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Featured Nicene Creed

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by lostwanderingsoul, Aug 11, 2019.

  1. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Mm not really. Constantine asked for a sign, and one came from Jesus. What would you expect him to do?
     
  2. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    Our perspectives have changed, somewhat, over the last 1500 yrears. The heresies and enemies of Christianity haven't really changed, though.

    Bear in mind, this early church just went public.. it was in hiding, persecuted and killed, for their faith, prior to Constantine 'legalizing' Christianity. These early church fathers did not have the benefits of 2 millennia of history, scholarship, archaeology, nor philosophical & theological debates within and without the Christian community.

    These were vilified outcasts, not educated philosophers and theologians, but they provided the foundation for creeds, statements of faith, and clarified summaries for future generations. We owe them a debt of gratitude and admiration, for their courage, dedication, and faithfulness to the Gospel message.

    It is better, imo, to understand history, and the context of those who preceded us, than to find fault with them, for not meeting our current standards of political correctness.
     
  3. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    This might have been an interesting discussion on the Creed, but turned into Catholic bashing over the Trinity.
     
  4. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    I knew what the 'differences' were in my "beliefs" regarding the nature of the sacrifice, etc, a long time ago. Without studying, so forth.

    So, in that context, what I wrote was actually polite.
     
  5. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    Yet the Gospels tell of Jesus who was worshiped at the Temple, as an infant was presented at the Temple in accordance with his religion. He was faithful to His religious obligations. There was an established priesthood. And there was an Altar. And the first Christians, who were Jews, continued to attend Temple.
    And Paul, whom you love to quote, presents the gathering for the Eucharist.
    Corinthians 10:16
    Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?

    It is through the Catholic Church that you have the very Scriptures you love to quote.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  6. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    A sign from Jesus? Or a sign he THOUGHT was from Jesus? How many murderers say they did it because God "told them to"?
     
  7. MikeDwight

    MikeDwight Well-Known Member

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    Interesting that Constantine Called the Council of Nicea… Its also interesting he was an Eastern General that became the overall Roman Emperor? Many people will notice the Two-Headed Eagle and this is an obscure symbolism, the Ancient Roman Eagle, and pointing out how the Romans for only maybe a Decade had Split the Roman Empire for Administrative Purposes between Western Roman Empire and Eastern Roman Empire before the Visigoths and German Tribes began to dismantle the Western Roman Empire, and luckily the Catholic Church alone preserved Latin and also their education.

    Now I said All that to point out , I must admit educational Bias about this, it is so Different to say Constantine finally Allowed Christianity when the Bible shows Successful Conversions in Acts and Revelation of the Anatolian Greek region in 90 AD. The same Missionary Paul who did this was killed in Rome for his beliefs as a Martyr, not that it is good at all that the Romans made Christ's follower a Martyr.

    [​IMG]

    Why'd I just paste this, why's this here. Well its the Mostly Homeland of the Greeks, now ignore Italy, also the Bulgarians split off their Orthodox Church wanting to look like the Catholics, Croatia actually Did become Catholic, forget Serbia, notice Armenia that's already separate, that's fine. Now why I highlight this map of the Themes of the Byzantine Empire which is a Historical Kingdom only good for Christian Study, look how Rich our Biblical History Study is now! There is Constantinople, right at the divide of the seas, the Seat of the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople of all Orthodox Christianity today. We al found Constantinople in the middle? To the East Just a little bit is Niceae, or the Nicene Creed, the Emperor must have been lazy, or Constantine doesn't take long walks. We see Makedonia West of Constantinople, which actually is home to Alexander the Great, its really the military home of the Greeks anyway. Further East of Constantinople, and Niceae, Is Chalcedon even on this one? DANG IT! Chalcedon is a big town in the middle of Anatolia, Chalcedonian Creed and Christianity defined Christianity without the Pope or beside him and the Pentarchy until 500 AD, so you can see how so many people and Orthodox people get their ideas and interests, and Christianity, Also the 7 Churches of Revelation were near Thrakesion.
     
  8. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    sure bro pcarl
    Jesus should be worshiped
    I worship Jesus in my every prayer.

    What is different is I do not recognize him as God but as a man in his truest state.
    I recognize Jesus Christ not as God but as the man, the Son of God because that is what the Bible says:


    IF JESUS IS GOD THEN THERE WILL BE TWO GODS

    The father alone is the true God. This is the teaching explicitly written in the Bible. The Lord Jesus Christ Himself, the apostles, and even the prophets of ancient Israel clearly declared that there is only One True God, the Father. And the Lord Jesus Christ also declared that to attain eternal life is to accept that the Father is the only true God:

    John 17:3, 1 NIV
    “Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
    “After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.

