New proseltysing tactic

[Pegg]

My God makes no requests. He is just plain unconditional Love.

but if he did request something, would you do it?

 

[Pegg]

Yes. Jesus commanded his disciples to disciple in his stead. The word "make" does not exist in the original text. Jesus said "going [his going to the Father] disciple the nations" [because I am going to the Father].

so yes, Jesus commands it, and we will do it until its done.

 

[savagewind]

so yes, Jesus commands it, and we will do it until its done.

YOU make "disciple" to mean make diciples.

Mark 6:7 Calling the Twelve to him, he began to send them out two by two and gave them authority over impure spirits.

8 These were his instructions: “Take nothing for the journey except a staff—no bread, no bag, no money in your belts. 9 Wear sandals but not an extra shirt. 10 Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town. 11 And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, leave that place and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.”

12 They went out and preached that people should repent. 13 They drove out many demons and anointed many sick people with oil and healed them.

Matthew 4:24 News about him spread all over Syria, and people brought to him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed; and he healed them.

Where does scripture say "and he made them disciples of him"?

"To disciple" means to be like him while at the same time learning from him.

DID JESUS MAKE DISCIPLES???????? Yes or no?

Please provide the scriptural bridge that connects "repent" with "become a disciple". A bridge being another place in scripture where the lesson is learned repent means become a disciple.

 

[Pegg]

YOU make "disciple" to mean make diciples.

Mark 6:7 Calling the Twelve to him, he began to send them out two by two and gave them authority over impure spirits.

8 These were his instructions: “Take nothing for the journey except a staff—no bread, no bag, no money in your belts. 9 Wear sandals but not an extra shirt. 10 Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town. 11 And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, leave that place and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.”

12 They went out and preached that people should repent. 13 They drove out many demons and anointed many sick people with oil and healed them.

Matthew 4:24 News about him spread all over Syria, and people brought to him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed; and he healed them.

Where does scripture say "and he made them disciples of him"?

"To disciple" means to be like him while at the same time learning from him.

DID JESUS MAKE DISCIPLES???????? Yes or no?

Please provide the scriptural bridge that connects "repent" with "become a disciple". A bridge being another place in scripture where the lesson is learned repent means become a disciple.

Jesus had many disciples....people whom he himself had preached to.
To his apostles, he said:
Matthew 28:19  Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.

What was one of the commandments given to the Apostles? Was it not to "go therefore and make disciples of people"
That was one of the commandments they were to teach. And when someone had learned to be a disciple, they would likewise teach others to be disciples.

We are all disciples and we are all commanded to go and make more disciples.

But Jesus did not only send out his 12 apostles to teach and make disciples. He also had other disicples who were also spreading the message of the Kingdom.
Luke 10:1 After these things the Lord designated 70 others and sent them out by twos ahead of him into every city and place where he himself was to go. ....
8 “Also, wherever you enter into a city and they receive you, eat what is set before you 9 and cure the sick ones in it and tell them: ‘The Kingdom of God has come near to you.’ 10 But wherever you enter into a city and they do not receive you, go out into its main streets and say: 11 ‘We wipe off against you even the dust that sticks to our feet from your city. Nevertheless, know this, that the Kingdom of God has come near.’

All Jesus followers were both disciples of him, and teachers of others in order to make disciples for Jesus.

 

[savagewind]

All Jesus followers were both disciples of him, and teachers of others.

This is the truth

in order to make disciples for Jesus.

This part is not true. You can not prove it by scripture.

What is the purpose of more disciples for Jesus?

 

[savagewind]

cure the sick ones

Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe the laying on of hands for curing is still God's will. Do You?

 

[JayJayDee]

And here you are, claiming to be a minister of righteousness guided by something like an angel of light. What should I make of that? Even taking your theology as a given, I should find you untrustworthy.

I don't recall saying any such thing.
You can find the message as untrustworthy as you like. I can't force it on you. I can only offer it....that's all.

Of course, I don't take your theology as a given. I don't really care what the Bible says,

That is your prerogative as a free moral agent.

but I do find it rather hubristic for you to claim that a being more deceitful than any human being is out there trying to mislead everyone he can, but only you and your fellow Jehovah's Witnesses are smart enough to see through this and find the "truth".

This is what the Bible says. If you don't believe the Bible, what more is there to say? I believe that Jehovah's Witnesses fulfill all that is required of Christ's followers. I searched for my spiritual home for a long time and these people had something that no one else offered. The truth.
If it's not your truth, then go in peace...have a nice life.

Frankly, I find it astoundingly hypocritical for you to say things like this, since, IMO, you're part and parcel of this religious hatred.

Maybe not the "bloodshed" part, given the JW stance on pacifism, but I see more hate than average in your descriptions of other religions.

