1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

My God, Why Have Thou Forsaken Me ?

Discussion in 'Deism DIR' started by DrM, Nov 23, 2004.

  1. DrM

    DrM Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2004
    Messages:
    111
    Ratings:
    +16
    (or Psalm 22 or Catch 22)

    For me to believe it is important for me to understand. . . . .The following is meant to be a realistic look at what Christians believe, mostly as the foundation of their system of belief. It is not meant to be negative or positive but a look at the scripture's words as originally written. . . . . . .Guess it is written more for me than anyone else to think through a position of acceptable belief.


    The last words of Jesus on the cross as recorded in the gospels create great difficulty for the Christian. The Christian facing the problem of Jesus' last words has only three alternatives open to him or her in how to respond. The Christian may ignore the issue and bury his or her head in the sand; the Christian may create an apologetic to try and make the problem go away; or the Christian may admit the problem exists at the cost of giving up the doctrine of Biblical Inerrancy. Few Christians have the moral courage for the latter.

    Matthew 27:46, "'ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHITHANI?' that is, `MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAST THOU FORSAKEN ME?'" In verse 50 we are told that Jesus cried out again and died. We are not told what was said or if it was merely a cry of pain.

    Mark 15:34, "'ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHANI?' which is translated, `My God, My God, Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me?'" In verse 37 we are told the same thing as above in verse 50.

    Luke 23: 46, "And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, `FATHER, INTO THY HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.' And having said this, He breathed His last."

    John 19: 30, "When Jesus therefore had received sour wine, He said, `It is finished!' And He bowed His head, and gave up His spirit.

    It can be noted here that of the four last words of Jesus recorded above, there are three contradictory versions. Matthew and Mark are in somewhat agreement, although Matthew uses the word ELI and Mark ELOI; since Jesus' last words were in a single language, it appears suspicious that two different words are used. Luke creates more problems because he records different last words for Jesus. And Luke (or whoever wrote the gospel that goes by that name – none of the gospel writers identified themselves in their works) clearly states in the first four verses of his gospel to be writing an accurate account because he does not like the other accounts already written.
    If he is writing an accurate account, than any variation from his account is by definition in error. John creates the most problem because he states he was a physical eyewitness to the events and was himself at the foot of the cross with the women. Even if one claims that the last cry mentioned, but not recorded, in Matthew 27:50 and Mark 15:37 are in fact the words recorded by Luke and John, the problem remains in that both Luke and John have conflicting last sentences leaving Jesus' mouth immediately before dying. Jesus may have said what Luke ascribes to him, or what John ascribes to him; but Jesus could not have had two different last sentences escape his mouth at the same moment in time. In addition, if the writers took the time to record what they regarded as important, than why is there no mention of what exactly the last cry of Jesus was before dying in Matthew and Mark? And if what Matthew and Mark wrote was so important, than how did it happen that the writers of Luke and John left these words out? How can Luke record an accurate account and leave out such an important detail? How can John physically be there and take no notice of Jesus crying out that God had forsaken him? The level of contradiction here is astounding.

    The last recorded words of Jesus according to Matthew and Mark were, "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" This sentence destroys the whole concept that Jesus was a prophet, much less the Messiah, and even less God incarnate on earth. A person cannot forsake him or herself, anymore than a God can forsaken itself. Jesus according to Christian assertion was the Messiah of Jewish scripture. Christians ignore the fact that the Messiah of Jewish scripture is not God, does not die for sins, is not forsaken by God, does not believe he is forsaken at any point in his life; the real Messianic prophecies have the Messiah keeping the Law, being confident, and living a life of prosperity. He is a warrior king who comes once and fulfills every single prophecy about driving the Gentiles out and bringing peace to Israel and Judah.

