1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Nicene Creed

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by lostwanderingsoul, Aug 11, 2019 at 11:39 AM.

  1. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2015
    Messages:
    2,472
    Ratings:
    +775
    Religion:
    seeking
    Of course, the best way to spread a belief that makes no sense is to kill those who disagree. The sad path of many religions.
     
  2. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2017
    Messages:
    1,921
    Ratings:
    +256
    Religion:
    Iglesia Ni Cristo (Church of Christ)
    The Father's lordship was not given by anybody. The Father's lordship is inherent in Him as creator, as the only true God.

    Isaiah 45:18 New International Version (NIV)
    For this is what the Lord says—
    he who created the heavens,
    he is God
    ;
    he who fashioned and made the earth,
    he founded it;
    he did not create it to be empty,
    but formed it to be inhabited—
    he says:
    “I am the Lord,
    and there is no other
    .

    On the Bible passage we can read that The Lord God is the creator of the heavens and the earth. Who made God Lord? Nobody because his lordship comes natural and inherent in him as the creator, as God Almighty. Even if we do not mention "Lord", it is understood that God is Lord, King of Kings and the Most High.

    Is this lordship the same quality and characteristic as the lordship of the Lord Jesus Christ?

    Acts 2:36 New International Version (NIV)
    “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

    On this verse, the lordship of Jesus Christ was given by the Lord God.
    And lastly, we find nothing about the lordship of the Holy Spirit.
    Why is that so?
    Because the doctrine about the Trinity was first initiated in 325 AD
    and finalized in 381 AD
    A group of ancient bishops gathered in Nicaea and voted that Jesus Christ should be "god the son" and thus formed the First Council of Nicaea. In 325 AD, the doctrine that Jesus Christ is God was approved by non other than the pagan emperor of Rome - Constantine the Great. It is easy to note that the doctrine that the Holy Spirit is God was not yet formulated and un-established but this will come later after 56 years, long after Constantine the Great was succeeded by another emperor - Emperor Theodosius I
    on which another council was formed First Council of Constantinople - on that council they voted that the Holy Spirit should be "god the holy spirit".

    Nicene Creed - Wikipedia

    Fast forward in time, a lot of people believed this manufactured and invented doctrine - a lot is an understatement. This teaching is different from the Holy Scriptures which states:

    1 Corinthians 8:6-7 New International Version (NIV)
    yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

    But not everyone possesses this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat sacrificial food they think of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled.
     
  3. Guitar's Cry

    Guitar's Cry Verisimilitudinous

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2006
    Messages:
    11,699
    Ratings:
    +1,580
    Religion:
    Panreligious mystical paganism
    It's poetry, and poetry is freed from strict literal interpretation. If it's meaningful to the audience it is doing its job.

    My sense is that Christ and God (the same or not) utilize the Holy Spirit to inspire people. For the me the Holy Spirit is somewhat akin to the Muses of Greek mythology or Awen of the Druids.
     
  4. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    Messages:
    3,492
    Ratings:
    +2,449
    Religion:
    RC (culturally at least)
    Lord is a title, not an individual. So there can be more than one lord. But as in this case it refers to the Trinity, i.e. three persons in one God, the point is moot. All three persons deserve the title, that's all.
     
  5. Srivijaya

    Srivijaya Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2017
    Messages:
    643
    Ratings:
    +604
    Religion:
    Buddhist with a strong affinity for non-dual Shaivism
    It's not that difficult to get your head around. Shaivism has a similar approach. God is beyond all definition, his volition shakti (holy spirit) is active and the world of form is the final destination of energy coalescing into something tangible. All matter is energy, in any case, but we don't perceive it as such. Ice, water & evaporate are all various states of H2o. It really isn't that tough to understand.
     
  6. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2017
    Messages:
    1,921
    Ratings:
    +256
    Religion:
    Iglesia Ni Cristo (Church of Christ)
    In 325 AD to 381 AD, a couple of bishops and two pagan emperors initiated and formalized the invented doctrine the Trinity which is still now embraced these days. They invented a concept that three is one.

    [​IMG]

    Is the Father the Son and Holy Spirit?
    Is the Son the Father and Holy Spirit?
    Is the Holy Spirit the Father and the Son?
    If your answer is no, then the 3 persons are really different from each other
    If your answer is yes, then the Son fathered himself

    [​IMG]

    That is how the Trinity is absurd and hog wash.
     
  7. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Messages:
    3,932
    Ratings:
    +1,896
    As an Abrahamic Religionist, the Trinity does not compute. Here is a surprising list of Non Trinitarian Churches below. The trinitarians like to act like they are the authority. How surprising is that?
    Category:Nontrinitarian denominations - Wikipedia
     
  8. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2017
    Messages:
    1,921
    Ratings:
    +256
    Religion:
    Iglesia Ni Cristo (Church of Christ)
    I believe whatever is incorrect in one's individual faith
    people should open their eyes
    accept the truth and reject the lies
    before it is too late

    Isaiah 44:18 New International Version (NIV)
    They know nothing, they understand nothing;
    their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see,
    and their minds closed so they cannot understand.


    upload_2019-8-13_13-52-33.jpeg

    When some doctrine cannot be defended by reason, cannot be defended by logic
    Then that doctrine is just dogma. A teaching that requires blind following.
    A teaching that is destructive, false and man made.
    A false teaching devoid of the truth.
     