Jesus wasn't too impressed with the way the Pharisees practiced their religion either....“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in.
15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·hen′na twice as much so as yourselves."
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cumin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness. These things it was necessary to do, yet not to disregard the other things. 24 Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel!
25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of greediness and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee, cleanse first the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may also become clean.
27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you resemble whitewashed graves, which outwardly indeed appear beautiful but inside are full of dead men’s bones and of every sort of uncleanness. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you build the graves of the prophets and decorate the tombs of the righteous ones, 30 and you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have shared with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Therefore, you are testifying against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Well, then, fill up the measure of your forefathers.
“Serpents, offspring of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of Ge·hen′na? " (Matt 23:13-33)

In fact God was so unimpressed with the practicers of false worship in the past, that he eliminated a good number of them from existence. He will yet do the same in the future. As Creator he has the right to say who retains the gift of life...and who loses it.

There is no hatred for people, just a hatred for falsehood and hypocrisy. God hates it too.

So why not address it? Why not go after the messengers of "Satan" before dealing with everyone else?

We go to everyone. That is because everyone on earth is going to face this judgment, religion or no religion. (Luke 21:34-36)

For one thing, you talk about "a long time ago", I think you're relying on your religion's leadership here and haven't bothered to investigate other religions yourself.

Well let me tell you, that when I left the church I grew up in, I investigated all sorts of other religions, hoping to find where I belonged. I knew it wasn't in Christendom because they actually taught me that everything that happens is God's will. I couldn't love a God who made people suffer.

Other non-Christian religions relied too heavily on idol worship and fantasy, that was just not me either. Fake gods were just as abhorrent to me as no God at all. Evolution made no sense to me either. Too much evidence of intelligent design in nature to be a series of fortunate accidents.

I even tried the LDS, but their explanations were ridiculous. Just when I was ready to ditch the whole religion thing and put it in the too hard basket, two ladies knocked at my door. Sarcastically I asked them the same questions that I had asked of people from other faiths.....to my complete surprise, they answered all of them with the Bible. These were the last people on earth I expected to teach me anything, but I was dead wrong. Their message was positive and it gave me reasons for everything. Not 'pie in the sky' answers, but sound, logical Bible based answers. So don't tell me I haven't bothered to investigate other religions. OK?

For another, the way you keep on going back to the Bible suggests to me that you're only concerned about what's in accordance with the Bible, not with what's true.

To me, they are one and the same.

I see no evidence that you've even considered the possibility that the Bible might be wrong. If you're going to be a responsible "emergency services worker", you need to do this.

Do I? On whose say so? Yours? Have you ever considered the possibility that the Bible might be right? Have you ever really studied it in any depth?

No, you're not. If you were doing what I suggested, you wouldn't be going door-to-door; you'd focus your efforts on other competing proselytizers of other religions.

That isn't what Jesus told us to do.
What other "competing proselytizers" do you mean? I haven't actually encountered any.

It seems to me that if you're sincere, it would give you the most "bang for the buck": if you're right, then if you stop some non-JW proselytizer from "leading people astray", then you would have done good well beyond the single person you converted.

All Christians are converted one person at a time. They are not faces in a crowd...they are cherished individuals who mean something to Jesus and his Father. Christ was sent to save such people from the fate that satan brought upon Adam's children. If you do not wish to be part of that arrangement, then that is your choice to make.

And if you're wrong, then the proselytizers just bother each other and leave the rest of us alone.

It's a win-win.

It will be a win-win situation anyway. God's purpose goes ahead with us or without us.
For those of us who choose the right side of the issue of Universal Sovereignty, the reward will be more wonderful than anything we can imagine. That is where I place my hope. You can place yours anywhere you like.

I guarantee that we will leave you alone one day...maybe sooner than you think. :sad:

 

[savagewind]

Jesus had many disciples....people whom he himself had preached to.
To his apostles, he said:
Matthew 28:19  Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.

What was one of the commandments given to the Apostles? Was it not to "go therefore and make disciples of people"
That was one of the commandments they were to teach. And when someone had learned to be a disciple, they would likewise teach others to be disciples.

We are all disciples and we are all commanded to go and make more disciples.
[/COLOR][/I]

All Jesus followers were both disciples of him, and teachers of others in order to make disciples for Jesus.

"Jesus had many disciples....people whom he himself had preached to. " this does not answer the question.

Did Jesus "MAKE" disciples?

 

[savagewind]

Make 1. form (something) by putting parts together or combining substances; construct; create.
2. cause (something) to exist or come about; bring about.

 

[Pegg]

"Jesus had many disciples....people whom he himself had preached to. " this does not answer the question.

Did Jesus "MAKE" disciples?

2 tsp of butter
pinch of salt


yeah, i'd say he did.

 

[savagewind]

2 tsp of butter
pinch of salt


yeah, i'd say he did.

If Jesus is able to make a disciple why doesn't he make everyone a disciple?