    In light of this problem one has to either admit the fact that Jesus does not measure up, or invent an apologetic in order to salvage his faith in Jesus. The apologetic of choice is to claim that when Jesus cried out, "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me," he was merely quoting Psalm 22. This apologetic is paper-thin and baseless. It is such a poor apologetic that is raises more questions than it answers. It begs several questions that have yet to be addressed: 1) Why would Jesus quote this particular scripture? 2) Why would Jesus, a Jew, quote something that in its proper context has nothing to do with the Messiah? 3) How do we know Jesus was quoting scripture and not merely stating how he felt? After all, how many people in history have felt forsaken by their particular gods? It would be absurd to assume that they would all be quoting Psalm 22 and not really expressing their own thoughts. The believer may consider such questions to be impious, but why is that? Truth can handle questions; as Nietzsche pointed out in his Antichrist: truth is proven by skepticism.

    If one assumes Jesus was quoting Psalm 22, then one must concede that Psalm 22 is Messianic in nature. If Psalm 22 is Messianic, then every single verse and word in it has to apply to the Messiah because it is about the Messiah. If Jesus is God incarnate, as Christians maintain, then every verse and word in Psalm 22 applies to God. Yet, if Psalm 22 is read correctly in its proper context, there are a number of issues that destroy the Christian assertion about it referring to Jesus. The subject of the work is not God but the author. To grasp the extent of the weakness of the apologetic that Jesus was quoting Psalm 22, one need only read each verse and ask the question: Does this sound like something God or the Messiah would say about himself? Do these verses speak of God incarnate?

    Here as some problem verses ignored by Christians: Verse 1: The apologetic assumes that Jesus quoted a half verse out of a two verse sentence. What is ignored is, "Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning." Does this sound like something either God or the Messiah would say?

    Verse 2: The author claims that he cries out to God who does not answer. Does this sound like something either God or the Messiah would say?

    Verse 6: The author says "I am a worm, and not a man." Does this sound like something either God or the Messiah would say about himself?

    Verse 10: The author says that God has been his God from his "mother's womb." Does this sound like something God would say about himself?

    Verse 11: The author calls on God not to be far from him. Does this sound like something either God or the Messiah would say?

    Verse 15: The author says that God has laid him "in the dust of death." Does this sound like something God would say?

    Verse 20: The author wants God to deliver him from the sword. Does this sound like something God would say?

    A more detailed examination of Psalm 22 shows that the true context of this work is not Messianic in nature; it is not a prophecy at all. It is merely a Psalm about hope. In Jewish scripture, scripture is classified in four categories according to degree in inspiration: The Torah (first five books of the Bible), The Major Prophets, The Minor Prophets, and the Writings. The fourth category contains works designed to be teaching tools for students. Psalms is classified among the fourth category. Works like the Talmud would in a sense be of the fifth category.

    The conclusion of all this is that Jesus was not quoting Psalm 22, and even if he was, the subject of Psalm 22 is not the Messiah, much less God. The contextual subject of Psalm 22 is its very human author writing long before Jesus ever came on the scene who is trying to reassure himself that God actually cares about Israel and the author. To believe otherwise is to blaspheme the very idea of God. God is not a worm; but the author of Psalm 22 clearly states, "I am a worm, and not a man."

    Deism is a great belief without the stress of having to justify unjustifiable writings.







     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    9,497
    Ratings:
    +927
    His last words should have been, "Always look on the bright side of life.."
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. DrM

    DrM Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2004
    Messages:
    111
    Ratings:
    +16
    I like that. . . . .And I love the song!!
     
  4. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    1,211
    Ratings:
    +132
  5. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2004
    Messages:
    1,313
    Ratings:
    +61
    sorry, but just because a verse or more refers to the messsiah, does not by any means mean that the entire chapter must, for their were not verse and chapter dividers in the original manuscripts anyway.strawman anyone?consider 2sam7:13-16?

    as for the entire accusation i suggest you would be even less stressed if you didn't concern yourself with things you have an intention of not believing

    an answer that may satisfy you
    http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/html/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=156

    i'm not going to argue this anymore, but i hope my contribution is appreciated.
     
  6. DrM

    DrM Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2004
    Messages:
    111
    Ratings:
    +16
    Apparently you missed the first par. I wrote in this thread. Therefore I will print it again.