  9. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    Messages:
    3,492
    Ratings:
    +2,449
    Religion:
    RC (culturally at least)
    Off the point.

    I am not defending the doctrine, just pointing out how it can be that the title "Lord" is applied to different persons of the Trinity, which is what was bothering the person I was replying to.
     
  10. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2017
    Messages:
    1,921
    Ratings:
    +256
    Religion:
    Iglesia Ni Cristo (Church of Christ)
    The Lord God Almighty is Lord
    The Lord Jesus Christ is Lord

    How come the Holy Spirit is not Lord???

    [​IMG]
     
  11. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    Messages:
    3,492
    Ratings:
    +2,449
    Religion:
    RC (culturally at least)
    Et in Spiritum Sanctum Dominum, et vivificantem: qui ex Patre Filioque procedit.
     
  12. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2017
    Messages:
    1,921
    Ratings:
    +256
    Religion:
    Iglesia Ni Cristo (Church of Christ)
    [​IMG]

    Credo - Wikipedia

    Et in Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum et vivificantem,
    And (I believe) in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and life-giver,
    upload_2019-8-13_22-18-31.jpeg

    So its not in the Bible
    The text was gradually incorporated into the liturgies, first in the east and in Spain, and gradually into the north, from the sixth to the ninth century. In 1014 it was accepted by the Church of Rome as a legitimate part of the Mass. It is recited in the Western Mass directly after the Homily on all Sundays and Solemnities; in modern celebrations of the Tridentine Mass as an extraordinary form of the Roman Rite, the Credo is recited on all Sundays, feasts of the I class, II class feasts of the Lord and of the Blessed Virgin, on the days within the octaves of Christmas, Easter, and Pentecost, and on the "birthday" feasts of the apostles and evangelists (including the feasts of St. Peter's Chair and of St. Barnabas).[1] It is recited in the Orthodox Liturgy following the Litany of Supplication on all occasions.
     
  13. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    Messages:
    3,492
    Ratings:
    +2,449
    Religion:
    RC (culturally at least)
    Zzzzz.

    Look, I got into this because Lostwanderingsoul had difficulty with some of the things Shiranui was saying, to do with the Creed. The thread title is the Nicene Creed and it was started in order to discuss how to interpret the Nicene Creed. This creed has been part of the faith since the c.4th.

    I did not, and do not, intend to get into a tiresome debate with you about the Trinity.
     
  14. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2017
    Messages:
    1,921
    Ratings:
    +256
    Religion:
    Iglesia Ni Cristo (Church of Christ)
    [​IMG]

    What was the faith in the 1st century?
    The Holy Spirit is NOT LORD.

    What was the faith in the 2nd century?
    The Holy Spirit is NOT LORD.

    What was the faith in the 3rd century?
    The Holy Spirit is NOT LORD.

    And when the 4th century arrived at the end of 381 AD.

    [​IMG]

    Just sayin....there is something amiss
    If there is a mistake, I believe it is prudent to correct it.
     
  15. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    3,503
    Ratings:
    +1,419
    Religion:
    Catholic

    Triune God one divine Essence. According to Catholic belief, the Father and the Son together are the source of the Holy Spirit, which is the bond of love flowing mutually between them. The Father is the ultimate origin; the Son is the perfect image and expression of the Father who makes the Father known to human beings; the Spirit is the power of God that enables Christians to accept Jesus as the revelation of God the Father.
    Basil wrote the' human understanding of numbers is in no way adequate for understanding the Trinity; the Unapproachable One is beyond numbers, We have never to this day heard of a second God.'
     
  16. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2015
    Messages:
    2,472
    Ratings:
    +775
    Religion:
    seeking
    It still baffles me how they can say "we believe in one God,the Father" when they believe all three are God. And also say "we be;ieve in one Lord, Jesus Christ" when they believe all three are Lord. There is either on or three but can't be both so the words make no sense but because they have been saying them for many centuries they do not stop to question anything.
     
  17. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2017
    Messages:
    1,921
    Ratings:
    +256
    Religion:
    Iglesia Ni Cristo (Church of Christ)
    [​IMG]

    Really? It is hard to understand or the invented doctrine just has many holes in it?

    THE TRINITARIANS KNEW that if they cannot prove that the doctrine of the trinity is biblical, this doctrine cannot be accepted by true Christians because according to Apostles Paul we must condemned the “different gospel.”

