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Near death experiences

Discussion in 'Paranormal Activities' started by Unveiled Artist, Oct 8, 2018.

  1. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I was reading this earlier about what happens to brain activity after declared clinically dead.
    This study tells us that reduction of oxygen or both oxygen and glucose during cardiac arrest can stimulate brain activity that is characteristic of conscious processing,” says Borjigin. “It also provides the first scientific framework for the near-death experiences reported by many cardiac arrest survivors.”​

    I've never believed near death experiences as spiritually connected. I feel unusual and mysterious experiences are purely mind and brain oriented. Though, for some reason seeing it from the mind and brain devalues the nature and described meaning of the events. I don't know why, but things like soul, consciousness, god, and spirit never set right with me because it assumes that there is a special seperating between nature and reality and the rest of the world. Having epilepsy made me see things are just not that way.
     
    #1 Unveiled Artist, Oct 8, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2018
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  2. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    I really don't know why NDEs are so special. I've had vivid dreams that really had changed the course of my life so I can understand the effect of an NDE based on how it's described.

    But the bottom line is the person was not completely dead. Hence the term near-death.

    NDEs like dreams only occur when the brain is active. Usually when the person is close to coming around, and can recollect experiences.

    It's fascinating but not convincing there is something more to it other than the uncannily vivid quality of those experiences.

    They have been reproduced in centrifuges such as those in Pilot training when oxygen becomes an issue with the brain.
     
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  3. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    True. I remember having out of body experiences. I found out the temporal lobe can affect consciousness and to an extent hallucinations. That's the part of the brain I have seizures. Now a lot of my weird experiences make sense but have no less value to them if I thought they were spiritual.
     
  4. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    The brain is a pretty freaky organ .

    I wish I could find it again but I remember coming across an article about a girl who actually had an nde during surgery.

    Her experience had coincided with the procedure such as sensations of cold , heat, pressure, and auditory input. The amazing thing is those sensations coincided in sync with the procedures.

    For her it was an encounter in a beautiful garden where she felt wet felt cold, met interesting people there, and had conversations. Interestingly enough there was a connection with the surgery and the experiences in that vision.

    I just wish I could remember her name.
     
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  5. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    Here is a girl that was put into a coma....



    I would say ndes are very similar.
     
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  6. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Yeah. My former friend has congestive heart disease at a young age. She said one time she woke up in the operating room as they were cleaning her skin with a cotton swab. I read that some surgeries doctors need patients to be awake. Some heart surgeries are one of them. My brain surgery though I didn't have that "advantage" thank gosh.
     
  7. lioncub1503

    lioncub1503 Seven ate nine

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    The closest I have come to a near death experience is when I am late and crossing a road ;)
     
  8. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Good she has good spirits. I had one conversation with three people the study room at my college. Those people I found out wasn't there. The rest of the students told me I spoke to no one. Scared the Sh'living daylights out of me.
     
  9. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    All experiences are brain related that is self evident without any need to state and to say near death experiences are brain related is also self evident and that observational statement itself is brain related as well as this entire post is brain related.

    So i am not sure exactly what it means when "spirituality" is used in some way in dissassociation or disconnect from physical realitity.. I would say thats wierd and clearly confused and that should just understood to be that and and that individual or group is fairly clueless as to the topic "spirituality" or much of anything for that matter.
     
  10. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta and Spiritualist and Pantheist
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    Well just one of my objections to a physical-only explanation are Veridical Near Death Experiences where people return to normal consciousness with knowledge of things they could not have reasonably learned through normal channels.

    You can read and watch videos of a multitude of such stories on the internet.

    From the link I supplied here is a sample of what I mean by returning with knowledge not reasonably learned through normal channels:

    Example 1: An elderly woman had been blind since childhood. But, during her NDE, the woman had regained her sight and she was able to accurately describe the instruments and techniques used during the resuscitation her body. After the woman was revived, she reported the details to her doctor. She was able to tell her doctor who came in and out, what they said, what they wore, what they did, all of which was true. Her doctor then referred the woman to Moody who he knew was doing research at the time on NDEs.