    There is no contradiction in the Bible. This teaching of the Holy Scripture that the Father alone is the True God must not be contradicted. Thus, if a belief contradicts this teaching of the Bible that there is only One True God, the Father, that belief must be rejected. The apostles admonish the Christians to reject the “gospel” different from the one they preached:

    Galacia 1:6-8 NIV
    “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel- which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!”

    Did you know that the belief that the Lord Jesus is God contradict the teaching of the Bible that the Father alone is the true God?


    JESUS IS A MAN WHO HAS TOLD THE TRUTH
    WHICH HE HEARD FROM GOD


    John 8:40 NKJV
    “But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.”

    If Jesus is the true God then who is the God that from Him Jesus heard the truth? Hence, there will be two Gods.


    JESUS IS THE SERVANT OF GOD

    Acts 3:13 NKJV
    “The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go.”

    If Jesus is God, then God (Jesus) is a Servant of another God because Jesus is the Servant of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Thus, there will be two Gods.


    JESUS IS SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD

    Colossians 3:1 NKJV
    “If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.”

    Accepting Jesus as God is like saying that God is sitting at the right hand of another God because Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God.


    JESUS IS THE CHRIST OF GOD

    Luke 9:20 NKJV
    “He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered and said, ‘The Christ of God.’”

    Christ is God? Then “God is Christ of another God.” Truly, the belief that Christ is God deviate from the teachings of the Holy Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ of the One True God, the Father.


    JESUS IS GOD’S MESSENGER AND HIGH PRIEST

    Hebreo 3:1 LB
    “Therefore, dear brothers whom God has set apart for himself-you who are chosen for heaven-I want you to think now about this Jesus who is God's Messenger and the High Priest of our faith.”

    Thus, accepting Jesus as God is like accepting that God’s messenger is also God, and God’s High Priest is also God. Two Gods? God (Jesus) is the messenger of another God? God (Jesus) is the High Priest of another God? Truly, the teaching that Christ is God is a “different gospel.”


    JESUS IS THE LAMB OF GOD

    John 1:36 NKJV
    “And looking at Jesus as He walked, he said, ‘Behold the Lamb of God!’”

    Jesus is the “Lamb of God.” If Jesus is God, then God is the Lamb of another God. Two Gods? Is that acceptable to the Bible? No.


    GOD MADE JESUS LORD AND CHRIST

    Acts 2:36 NIV
    “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

    Thus, accepting Christ as God is like accepting that God was made Lord and Christ. And who is the God that made Him Lord and Christ? Then there will be two Gods.


    CONCLUSION

    These are only some of numerous verses in the Bible that prove that if we are going to accept that the Lord Jesus Christ is God, there will be two Gods, and this contradicts the teaching clearly written in the Bible that the Father alone is the True God.
     
  9. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Therefore? Who is the pater, what is his name, what are his characteristics etc etc

    John 1:18
    John 5:37

    These people certainly didn't know the pater, why not? Weren't they jews?

    Lots of unanswered questions there.
     
  10. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    What the Old Testament
    Teaches about God

    Numerous passages of the Old Testament confirm the teaching that there is only one true God, the Father, and no one else besides Him. In Malachi 2:10, the Old Testament clear tells us that the one God who created us is the Father:


    “Have we not all one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our fathers by breaking faith with one another?” (Mal. 2:10 NIV)

    Isaiah 64:8 confirms that the Father is the Lord who created us:


    “But you are our father, LORD. We are like clay, and you are like the potter. You created us,” (Is. 64:8 TEV)

    The Old Testament attests that there is no other God but the Lord (our Father):


    “How great you are, O Sovereign LORD! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.” (II Samuel 9:22 NIV)

    The Lord God Himself declares that there is no other God besides Him:


    “Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." (Is. 44:8 NIV)

    The Old Testament further declares that there is no other god with Him:


    “For I will give honour to the name of the Lord: let our God be named great. ‎He is the Rock, complete is his work; for all his ways are righteousness: a God without evil who keeps faith, true and upright is he.

    “‎So the Lord only was his guide, no other god was with him.” (Dt. 32:3-4 and 12 Bible Basic English)


    Thus, the teaching of the Old Testament about God is clear, that there is one true God, the Father.


    What the New Testament
    Teaches about God

    According to Apostle Paul, for true Christians there is only one true God, the Father:


    “Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live…” (I Cor. 8:6 NIV)

    They learned this from the Lord Jesus Christ who Himself taught that the Father is the only true God:


    “After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.