    In Galatians 1:6-8, this is what Apostle Paul said:

    “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel - which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!” (Galacia 1:6-8 NIV)

    According to the Apostles Paul, “Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.” The beloved apostle called their teaching as “a different gospel” and admonish the Christians to condemned these teachings.Apostle Peter clearly warned us that false teachers will appear and will bring destructive, untrue doctrines:

    "False prophets appeared in the past among the people, and in the same way false teachers will appear among you. They will bring in destructive, untrue doctrines, and will deny the Master who redeemed them, and so they will bring upon themselves sudden destruction." (II Peter 2:1 TEV)

    What Apostle Peter calls as “destructive, untrue doctrine” is what Apostle Paul calls as “different gospel,” which is a confused and perverted gospel of Christ.What is an example of what the Lord Jesus Christ taught that “perverted” and “confused” by the false teachers? In John 17:1 and 3, this is what the Lord Jesus Christ said:

    “After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: 'Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.
    “Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” (John 17:1 and 3 NIV)

    Christ taught us that there is only one true God, the Father. This is the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ regarding the true God that we all must accept and adhere. He said, “Father…this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God.” Remember what Apostle Paul said, “Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.” Thus, the false teachers will confused and pervert the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ that there is only one true God, the Father.

    How did the false teachers confused and perverted the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ that there is only one true God and that the Father is the only true God?

    The Perverted Doctrine about God

    What Apostle Paul referring to as “a different gospel” is a perverted gospel of Christ. The word “pervert” means “misinterpret or distort something.” Thus, a misinterpreted or distorted gospel or doctrine of Christ about God is “a different gospel” that we must condemned. The Lord Jesus Christ said that “the Father is the only true God.” How did the false teachers perverted or distorted this teaching of Christ? A Catholic book titled “The Creed” tells is the doctrine of the Catholic Church about God:

    “The three persons then, being only one God, are perfectly equal in perfection, majesty and glory: ‘the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit possess one God-head, equal glory and co-eternal majesty. As the Father is, so is the Son, also is the Holy Spirit…the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but only one God’ (from the Athanasian Creed).” [Gran, Sister Ma. Valerie, D.S.P. The Creed. Nihil Obstat: Rt. Rev. Msgr. Victor R. Serrano, H.P. Imprimatur: Rt. Rev. Msgr. Benjamin L. Marino, P.A. Pasay, Metro Manila, Phillipines: Daughters of St. PaulPublications, 1984, p. p. 50.]

    The Catholics and even the Protestants believe that there are three persons in one God - the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and these three are only one God. However, the gospel or the teachings of Christ clearly states that the Father alone is the only true God. The doctrine of the Trinity is indeed a perversion of distortion of the teachings of Christ about God.

    There are people who insist that the doctrine of the Trinity (that there is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, and these trhee are one God) is not a distortion of the teaching of Christ that the the Father is the only true God. Apostle Paul has an explanation why they cannot see the light of the Gospel of Christ:

    “The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.” (II Corinthians 4:4 NIV)

    The trinitarians (those who adhere to the Trinitarian doctrine) insist that the Trinitry is the true Chrisian doctrine. However, this is what apostle Paul teaches about the true Christian doctrine about God:

    "Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live." (I Corinthians 8:6 NIV)
    Apostle Paul said, "For us" (he is referring to the true Christians), "there is but one God, the Father." Thus, the true Christians adhere the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ that the Father is the only true God. This proves that the doctrine that the one true God are the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is the perverted or distorted teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ which adhere by true Christians that the father alone is the only true God.
     
  18. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    19,570
    Ratings:
    +1,612
    Religion:
    Jesus & the High God, on The Throne, surrounded by angels
    Yeah that doesn't make sense, agree.

    it's not even biblical.
     
  19. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    3,503
    Ratings:
    +1,419
    Religion:
    Catholic
    You are confusing the idea of 'person' by placing today's concept back into the Trinitarian doctrine.

    The 'three Persons' who exist in God are the reality of word and love in their attachment to each other. They are not substances, personalities in the modern sense, but the relatedness whose pure actuality does not impair the unity of the highest being but fills it out.

    'Father' is purely a concept of relationship. Only in being for the other is he Father. In his own being in himself he is simply God. Person is the pure relation of being related, nothing else. Relationship is not something extra added to the person, as it is with us; it only exists at all as relatedness.

    In his sublime prayer at the Last Supper (John 17), he prayed first for the Apostles and then specifically for all they would in turn invite to follow him: "Yet not for these only do I pray, but for those who through their word are to believe in me, that all may be one, even as thou, Father, in me and in thee; that they may also be one in us, that the world may believe that thou hast sent me"

    One opinion among many. The Imprimatur and Nihil Obstst does not signal agreement with the author, simply that a book is without heresy.
     
  20. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2015
    Messages:
    2,472
    Ratings:
    +775
    Religion:
    seeking
    Well, I don't know. When you have a father and a son, it sure sounds like two persons.Saying one is a father only in "being for the other" sounds like trying too hard to explain something that does not make sense. The father and son are two different "people" but they are both holy and are both God.
     
Loading...