    Example 2: In another instance a woman with a heart condition was dying at the same time that her sister was in a diabetic coma in another part of the same hospital. The subject reported having a conversation with her sister as both of them hovered near the ceiling watching the medical team work on her body below. When the woman awoke, she told the doctor that her sister had died while her own resuscitation was taking place. The doctor denied it, but when she insisted, he had a nurse check on it. The sister had, in fact, died during the time in question.

    Example 3: A dying girl left her body and into another room in the hospital where she found her older sister crying and saying:


    "Oh, Kathy, please don't die, please don't die."

    The older sister was quite baffled when, later, Kathy told her exactly where she had been and what she had been saying during this time.

    "After it was all over, the doctor told me that I had a really bad time, and I said, "Yeah, I know."



    He said, "Well, how do you know?"And I said, "I can tell you everything that happened."



    He didn't believe me, so I told him the whole story, from the time I stopped breathing until the time I was kind of coming around. He was really shocked to know that I knew everything that had happened. He didn't know quite what to say, but he came in several times to ask me different things about it.



    When I woke up after the accident, my father was there, and I didn't even want to know what sort of shape I was in, or how I was, or how the doctors thought I would be. All I wanted to talk about was the experience I had been through. I told my father who had dragged my body out of the building, and even what color clothes that person had on, and how they got me out, and even about all the conversation that had been going on in the area.



    And my father said, "Well, yes, these things were true."



    Yet, my body was physically out this whole time, and there was no way I could have seen or heard these things without being outside of my body.
     
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  11. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    It will take me a bit to watch it. I dont base my experiences and revelations on things I read. They are educational, like my OP; but, the things I believe and dont believe are things from my experiences especially having a brain condition where I would have to be really religious to correlate the weird experiences I had with anything spiritual. It doesnt devalue "spiritual" experiences. To each his own. But, Id be more interested if you had any NDE experiences and how did you personaly come to terms with that belief.
     
  12. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    @George-ananda

    I was reading one of the mini links in addition to the OP, and it mirroed this: "Using the scientific method, near-death experiences have been proven to be a real scientific phenomenon because they are reproducible.". Scientist, I read, replicated the theory of NDE by making rats have heart attacks to track if there is still brain activity (consciousness) happening even after the heart and blood has stop pumping and flowin to the brain. The brain stayed aware for about ten minutes before actual death. I wouldnt be surprised that within that ten minutes, people were aware. Then, when they were resuscitated they remember events that happened even though they werent able to respond. Which is interesting because not everyone experiences NDE in the same experiences with heart attacks. Though, scientists pin point that most who do have it had heart attacks or something similar.

    Your link presents NDE as a study trying to (like bibical claims) substantiate mystical experiences to a supernatural cause. Humans did this for eons. In my opinion, is almost like you guys dont trust your own experiences and need some sort of physical evidence and stats to back it up.

    "I don't have any idea whether there's life after death or not. I've been a follower of science all of my life, but I also have a Ph.D. in philosophy, and it really seems to me that the question of life after death is not yet ripe for scientific enquiry because it's not formulatable in a way that fits into the scientific method. I also think it's the most important question. If you think of the big questions of existence, this is the biggie."​

    The philosophical question of life and death has its own criteria for whether it is true or not. Scientists observe the natural reactions and interactions with the body in relation to those who say they have NDE. Thee do not invalidate the Truth (not fact) of these experiences because in both cases, they are theories. How did a christian say-thats why one has faith.

    1. Did you know some people with specific types of blindness can still see color? When I thought I was going blind, I started looking more into it as well as with my doctors. Id have to find the resouce.

    2. Interesting. I read that sometimes twins have a sense about each other. Parents to their children. My brother and I have it. We all have mysteries. (Which they are mysteries) and theories as explained above. There is nothing wrong with believing a theory to be true. Everyone has their own criteria for truth and fact.

    I cant go through all of them. Like I said in my OP, NDE, god, consciousness, spirits, etc doesnt sit right with me. If I believed everyones experience without having my own, Id go bunkers. There has to be some criteria to which we each individually derive our personal truth from a given inside or outside source. Blind faith can be taken for granted but this is just my opinion.
     
