Water into Wine miracle in the bible by Jesus at the Wedding was not alcoholic.

There is a lot of debate about this however i have followed the principle that even a small amount of alcohol is unsafe for social use.

Interestingly enough, there is now research coming out of Canada that i think supports the SDA position on alcohol consumption.

I quote "Drinking alcohol, even a small amount, is damaging to everyone." CCSA

"In 2017, alcohol caused 18,000 deaths in Canada. That same year, the costs associated with alcohol use in Canada were $16.6 billion, with $5.4 billion of that sum spent on health care."

The CCSA report was two years in the making and involved a panel of about two dozen experts examining nearly 6,000 peer-reviewed studies.

Three to six drinks a week increases the risk of developing certain cancers, like colorectal and breast cancer, while more than seven drinks a week also increases your risk of heart disease and stroke.

the most recent available data that shows the use of alcohol causes nearly 7,000 cancer deaths each year in Canada, with most cases being breast or colon cancer, followed by cancers of the rectum, mouth and throat, liver, oesophagus and larynx.

Is there a safe limit of alcohol you can drink? New guidelines from Canada say there's not
​

This is interesting because generally its the social argument that is attacked in religious debates about alcohol, however, clearly the physical/medical chances of severe and terminal illness are being ignored.

The SDA church has for years been strong advocates for the abstinence of alcohol and i think this research (albeit relatively new) is pointing us in the direction that perhaps the SDA view on this is right. What is surprising is that Ellen White (a founder of the SDA Church), made the following comments about alcohol in 1884

I have received letters from different individuals, inquiring if I think it in accordance with our faith to raise hops, knowing that they are principally used in the manufacture of intoxicating drinks, or to engage in the manufacture of wine or cider for the market. RH March 25, 1884, Art. A, par. 1

I cannot see how, in the light of the law of God, Christians can conscientiously engage in these pursuits. All these articles may be put to a good use, and prove a blessing; and they may be perverted to a wrong use, and prove a temptation and a curse.

Many, as they read this, will laugh at the warning of danger. They will say, “Surely the little wine or cider that I use cannot hurt me.” Satan has marked such as his prey; he leads them on step by step The Review and Herald​

There is risk in almost every activity. Surveys I have read suggest that the healthiest people in Europe tend to be occasional drinkers. Those that abstain totally are less healthy. But this may be because that segment of the population includes those that are are off alcohol due to being unwell, or because it includes cranks with diets or lifestyles that are unhealthy in other ways. But that's in Europe, where normal social activity tends in involve a certain amount of alcohol. The results might be different in a different society.

If you read the linked article, the real message seems to be that the exponential rise in risk sets in significantly above about 6-7 "drinks" per week. However, infuriatingly, the writers make no effort to tell readers what is meant by a "drink". This renders the article almost useless from a practical point of view.

Australia and Ireland are mentioned as countries in which a standard "drink" is defined in terms of units of alcohol, where one unit is a drink containing 10g of alcohol. The UK uses the same system. Once you know that, you can apply any guidelines you encounter. Without it, you have no idea what anyone is talking about. In round figures a pint of 4% beer is 2 units and a bottle of 13.5% wine, which is fairly typical, is 10 units. A single UK 25ml measure of 40% spirits is one unit.

So 6-7 units per week (if that is what they mean by "drink", which it may not be) would be 3 pints of beer or 2/3 bbl wine or 3 double whiskies, or something of that order. Current UK guidance is set at a maximum of 14 units/week, though it is better to stay well within this: https://assets.publishing.service.g...tachment_data/file/545937/UK_CMOs__report.pdf

While any individual is free to manage the choice of risks they run in daily life, it is worth bearing in mind that in countries in which moderate alcohol consumption has been in the culture for centuries, such as France, Spain or Italy, life expectancy is long:
List of countries by life expectancy - Wikipedia . This suggests that whatever degree of life-shortening alcohol is responsible for in these populations, the effect is minor.

There are many reasons not to be a Seventh Day Adventist. I will be pleased to add abstention from alcohol to the list.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

There is risk in almost every activity. Surveys I have read suggest that the healthiest people in Europe tend to be occasional drinkers. Those that abstain totally are less healthy. But this may be because that segment of the population includes those that are are off alcohol due to being unwell, or because it includes cranks with diets or lifestyles that are unhealthy in other ways. But that's in Europe, where normal social activity tends in involve a certain amount of alcohol. The results might be different in a different society.

If you read the linked article, the real message seems to be that the exponential rise in risk sets in significantly above about 6-7 "drinks" per week. However, infuriatingly, the writers make no effort to tell readers what is meant by a "drink". This renders the article almost useless from a practical point of view.

