Newdow is at it again

[Majikthise]

I wonder if some Athiests (not all) get touchy about these things because they left a religion for one reason or another and hold hard feelings towards the religion that they left. It seems that starting lawsuits over things that have little impact on your life (but agitate the people on the other side of the lawsuit) could be a way to fight against one's former beliefs.

I think that that being able to admit you are an atheist and voice your opinions holds less of a stigma than it once did. Some Christians (not all) complain a lot that they are being stigmatized by secular groups more and more often these days. This is ,of course, an equalizer to curry sympathy based in a loss of some political control. Many atheists attack christianity in particular because it is christianity that most often attempts to discredit atheism. And round and round we go over the most insignificant things.Knockout

 

[Bennettresearch]

Hi Linwood,

You missed the point. Newdow didn't take this to court because he really though that it didn't define the United States. He feels marginalized so he launched an attack that his own wife rejected. The "us and them" statement applies to the fact once the United States is dismantled in the name of fairness to all, those that dismantled it will instill their own ideology. They will consider objectionists as being the "them".

I disagree with your statement about this being "our country." There are too many people attacking the system and culture for me to want to Kumbaya with them.

 

[Jaymes]

He feels marginalized so he launched an attack that his own wife rejected.

Do you have a source for this, or is this from a firsthand conversation with him? :sarcastic Unless he's come out and said that or you've personally talked to him, it's naught but speculation.

I disagree with your statement about this being "our country." There are too many people attacking the system and culture for me to want to Kumbaya with them.

There are people I don't want to share this earth with, but we have to. Us disliking someone doesn't make them magically go away. We have to get over ourselves and our differences and figure out that it's either learn to live together or learn to die together.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I disagree with your statement about this being "our country." There are too many people attacking the system and culture for me to want to Kumbaya with them.

Respectfully, you really would benefit by having a more modest perspective of yourself. This is, in fact, my country, and that fact is wholly unaffected by whether or not you wish to "Kumbaya" with me.

 

[linwood]

You missed the point. Newdow didn't take this to court because he really though that it didn't define the United States. He feels marginalized so he launched an attack that his own wife rejected.

I`m afraid it`s you who is missing the point.
This isn`t about Newdow nor is it about Newdows child.
It`s about constitutional legality regardless of his personal standing what matters is if his argument is correct.

I disagree with your statement about this being "our country." There are too many people attacking the system and culture for me to want to Kumbaya with them.

You further my point with each post that you make.

So now according to you I am not a part of this country.
I was born here, schooled here, work here, pay my taxes, have an intimate investment in what happens here.
Born the 6th generation of my branch of my family tree here and all of a sudden I don`t belong, I`m not an American.

Thank you for underlining and spotlighting the intolerence you and those who share your ideology nurture.
People don`t believe me when I tell them it exists sometimes.

 

[Flappycat]

Not to get too far off the topic of this thread, but when do you expect this to happen?

As soon as it possibly can.

 

[gnomon]

Taking on the Mormons in Salt Lake City? Whew, now that is ambitious!!!:banghead3

Some good news in Everett Washington, they decided to let the courthouse keep its 40 year old granite sculpture of the Ten Commandments. It was decided that it did not violate anyone's rights.

As far as discounting the universality of the word God in the pledge, this has not been proven. The ritual of the pledge of allegiance is tradition and it is not a bad one in my opinion. I was an atheist in school and still said "under god" in the pledge. One student was allowed to sit down and not say anything. As far as I know, no one said much about it. When I was performing in a band for a meeting of the local leaders once, I sat out on the prayer. No one acted the least bit derrogatory towards me. I look back and respect those people for demonstrating what Christianity is all about, the tolerance of others.

Michael Medved, who is Jewish and has a talk show, says many times that this country was founded on Christianity. I think that people who have a problem with Christianity are misled in declaring that it is not. This whole country is being challenged at its very roots right now. This is why some people want to hold on to some kind of statement of loyalty.

I would challenge those who are kicking at the pledge by asking that if they were in the majority wouldn't they want to demonstrate their cultural ideals? Would you want someone to come in and trash out your system to replace it with theirs?

How can this be a tradition? How many generations must pass in order for something to become traditional? Seems to me the pledge has been an issue for quite some time and considering that the "under God" has been around for a short time, relatively, that it cannot be considered traditional. It has not had the time and proper acceptance by all Americans to be considered an American tradition.

I challenge the pledge not only on the grounds of the establishment clause but on the first two words .... "I pledge..". It has been my understanding that as a citizen of this country I am not obliged to pledge to any entity be it God, country or apple pie. The whole concept of the republican government which has been established is that the people are self-governed. Elected representatives pledge to the people. How in the world can we engender awareness of this ideal by telling kids to stand up, put their right hand over their heart and recite a pledge of allegiance.

Normally I could care less about the issue but since learning about the very abusive nature of our government and its growing disregard for the Constitution I feel that this particular issue is no really a ridiculous one any longer. Especially if it allows people to hopefully examine the exact nature of this nation.

 

[Flappycat]

I think that that being able to admit you are an atheist and voice your opinions holds less of a stigma than it once did.