 

[Pegg]

Make 1. form (something) by putting parts together or combining substances; construct; create.
2. cause (something) to exist or come about; bring about.

Revelation 1:6  and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father...

Luke 22:28-30)“However, you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom


Matt 15:1 So the crowd felt amazement as they saw the speechless speaking and the maimed being made sound and the lame walking


You dont think you might be just taking these words a tad to literally?

 

[Pegg]

If Jesus is able to make a disciple why doesn't he make everyone a disciple?

not everyone wants to be a disciple.

To be a disciples means to first learn, then to follow. Not everyone is teachable and not everyone is a follower.

 

[Robert.Evans]

"Jesus had many disciples....people whom he himself had preached to. " this does not answer the question.

Did Jesus "MAKE" disciples?

It might be said that you do take it to literal....however, it says that the Father draws them and then gives them to the son. This would mean that he does not make disciples as such, as they come from the Father. In other words he is only teaching those who already believe. I can't think of one instance, off the top of me head, where someone believes having not already believed, which if correct, is an interesting point.

 

[savagewind]

not everyone wants to be a disciple.

To be a disciples means to first learn, then to follow. Not everyone is teachable and not everyone is a follower.

I am saying no one can Make another person be a follower but making people follow is what "make disciples" means. Yes I am taking it literally. It is The Son of God speaking for Christ's sake.

Disciple the nations means teach anyone you may come across what Jesus taught and the fact that he is king. It does not mean "follow us". But that is what the Jehovah's Witnesses teach. "Join us to save the life" is EXACTLY what the religion of JWs teach.

The only ones who Jesus said "follow me" are the apostles. He never said "come, let me make you into a disciple for me". NEVER.

 

[savagewind]

It might be said that you do take it to literal....however, it says that the Father draws them and then gives them to the son. This would mean that he does not make disciples as such, as they come from the Father. In other words he is only teaching those who already believe. I can't think of one instance, off the top of me head, where someone believes having not already believed, which if correct, is an interesting point.

THANK YOU! God bless your reasonableness!

 

[mystic64]

Who will hear from God Jehovah about stopping or not stopping?

If Jehovah tells your governing body Jesus never said "go make disciples" and you must stop, would they? Would they admit their error? Have they ever?

Actually they did They acknowledged that they had made a mistake when they attempted to use Protestant Christian Holy Scripture to pin down the exact date that our Lord and Saviour was to return and some other dates that turned out to not be real. And they apologized and said that they never claimed that what they published was an absolute, and that they were only Human, and that they were not recieving direct information from Angels or God, and that they were sorry for any disappointment that they may have caused.

I have the PDF of the abstract that I am refurring to that was created by Jehovah Witness leadership in responce to some "opps"es, but I do not have the internet address to it's location. It was an interesting read and where I got the quote, "The Jehovah Witness organization is that only true Christian organization in today's world."

And thank you Savagewind for posting the definition of "Proseltysing", that was very helpful to me and a gift to understanding the wisdom of the wording of the OP. This topic is not about "preaching", it is about "proseltysing". And they are two different breeds of cat .

 

[mystic64]

Actually they did They acknowledged that they had made a mistake when they attempted to use Protestant Christian Holy Scripture to pin down the exact date that our Lord and Saviour was to return and some other dates that turned out to not be real. And they apologized and said that they never claimed that what they published was an absolute, and that they were only Human, and that they were not recieving direct information from Angels or God, and that they were sorry for any disappointment that they may have caused.

I have the PDF of the abstract that I am refurring to that was created by Jehovah Witness leadership in responce to some "opps"es, but I do not have the internet address to it's location. It was an interesting read and where I got the quote, "The Jehovah Witness organization is that only true Christian organization in today's world."

And thank you Savagewind for posting the definition of "Proseltysing", that was very helpful to me and a gift to understanding the wisdom of the wording of the OP. This topic is not about "preaching", it is about "proseltysing". And they are two different breeds of cat .

And because the OP created a discussion about children being involved in "Proseltysing" by their parents, "Children obey your parents.", which means that the childern have not any choice, the question becomes, "What is the complete message/set of beliefs that these children are being told that they have to "proseltyse" door to door in the neighborhoods that they live in with the understanding that they are going to recieve some psychololgical abuse while doing it because of the nature of Satan?"

If we as a society are going to allow children to "proseltyse" a message/set of beliefs, door to door, then we as a society should have a complete understanding of what is exactly being "proseltyized" by these children because they are obeying their parents. And technically no one that is under legal age should be allowed to "proseltyize" any ideology message door to door, religious or otherwise.

 

[Vinayaka]

Time and place, and respect that, that's about all.

 

[ZooGirl02]

I see absolutely nothing wrong with bringing children with you when you are evangelizing. For one thing, it could help in teaching them to evangelize as well. But that's my own personal opinion.