My God, Why Have Thou Forsaken Me ?

[angellous_evangellous]

Apparently, we're danged if we do...

If this was his last statement, It makes a big argument for the basis of Christian scriptures and disproves Jesus to be what the bible claims. It shows that Christ was not in on the whole sacrifice for mankind story or else such a question would be ludicrous.

And danged if we don't...

If it wasn't his last statement. Then it is one more fallacy from the bible. Making it even less accurate or believable. Kind of like painting yourself into a corner.

Fortunately, I have not seen anyone put forth such a hopelessly thoughtless interpretation of this particular passage.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Has no one thought to point out that there are differing versions of the last words of Jesus?

 

[michel]

Has no one thought to point out that there are differing versions of the last words of Jesus?

As in:- http://singoafrica.blogspot.com/2006/04/last-words-of-jesus.html ?
The Last Words of Jesus



The following are the last seven words (phrases) that Jesus said during his Crucifixion:

Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do (Luke 23:24)
Woman, behold your son...Behold your mother! (John 19:26-27)
I thirst (John 19:28).
This day you will be with me in Paradise (Luke 23:43)
My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me? (Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34)
It is finished (John 19:30)
Father, into Your hands, I commend My spirit (Luke 23:46)

I must admit that this last moment for Jesus is one that I cannot understand fully; is there some authoritative literature to explain it to someone like me ?

 

[SoyLeche]

From James E. Talmage's "Jesus the Christ":

At the ninth hour, or about three in the afternoon, a loud voice, surpassing the most anguished cry of physical suffering issued from the central cross, rending the dreadful darknes. It was the voice of the Christ: "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, My God, why has thou forsaken me?" What mind of man can fatom the significance of that awful cry? It seems, that in addition to the fearful suffering incident to crucifixtion, the agony of Gethsemane had recurred, intensified beyond human power to endure. In that bitterest hour the dying Christ was alone, alone in most terrible reality. That the supreme sacrifice of the Son might be consummated in all its fulness, the Father seems to have withdrawn the support of His immediate Presence, leaving the Savior of men the glory of complete victory over the forces of sin and death.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

As in:- http://singoafrica.blogspot.com/2006/04/last-words-of-jesus.html ?
The Last Words of Jesus



The following are the last seven words (phrases) that Jesus said during his Crucifixion:

Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do (Luke 23:24)
Woman, behold your son...Behold your mother! (John 19:26-27)
I thirst (John 19:28).
This day you will be with me in Paradise (Luke 23:43)
My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me? (Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34)
It is finished (John 19:30)
Father, into Your hands, I commend My spirit (Luke 23:46)

I must admit that this last moment for Jesus is one that I cannot understand fully; is there some authoritative literature to explain it to someone like me ?

That depends on how you define "authoritative." Very much has been written on it... I will keep an eye out for this when I am in the library this week and I'll direct you to what I think is the best.

My interpretative method is simply this:

The Gospels were written to a specific faith community - the earliest Christian churches. The actions and teachings of Jesus outside of Q (the sayings that are shared by Matt, Mark, and Luke) were adapted from the memories of the apostles or fabricated to address specific needs in that community.

So each different last saying was used by the Chrisitan bishop of a certain community to address a need - be it to strengthen the position of the church (eg, the Johannine community entrusted with the protection of the mother of Jesus), a theological lesson that matches the confession of the community (the sayings in Luke), or correct theological heresies that may have been introduced by foreign influence (like the Gnostics/Marcionites).

 

[michel]

I suddenly remembered that I had seen a thread on this before; I have merged it.....

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Matthew 27:46, "'ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHITHANI?' that is, `MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAST THOU FORSAKEN ME?'" In verse 50 we are told that Jesus cried out again and died. We are not told what was said or if it was merely a cry of pain.

Mark 15:34, "'ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHANI?' which is translated, `My God, My God, Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me?'" In verse 37 we are told the same thing as above in verse 50.

Luke 23: 46, "And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, `FATHER, INTO THY HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.' And having said this, He breathed His last."

John 19: 30, "When Jesus therefore had received sour wine, He said, `It is finished!' And He bowed His head, and gave up His spirit.

It can be noted here that of the four last words of Jesus recorded above, there are three contradictory versions. Matthew and Mark are in somewhat agreement, although Matthew uses the word ELI and Mark ELOI; since Jesus' last words were in a single language, it appears suspicious that two different words are used. Luke creates more problems because he records different last words for Jesus. And Luke (or whoever wrote the gospel that goes by that name – none of the gospel writers identified themselves in their works) clearly states in the first four verses of his gospel to be writing an accurate account because he does not like the other accounts already written. If he is writing an accurate account, than any variation from his account is by definition in error.

There is no difference between ELI and ELOI. EL is God and I or OI is the first person possessive... "My God." It's exactly the same thing, just alternative spelling.

 

[Katzpur]

Leave it to you Kat, I had forgotten that...Actually made me get my BIG(1 1/2 ft by 5 inches) bible out and look it up...Its the only one I have left, only due to the fact that it belonged to a close loved one that died. Anyway, you are correct. I wonder which one of the stories is correct. I really don't want to start researching the bible again...:faint: ...