Australia and Ireland are mentioned as countries in which a standard "drink" is defined in terms of units of alcohol, where one unit is a drink containing 10g of alcohol. The UK uses the same system. Once you know that, you can apply any guidelines you encounter. Without it, you have no idea what anyone is talking about. In round figures a pint of 4% beer is 2 units and a bottle of 13.5% wine, which is fairly typical, is 10 units. A single UK 25ml measure of 40% spirits is one unit.

So 6-7 units per week would be 3 pints of beer or 2/3 bbl wine or 3 double whiskies, or something of that order.

While any individual is free to manage the choice of risks they run in daily life, it is worth bearing in mind that in countries in which moderate alcohol consumption has been in the culture for centuries, such as France, Spain or Italy, life expectancy is long:
List of countries by life expectancy - Wikipedia . This suggests that whatever degree of life-shortening alcohol is responsible for in these populations, the effect is minor.

There are many reasons not to be a Seventh Day Adventist. I will be pleased to add abstention from alcohol to the list.

The "blue zones," places where people live the longest, most of them drink alcohol occasionally and in moderation (eating very little meat is another common dietary trait).
There's more to it, such as they also tend to be close, tight knit communities, but they do indeed drink abit.

 

[exchemist]

The "blue zones," places where people live the longest, most of them drink alcohol occasionally and in moderation (eating very little meat is another common dietary trait).
There's more to it, such as they also tend to be close, tight knit communities, but they do indeed drink abit.

Yes. Anglo-Saxon culture tends to have a less healthy relationship with alcohol than Mediterranean culture. It is noteworthy that in the latter, drinking takes place in the context of a meal.

 

[exchemist]

I am a Seventh Day Adventist.
Over the years our church has spent a great deal of time preaching that the Water into Wine miracle in the bible by Jesus at the Wedding was not alcoholic.

There is a lot of debate about this however i have followed the principle that even a small amount of alcohol is unsafe for social use.

Interestingly enough, there is now research coming out of Canada that i think supports the SDA position on alcohol consumption.

I quote "Drinking alcohol, even a small amount, is damaging to everyone." CCSA

"In 2017, alcohol caused 18,000 deaths in Canada. That same year, the costs associated with alcohol use in Canada were $16.6 billion, with $5.4 billion of that sum spent on health care."

The CCSA report was two years in the making and involved a panel of about two dozen experts examining nearly 6,000 peer-reviewed studies.

Three to six drinks a week increases the risk of developing certain cancers, like colorectal and breast cancer, while more than seven drinks a week also increases your risk of heart disease and stroke.

the most recent available data that shows the use of alcohol causes nearly 7,000 cancer deaths each year in Canada, with most cases being breast or colon cancer, followed by cancers of the rectum, mouth and throat, liver, oesophagus and larynx.

Is there a safe limit of alcohol you can drink? New guidelines from Canada say there's not
​

This is interesting because generally its the social argument that is attacked in religious debates about alcohol, however, clearly the physical/medical chances of severe and terminal illness are being ignored.

The SDA church has for years been strong advocates for the abstinence of alcohol and i think this research (albeit relatively new) is pointing us in the direction that perhaps the SDA view on this is right. What is surprising is that Ellen White (a founder of the SDA Church), made the following comments about alcohol in 1884

I have received letters from different individuals, inquiring if I think it in accordance with our faith to raise hops, knowing that they are principally used in the manufacture of intoxicating drinks, or to engage in the manufacture of wine or cider for the market. RH March 25, 1884, Art. A, par. 1

I cannot see how, in the light of the law of God, Christians can conscientiously engage in these pursuits. All these articles may be put to a good use, and prove a blessing; and they may be perverted to a wrong use, and prove a temptation and a curse.

Many, as they read this, will laugh at the warning of danger. They will say, “Surely the little wine or cider that I use cannot hurt me.” Satan has marked such as his prey; he leads them on step by step The Review and Herald​

Just to add to my earlier reply, the notion that the wine at the Marriage at Cana was not alcoholic is ridiculous. The steward actually comments that it is better wine than that served at the beginning, even though it is well-known that the best should be served at the start and the less good served when everyone has had plenty to drink. He would hardly be likely to compliment the quality of the wine if it was (miraculously) alcohol-free, as it would make it taste quite unlike wine.

 

[Lyndon]

What do they call freshly made wine?? Grape juice, duh!!

 

[Subduction Zone]

Just to add to my earlier reply, the notion that the wine at the Marriage at Cana was not alcoholic is ridiculous. The steward actually comments that it is better wine than that served at the beginning, even though it is well-known that the best should be served at the start and the less good served when everyone has had plenty to drink. He would hardly be likely to compliment the quality of the wine if it was (miraculously) alcohol-free, as it would make it taste quite unlike wine.

Plus, there is a good reason one serves the good stuff first. When sober one's tastebuds are at their most accurate. When someone is half sloshed any alcohol will do. So serving cheaper wine first makes no sense. The guests would remember the cheap wine, but not the expensive. It is a waste of money to serve the cheap stuff first. The steward was sober and could taste the difference.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What do they call freshly made wine?? Grape juice, duh!!