  13. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member

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    The problem with all of those kinds of reports is that they come after the fact and often third hand. There’s no way to be sure there isn’t missing information or relevant details to account for the apparent impossibility of the reported events, either unintentionally due to flawed memories of stressful situations, miscommunication or led reporting or in some cases intentionally spun by the people using these stories to promote their preferred beliefs.

    There are actual structured scientific experiments in progress looking in to this kind of thing, like the ones with abstract images on high shelves in operating theatres, with measures taken to avoid the problems of the anecdotal examples. I’m not aware of any positive results as of yet (and I’m sure it’d be widely reported it there were).

    The other issue is your implied assumption that there could only be “non-physical” explanations for these events. Just because we don’t (yet) have definitive explanations for them doesn’t say anything about whatever the real explanations are. Some extension of “physical” mechanisms we’re not yet aware of seems more likely that a whole new set of “spiritual” or “magical” mechanisms we’re not yet aware of.
     
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  14. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta and Spiritualist and Pantheist
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    Well, I am not claiming that this body of anecdotal veridical Near Death Experiences constitute perfect proof of the paranormal aspects of the experience. However I am claiming that the full body of these type cases, along with many other facts about these experiences, (such as why there are richer than life experiences at all when no higher brain functioning is occurring) make a materialistic explanation increasingly less likely to be the correct one.

    Conservatively speaking (and not saying any one experience can be taken as proof), I would say these veridical experiences very strongly suggest something dramatically important and not understood by current science is occurring.
    My position on that issue is that we are not speaking of anything 'magical'. I think there are planes of nature beyond the physical that can also be considered part of 'nature' and are involved in these types of experiences. I think things like astral bodies and souls are part of the natural world and exist in planes and dimensions beyond our familiar physical plane.
     
  15. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member

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    And you’re wrong. For a start, you’ve not established any fact (for example, definitive evidence of a complete lack of brain function for the entire relevant time) , only a series of claims and anecdotes. I refer you back to the actual scientific experiments in this field.

    You’re free to claim any “planes of nature” or “astral bodies” exist, but as long as you have no concrete hypotheses, let alone any evidence, for even the possibility of such things, they remain no better than claims for the existence of magic.
     
  16. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    I agree. Seems much ado about nothing.

    I remember fainting once. I fell off a truck, landed flat on my back on a rock in the middle of my spine. I passed out, and certainly some odd things happened mentally. Later, when trying to describe it as 'neat' to my mother, it was the first time i swore in front of her. In my enthusiasm to describe it, I sort of yelled, 'I'm telling you it was f ____ in' neat. We all had a good laugh about that.

    I think some people put a lot of credence or importance to such experiences just because they're so different from waking consciousness. Lots of stuff happens in our dreams too, but nobody seems to go quite so agog over that.

    So I see an NDE as similar to taking some powerful hallucinogen, or fasting for days to induce alternate states. There is attachment to it because its so 'off'. But really its no big deal.
     
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  17. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    I think I had two dreams where I confused it with reality until I got oriented.

    I think what triggers people into believing things it's how uncannily vivid and real such experiences can be and while you're in them, you're not even aware of your real self asleep , in a coma, ndes whatever.

    What I find really freaky as how we can split into two personas, each with their own reality.
     
  18. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta and Spiritualist and Pantheist
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    Well, I can see this discussion is headed where our other Near Death Experience discussions ended.
    However, I do claim a rather detailed hypothesis (from Vedic (Hindu) and western esoteric wisdom traditions) with strong supporting anecdotal evidence.

    But if your only interest is just in physical science, then you are free to ignore.
     
    #19 George-ananda, Oct 9, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2018
  19. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    The discussion isn't mean for debate. It's based on experiences and interaction with people and family to whom these type of nde experiences are less spiritual and more neurological theory and mystery.

    The best way to understand NDE is personal interpretation. Theories are just that. Its fine to see truth in another person's experiences but the OP isn't about who is right with good stats and convincing testimony. Spirituality is an individual experience where ideally one things for themselves and draw conclusions on internal sources. Hence the purpose of meditation.

    Outside source dependency sounds more abrahamic. I never agreed with it so it's all my opinion.
     
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