natural Pantheism vs classic Pantheism

[endlessvoid2018]

So what are the differences between natural/scientific Pantheism and classical Pantheism?

Natural pantheism - "Natural pantheists don’t believe in any God, though they do worship the universe as if it was one."

Classical pantheism - "the doctrine that the universe conceived of as a whole is God and, conversely, that there is no God but the combined substance, forces, and laws that are manifested in the existing universe."

So... slight differences there?

 

[vulcanlogician]

Very slight differences. "Splitting hairs" some might say.

But I'm not opposed to splitting hairs on intellectual matters. Is there an important difference between the two concepts to you, OP? If so, what is it?

 

[Quintessence]

In practice, honestly not much.

Both affirm the inherent sacredness and value of the universe and everything in it. One is comfortable using words like "gods" to express that sacredness and that relationship to that-which-is-greater. The other isn't.

The why's of that are complicated, but more or less boil down to biases in what "god" as a term means in Western culture. The belief that gods must be supernatural, for example, is widespread in Western culture because of the influence of classical monotheism which put a wedge between nature and gods (a break from historical polytheisms and indigenous traditions).

At the end of the day, someone who understands gods-as-nature will do ritual in much the same way whether or not they use words like "gods" to label things. Ritual at Winter Solstice is ritual at Winter Solstice regardless of what one "believes" about Sun and Seasons.

 

[metis]

I don't know what "worshipping the universe" would accomplish? I'd rather meditate on Nature, which was another name for God with Spinoza.

 

[endlessvoid2018]

Very slight differences. "Splitting hairs" some might say.

But I'm not opposed to splitting hairs on intellectual matters. Is there an important difference between the two concepts to you, OP? If so, what is it?

Not entirely sure. I like the concepts of Pantheism, but don't know if I necessarily believe in anything called "God." I am trying to see if I fit in somewhere within Pantheism. I have a strong belief of a universal spiritual force beyond our comprehension. I don't think I would call this God though. I was wondering if it was somewhere along the lines of natural Pantheism.

 

[metis]

Not entirely sure. I like the concepts of Pantheism, but don't know if I necessarily believe in anything called "God." I am trying to see if I fit in somewhere within Pantheism. I have a strong belief of a universal spiritual force beyond our comprehension. I don't think I would call this God though. I was wondering if it was somewhere along the lines of natural Pantheism.

My former signature statement, which I still believe, ran like this: Whatever caused this universe/multiverse I'll call "God" and pretty much just leave it at that.

How's that, iyo?

 

[endlessvoid2018]

That sounds a bit like Deism lol

 

[Quintessence]

Not entirely sure. I like the concepts of Pantheism, but don't know if I necessarily believe in anything called "God." I am trying to see if I fit in somewhere within Pantheism. I have a strong belief of a universal spiritual force beyond our comprehension. I don't think I would call this God though. I was wondering if it was somewhere along the lines of natural Pantheism.

It's been called "god(s)" (among other culturally analogous terms) throughout human history. The root of all theism is the experience of or knowledge of a that-which-is-greater, often so much greater-than-human it cannot ever be fully understood. From there teachings differ as experiences of the numinous differ. What is it about the term "god" that is troubling to apply to these experiences? Such has been done by so many peoples throughout history. Forget what anyone else tells you about what "god(s)" are - you get to decide that for yourself. Whether or not you put a word like "god(s)" to the numinous greater-than-human doesn't really matter at the end of the day, IMHO.

 

[endlessvoid2018]

My given issue with the term "God," is it reminds me too much of standard, revealed religions such as Christianity and Islam. But, it is what it is I suppose. That's why I generally call things as such a "higher universal spiritual force," or "essence."

 

[metis]

That sounds a bit like Deism lol

Ya, I can agree with that. My main mentor along this line is Baruch Spinoza, who usually is considered to be a pantheist.

 

[Quintessence]

My given issue with the term "God," is it reminds me too much of standard, revealed religions such as Christianity and Islam. But, it is what it is I suppose. That's why I generally call things as such a "higher universal spiritual force," or "essence."

Yes, I had that too - it's understandable. It's almost an inevitable product of being in a culture where the only theology discussed is that taught by Abrahamic religions. It is so deeply embedded in the culture here that I've noticed most folks are actually incapable of processing other theologies (I was there once myself). You really do have to more or less deprogram yourself. Think critically, question assumptions, realize that everything you were taught about god isn't what god is in all theological paradigms.