You got that right.

Some Christians (not all) complain a lot that they are being stigmatized by secular groups more and more often these days.

Perhaps they should stop voting for people who represent them with statements such as "No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots."

This is ,of course, an equalizer to curry sympathy based in a loss of some political control. Many atheists attack christianity in particular because it is christianity that most often attempts to discredit atheism.

However, it doesn't help that atheists are practically the only religious minority remaining that politicians can get away with sharing negative opinions about. The Dali Lama can even get away with it.

And round and round we go over the most insignificant things.Knockout

Yeah.

The thing is, it's hard to gain much sympathy when the only words you can offer on the subject of religion, without being dishonest, are "It's all rubbish." It's a simple fact that most atheists I've encountered find the mawkish displays of devotion, the positively laughable beliefs, and the absolutely hokey pseudo-philosophy completely ridiculous and incapable of being taken seriously by anyone who has the least amount of self-respect. Even if phrased delicately, the sentiment is still there. The worst we're ever likely to do, even in the event of becoming a majority, is point and giggle, but the strange thing about people is that they'd greatly prefer the relative dignity of being persecuted or in some way oppressed; at least then, they feel they're being taken seriously.

 

[Majikthise]

Hi Linwood,
I disagree with your statement about this being "our country." There are too many people attacking the system and culture for me to want to Kumbaya with them.

Kumbayaing is over rated anyway.

 

[The Black Whirlwind]

The Christians aren't going to be the dominant group in this country for much longer.

i doubt it. I never think athiests are going to be dominant. it just wont happen.

 

[Sunstone]

i doubt it. I never think athiests are going to be dominant. it just wont happen.

I have to agree with the Jedi on this one. I think humans are inherently religious and, so, atheism will never be a dominant view.

 

[Flappycat]

I have to agree with the Jedi on this one. I think humans are inherently religious and, so, atheism will never be a dominant view.

Actually, atheists just don't have quite as much motivation to proslytize. In spite of this, however, Christianity is gradually becoming less popular for the simple reason that people are ceasing to care. Church attendance rates are in the gutter, and each successive generation seems to have a higher proportion of people who don't really have any religious leanings at all. I'm no fortune reader, of course, but I will say that you should put away your own crystal ball.

never

Careful with that word. Atheists are dominant in some parts of Western Europe, you know.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I think humans are inherently religious and, so, atheism will never be a dominant view.

This presumes, in part, that { religious = theistic } which, I believe, is erroneous.

 

[The Black Whirlwind]

Actually, atheists just don't have quite as much motivation to proslytize. In spite of this, however, Christianity is gradually becoming less popular for the simple reason that people are ceasing to care. Church attendance rates are in the gutter, and each successive generation seems to have a higher proportion of people who don't really have any religious leanings at all. I'm no fortune reader, of course, but I will say that you should put away your own crystal ball.

christianity is becoming les popular, but its shown that Islam is surging in its followers. Just because christianity is seemingly getting booted, it doesn't mean athiesm will rise to the top.

 

[Flappycat]

christianity is becoming les popular, but its shown that Islam is surging in its followers. Just because christianity is seemingly getting booted, it doesn't mean athiesm will rise to the top.

And the fact that Islam is spreading in some parts of the world does not mean that it will take root everywhere or last forever. One of these days, religion's going to be a forgotten thing of the past. Do you wish me to ennumerate the countries in which atheists comprise over 30% of the population? As much as half? Spend all the time you like insisting that there is some kind of natural religiosity in humans, but it doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[The Black Whirlwind]

there will always be a curiousity for the unknown in humans, that which science will never be able to explain. religion fills that void. i doubt its ever going to go out of fashion.

 

[Flappycat]

there will always be a curiousity for the unknown in humans, that which science will never be able to explain. religion fills that void. i doubt its ever going to go out of fashion.

How fashionable of you. Humans have a natural curiosity about everything, but the ready availability of information in the modern age makes religion pretty redundant in this regard. Baselessly deny it until the planet disintegrates, but religious pseudo-philosophy can't outclass substantial understanding for long. How long do you think that a religion which demands submission and conformity can last in a world that values irreverence and individualism? Some religious leaders are attempting to liberalize, true, but it's too little, too late. Besides, watering down a religion weakens it in an entirely different way, as many fundamentalist leaders have pointed out. Our thirst for understanding may send us to the heavens, but do you seriously think that we'll take the idea of Heaven with us when we venture to other stars?

Perhaps humans have a curiosity about the unknown, but a vast library of assorted information is much more interesting, in the end, than a book advertised to one as a fix-all.

 

[Sunstone]

This presumes, in part, that { religious = theistic } which, I believe, is erroneous.

I stand corrected. The impulse for coherence and meaning can be found in people who are not at all theistic.

 

[Fascist Christ]

Ban the whole pledge. We don't need the brainwashing and social engineering inherent in cloth-worshipping. Allegiance shown is freedom blown.

 

[Flappycat]

Ban the whole pledge. We don't need the brainwashing and social engineering inherent in cloth-worshipping. Allegiance shown is freedom blown.

Sounds good to me.