    “Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” (John 17:1, 3 NIV)


    According to Apostle Paul, the Father who is the one true God is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ:


    “If I have to ‘brag’ about myself, I'll brag about the humiliations that make me like Jesus. The eternal and blessed God and Father of our Master Jesus knows I'm not lying.” (II Cor. 11:30-31, The Message)

    Even Apostle Peter attested that the one true God is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ:


    “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.” (I Peter 1:3 NIV)

    Thus, the New Testament is also clear in its teachings about God, that there is only one true God, the Father.



    Trinity is Unbiblical

    Now, let us examine the doctrine called the Trinity, or the doctrine that there are three persons in one God. Is this doctrine biblical? In a book entitled “The Divine Trinity,” this is what this book admits regarding the doctrine of the Trinity:


    “It cannot therefore be seriously maintained that the mystery of the Divine Trinity was clearly revealed in the Old Testament.” (The Divine Trinity, A Dogmatic Treatise, by the Rt. Rev. Msgr. Joseph Pohle, Ph.D., D.D., p. 20.)

    The author admits that they cannot seriously maintain that the doctrine that there are three persons in one God (the doctrine of the Trinity) was clearly revealed in the Old Testament. The reason of this admission is because the doctrine of the Trinity is not known before the advent of Christ:


    “It is true that before the advent of Christ the Trinity of Persons was not known, not even to the inspired authors.” (Principles of Catholic Theology, Edward J. Gratsch, ed., p. 50.)

    This Catholic book quoted above clearly admits that the Trinity of Persons is not known before the advent of Christ, not even the inspired authors know them. Actually, the term "Trinity" and the doctrine that there are three persons in one God are no where in the Old Testament.

    How about in the New Testament? Can we found the word “Trinity” in the New Testament? This is the admission of another Catholic book:


    “The word Trinity does not appear in the New testament and the meanings of the words persons and nature, in the precise senses and which these words are used to bear the message of God, had to be carefully refined to bear that message rightly. But what the New Testament teaches is in truth captured with care and reverence in the exact statements of the early councils of the Church.” (The Teaching of Christ: A Catholic Catechism for Adults, by Ronald Lawler, Donald Wuerl and Thomas Comerford Lawler, p. 177.)

    If the word “Trinity” cannot be found both in the Old Testament and New Testament, where did this word came from? The book Systematic Theology explains this:

    upload_2019-8-17_9-46-59.jpeg

    “The term ‘Trinity’ is not found in Scripture…The invention of the term is ascribed to Tertullian.” (Systematic Theology, by Augustus Hopkins Strongs, D.D., L.L.D., p. 304.)


    Thus, the term “Trinity” and the doctrine that there are three persons in one God are both cannot be found in the Bible. Trinity is indeed an unbiblical doctrine.
     
  11. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    You didn't answer the questions, nor did you answer what those verses mean, from the book of John.
     
  12. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    So who is the Father?
    What is his characteristics?

    Jesus said about who is God:

    John 4:24 New International Version (NIV)
    God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”


    The teaching of Jesus apostles said about who is God:

    1 Timothy 1:17 New International Version (NIV)
    Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
     
  13. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    So, that isn't G-d, in

    Exodus 3:4-14?

    God talking to Moses, from the burning bush?
     
  14. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    John 5:37
    'Never heard Gods voice',

    These aren't Jews, who Jesus is talking to? They read from the Torah, presumably, so forth.
     
  15. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    John 1:18 New King James Version (NKJV)
    No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

    No one had seen God at anytime - you know why?

    John 4:24 New International Version (NIV)
    God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

    And that is how He [Jesus the Son] has declared Him.

    John 5:37 New King James Version (NKJV)
    And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

    It is true that the people whom Christ is addressing have not heard about God his Father.
    I see no problem or issue with that.

    But God spoke to the others and this is written in:

    Hebrews 1:1-2 New King James Version (NKJV)

    God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
     
  16. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    That's fine, so we believe in different Gods, obviously. That's what I wanted to know.
     
  17. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Exodus 3:2 New International Version (NIV)

    There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.

    [​IMG]


    Acts 7:30 New International Version (NIV)
    “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.


    upload_2019-8-17_10-16-11.jpeg
    John 5:16-37 New International Version (NIV)
    So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

    Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

    “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

    “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

    “If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true. There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is true.

    “You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth. Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be saved. John was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you chose for a time to enjoy his light.

    “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,
     
  18. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    1 Corinthians 8:5-7 New International Version (NIV)
    For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

    But not everyone possesses this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat sacrificial food they think of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled.
     
  19. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Presuming there is 'more' to your argument, however if you read the Bible directly, it contradicts those ideas, whatever they are.

    However, go ahead and present anything to back your argument.

    It is odd that you are associating 'idols' with direct Biblical text.
     
  20. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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