No. Trust me. Freshly made wine is fermented. You don't serve grape juice when people are there for wine.

 

[Brickjectivity]

The main problem with alcohol is: a subset of people react to it as they would an opiate. These are the ones most easily addicted to it, while the rest of us find it relatively easy to stay away. Its effects are not all pleasant, so its easy to balance our like and dislike. The ones who get addicted learn to endure the sick feelings, the pains, the joint aches, the lingering fuzzy thinking, poor judgment, sugar rushes and mood swings. There are also some people who lose control. "Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler" is true, however "Give wine to those who are perishing" is true, too. If you're in pain then a pain killer is perhaps better.

A wedding is a time for celebrating and for positive interactions. With this alcohol can be of service. It makes people feel at ease and converse without so much stress. Its useful for diplomacy. It improves first impressions, freshens breath, opens eyes. Two families and family businesses are joined, and sometimes this is very intense. There can be worry and anxiety about what will happen. Weddings are a tool for uniting people, not only the married couple but their families. That comes first, and so they pour the alcohol.

 

[exchemist]

Plus, there is a good reason one serves the good stuff first. When sober one's tastebuds are at their most accurate. When someone is half sloshed any alcohol will do. So serving cheaper wine first makes no sense. The guests would remember the cheap wine, but not the expensive. It is a waste of money to serve the cheap stuff first. The steward was sober and could taste the difference.

That's what the gospel account says, though the expression is "well-wined" or "have drunk their fill" rather than "sloshed" - what the French call bien arrosé, literally "well watered", i.e. like a plant in the garden.

 

[PureX]

I am a recovered alcoholic. (Thirty years sober this coming Monday.) I know the horror that alcohol can become for some people. Believe me.

But that's only for some people. Not everyone. Lots of people can use alcohol to positive effect and gain a lot of enjoyment and commerodery from it. And lots of people do.

I do not accept that God would wish to deny all those people that gift. I know I certainly wouldn't. Just because I can't safely drink alcohol doesn't mean other people can't or shouldn't.

 

[Lyndon]

No. Trust me. Freshly made wine is fermented. You don't serve grape juice when people are there for wine.

sorry, you're dead wrong, all wine starts out as unfermented grape juice, you would think you would know that!!

 

[PureX]

sorry, you're dead wrong, all wine starts out as unfermented grape juice, you would think you would know that!!

If it's called wine, it's been fermented. Otherwise it's grape juice.

 

[exchemist]

sorry, you're dead wrong, all wine starts out as unfermented grape juice, you would think you would know that!!

You two are at cross purposes. Of course @Subduction Zone knows wine is made from fruit juice (usually from grapes, though my grandfather, a Yorkshireman, made some not very good, and heavily chaptalised, wine from rhubarb). The point is that until it is fermented, it is not wine - it's just grape juice.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

Hehehe...I knew this one would stir up the hornets nest of alcohol lovers.

What is of interest in reading the responses so far is that few if any actually looked closely at the reason why the study has said "there is no safe limit".

The study is stating quite clearly no amount of alcohol is safe...even in small amounts.

It states that 1or 2 drinks is low risk...but that is true to the point...no alcohol is safe. Even small amounts contribute to cancer and heart disease and stroke.
Thus is not a social argument...it's medical one in favour of avoiding terminal illness from alcohol consumption exactly where the cancers are...in the very places we injest, process, and eject the alcohol!

I disagree with the claims using biblical texts. My understanding is that in the original language, it is not fermented wine. Perhaps an individual with training in said language can provide evidence of what the word is in Hebrew and/or Aramaic and what it refers to exactly?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Hehehe...I knew this one would stir up the hornets nest of alcohol lovers.

What is of interest in reading the responses so far is that few if any actually looked closely at the reason why the study has said "there is no safe limit".

The study is stating quite clearly no amount of alcohol is safe...even in small amounts.

It states that 1or 2 drinks is low risk...but that is true to the point...no alcohol is safe. Even small amounts contribute to cancer and heart disease and stroke.
Thus is not a social argument...it's medical one in favour of avoiding terminal illness from alcohol consumption.nkte exactly where the cancers are...in the very places we invest, process, and eject the alcohol!

It is one study, other studies show other results.

 

[Subduction Zone]

sorry, you're dead wrong, all wine starts out as unfermented grape juice, you would think you would know that!!

But it is not wine at that time. Yes, what becomes wine starts out as grape juice. But we were discussing the myth in the Bible. From context they were drinking wine.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That's what the gospel account says, though the expression is "well-wined" or "have drunk their fill" rather than "sloshed" - what the French call bien arrosé, literally "well watered", i.e. like a plant in the garden.

We could just say " happy". Not drunk, but probably not legal to drive in Europe.