Why is there a difference in your opinion?

I don't know. I guess there wouldn't be much of a point in the New Testament including four gospel accounts of Jesus' life and ministry if they were all identical. I'm kind of inclinced to go with Luke in this case, just because His last words in this version seem to make a bit more sense to me.

 

[joeboonda]

Jesus, dying on the cross took on all the sin of all the world for all time. Jesus suffered the full wrath of a holy, righteous God poured out on Him, so He would not have to pour it out on us. God had to 'turn his back' so to say on His Son whom He loved, because "He who knew no sin became sin for us..." The penalty or wages of sin is death, so Christ died, paying a debt we could not pay.

Jesus who is infinite (He is God), only had to suffer a finite amount of time for our sins, while we, being finite would have to suffer eternally for our sins. (the wages of sin is death) And, Jesus, being sinnless did not have to suffer eternally, death and hell and the grave having no power over Him, thus He rose again the third day, halleluiah.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Jesus who is infinite (He is God), only had to suffer a finite amount of time for our sins, while we, being finite would have to suffer eternally for our sins. (the wages of sin is death) And, Jesus, being sinnless did not have to suffer eternally, death and hell and the grave having no power over Him, thus He rose again the third day, halleluiah.

How can a finite being suffer eternally?

 

[SoyLeche]

How can a finite being suffer eternally?

Can't something be finite in one dimension and infinite in another??? A line can have a finite width but an infinite length, for example.

I don't know that that has anyting to do with this though

 

[PetShopBoy88]

Has no one thought to point out that there are differing versions of the last words of Jesus?

Yes, that was pointed out by (I think) Katzpur earlier in this thread.

 

[joeboonda]

Because God is infinitely Holy, even the smallest sin is infinitely offensive to Him. As a result an infinite payment must be made for the sins of each and every person. Now there are two ways by which an infinite payment can be offered: a finite person could suffer God's wrath for an infinite period of time, or an infinite person sould suffer God's wrath for a finite period of time. Both yield an infinte payment for sin.
1. Man, who is finite, would therefore have to suffer God's wrath for infinity if he were to pay for his own sins. That is why hell is etenal.
2. Jesus Christ, the infinte God in human form would only have to suffer God's wrath a finite amount of time to provide an infinte payment for sin. Since He is God, the suffering He endured on the cross was a sacrifice of infinite value. Therefore, His death made available the infinite payment necessary to pay for the sins of all men throughout all ages.

An infinite payment must be made for every man's sins. God allows each person to decide which payment plan he preferss...Jesus Christ, or eternity in Hell. (from The Gospel by Ron Shea, p. 12)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


As to the question about

how can a finnite being can suffer eternally?,

, I believe the scripture indicates that eternal, or everlasting punishment is forever. An example, in Revelation, the Beast (Antichrist) and the False Prophet are thrown into the Lake of Fire, 1,000 years later Satan is, too, and it says where the Beast and the False Prophet ARE, and they are tormented night and day, forever and ever...

1. Revelation 19:20
   And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
   Revelation 20:10
   And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
2. Revelation 21:8
   But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
   [*]Revelation 20:14
   Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
   If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
   [*]Matthew 25:46
   And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
   [*]Matthew 25:41
   Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
   
   [*]We are all going to spend eternity somewhere, I do not believe in the annihilation of the wicked. The rich man who went to hell is still there along with all the others, and they will face the final White Throne Judgement and be cast into the lake of fire. Note that Lazarus could remember his life, he was in torment in the flame, he was thirsty...and he was alive, in what form of body we do not know, but it will last forever. Jesus also said that it would be more tolerable at the judgement for some than others, signifying different levels of punishment, just as there will be different levels of rank, privelege, and reward for believers in eternity.
   
   
   

 

[autonomous1one1]

.......
I must admit that this last moment for Jesus is one that I cannot understand fully; is there some authoritative literature to explain it to someone like me ?

Greetings Michel. Although it does not come from any 'authoritative literature' source that I know of, I wish to offer a different perspective on the last words. In the view of many, Jesus as Christ was fully human and fully God, as is my view. This is a human in whom union with God is realized; God-human; what I term the New Being for further discussion. The New Being knows the finite identity of a human and the infinite identity of God simultaneously and can communicate from either perspective. Jesus as the New Being was transparent to God through the Being that he was.

Assuming the words 'My God, My God, why have you forsaken me' were said on the cross, they are remarkable in two respects. First, they come from the human perspective of the New Being and prove the fully human identity. This, to me, is extremely important because it means the New Being is applicable for us humans also. Second, the words are remarkable because they show Jesus unity with God at the end, under conditions of severe despair, whether they be quotes from a psalm or chosen words to God.

At least my two points show that I can count in offering my two cents.
a1

 

[XAAX]

His last words should have been, "Always look on the bright side of life.."

A truly great movie that every christian should watch...maybe help with their enlightenment...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1loyjm4SOa0

 

[tumbleweed41]

Quoting "Reveled Revelation" as truth in a Deist thread is like performing a magic show in front of a skilled illusionist. Entertaining, but we know how the trick was done.