In most respects, pantheism - which is a fairly modern, Western term - is a return to "original theism" by which I mean pre-Abrahamic polytheistic, indigenous, and animistic beliefs that overwhelmingly viewed gods-as/in/are-nature rather than "supernaturally" above or transcending or separate from nature.

 

[vulcanlogician]

Not entirely sure. I like the concepts of Pantheism, but don't know if I necessarily believe in anything called "God." I am trying to see if I fit in somewhere within Pantheism. I have a strong belief of a universal spiritual force beyond our comprehension. I don't think I would call this God though. I was wondering if it was somewhere along the lines of natural Pantheism.

Yes. So on a very well-established basis of modern science, you conclude that "nature" obviously exists, and that "God" has not been demonstrated to exist. I think there is a route to pantheism that doesn't require one's believing in any concept as "God."

There are other things that science doesn't care to comment on, like concepts of "holiness" or "sacredness." An atheistic pantheist could recognize these as attributes of nature. She might, for instance, think that the Milky Way Galaxy is holy. The ecstatic feelings of the theist when they contemplate God are also present in our pantheist when she contemplates the Milky Way. The jury is still out on whether that makes her a "theist" or not, but I don't see anything in her worldview that conflicts with pantheism.

 

[endlessvoid2018]

I don't think that this would make a pantheist an actual theist. It seems in a lot of cases,
pantheists just use the name of god as another name for the universe. I do like a lot
of the concepts of pantheism honestly. I would have to say, as someone who identifies
with being agnostic/atheist more than anything, pantheism is sort of the one philosophy
and belief system that kind of makes any sense to me. I sometimes have the view
like I mentioned earlier in the possibility that god doesn't exist in a material form in the
typical sense in most religions, but that the universe or the cosmos could be divine
like god, and we are all interconnected to some larger, universal spiritual force.
Everything that is of nature and that is alive. I don't think the desk I am sitting at right now
is considered divine or of god. lol.

However, in a lot of cases, I don't think that would necessarily be considered pantheism,
but rather a concept of my own belief or a version of Ietsism.
Many argue that pantheism is essentially just sexed up atheism.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I don't think that this would make a pantheist an actual theist. It seems in a lot of cases,
pantheists just use the name of god as another name for the universe. I do like a lot
of the concepts of pantheism honestly. I would have to say, as someone who identifies
with being agnostic/atheist more than anything, pantheism is sort of the one philosophy
and belief system that kind of makes any sense to me. I sometimes have the view
like I mentioned earlier in the possibility that god doesn't exist in a material form in the
typical sense in most religions, but that the universe or the cosmos could be divine
like god, and we are all interconnected to some larger, universal spiritual force.
Everything that is of nature and that is alive. I don't think the desk I am sitting at right now
is considered divine or of god. lol.

However, in a lot of cases, I don't think that would necessarily be considered pantheism,
but rather a concept of my own belief or a version of Ietsism.
Many argue that pantheism is essentially just sexed up atheism.

If you feel 'pantheism' is a fitting term for your beliefs and 'pantheist' is a fitting term for yourself, then that's what's most important. The theological concept of pantheism isn't as strict as, say, Catholicism, Buddhism, etc. Terms like 'pantheism' seem to be more about the benefit in one's spiritual growth path than about a laid out description of personal beliefs, in my opinion.

To me, I don't understand why someone would want to consider themselves a pantheist if they don't believe in a literal sanctity of the universe rather than something that 'could be divine' or 'like god'. But of course, I'm not one to judge or even know how strongly someone might feel about these statements just because of the way they worded them.

I also don't believe the desk that you are sitting at right now is considered divine or God, but the totality of existence as a system I have no doubt in my mind is divine and alive.

 

[endlessvoid2018]

I'm not entirely sure. Honestly, I would call fitting my beliefs under a broad category of say "non-theist."
According to Wikipedia, on about the term nontheist, or non-theist has been used in several ways. "It has been used as an umbrella term for summarizing various distinct and even mutually exclusive positions, such as agnosticism, ignosticism, ietsism, skepticism, pantheism, pandeism, transtheism, atheism, (strong or positive, implicit or explicit), and apatheism."