    Thank you for taking the time to read this thread. Your comments were a bit caustic and I don't know why. I don't understand the "strawman" comment. Strawman, in my opinion, is an argument presented as a fact which has no substance and distracts from the focus of the presentation. After having "sufferred through various original writings, I am familiar with the structure and their lack of verses. I don't see how this affects the questions I have shared.

    I am interested in your opinion(s) and observations on the position I offerred.

    Thanks!
     
  7. huajiro

    huajiro Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2004
    Messages:
    1,625
    Ratings:
    +115
    If I were him, I would have said "get me outta here!!!"
     
  8. true blood

    true blood Active Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    848
    Ratings:
    +36
    The fact that there are foreign words left in this particular part of scripture strongly suggests that the "translators" were not a hundred percent sure on the "true" meaning. Honestly, what he said may never be known... The people standing around him on the cross were not sure what he said. Some thought he called for Elijah. Others had their own ideas. Unto this day there exists many "ideas" as to what he said and ninty-nine percent are contradictory thus cannot be "true". A realistic view from a true christian should recognize the error of theology and have a belief that Jesus' final words would be in harmony with the scripture as a whole. The only clue to the actual meaning is within the foreign words and any truth to be found is by operating on the principles of right believing. Like a belief that your search for truth will be in harmony of Scripture. Too often biblical research is done in unbelief yielding errors. Certainly not truth.
     
  9. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    1,211
    Ratings:
    +132
    I believe tht Jesus said all of those things on the cross, But I believe He simply said them at different times. But I believe the absolute, final words of Jesus while still on the cross were "It is finished."
     
  10. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    9,497
    Ratings:
    +927
    I just can't help but think of that South Park episode when they put Cartmen up on a cross and he was all like "Hey you guys get me down for heeya!!"
     
  11. Omer

    Omer Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2005
    Messages:
    38
    Ratings:
    +4
    Now im an open-minded person and i believe that the person on the cross would have said all of the above in panic, and the people could have had difficulty in following his words correctly while he wasnt in any way trying to make his words to be heard, because he was Judah who was on the cross, given the shape of Jesus so much as that even Saint Mary may have believed that it was his son, they all might have wept thinking it was Jesus Christ.

    and while all these were occuring, God Allmighty had already raised Jesus to heaven, for God had accepted his prayer and didnt let his beloved prophet suffer in the hands of those people.
    Because Jesus had said when he was born in front of the public: "Verily God is my Lord and your Lord, then worship Him. This is the straight way." Thats what i believe in and i think this is all logical and easy to grasp. More comments are appreciated!:)
     
  12. xander-

    xander- Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2004
    Messages:
    107
    Ratings:
    +7
    I love 'Life of Brian' too.. :) *Whistle whistle*
    -Xander
     
  13. blood-lord14

    blood-lord14 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2005
    Messages:
    136
    Ratings:
    +1
    jesus was a fellow villager...why the crusifixion..i should put redemption on the soul who is called the executioner
     
  14. Solon

    Solon Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Messages:
    613
    Ratings:
    +40
    He really said, and I quote: " Is OK, I'm just hanging out wit ma hommies "
     
  15. JesusIsTheWay

    JesusIsTheWay Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2005
    Messages:
    73
    Ratings:
    +5
    I'll attempt to answer this...

    Let's start with the Gospel of Matthew:
    Now from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour. About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" And some of those who were standing there, when they heard it, began saying, "This man is calling for Elijah." Immediately one of them ran, and taking a sponge, he filled it with sour wine and put it on a reed, and gave Him a drink. But the rest of them said, "Let us see whether Elijah will come to save Him." And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His Spirit. And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. (Matthew 27:45-51)
    Jesus had to bear our sins, and therefore had to be temporarly separated from the Father. This is why He cried "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" He felt God turn His back on Him, because that is what had to happen. He felt abandoned. He felt emotions.
    Now lets turn to the Gospel of Mark:
    When the sixth hour came, darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour. At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" When some of the bystanders heard it, they began saying, "Behold, He is calling for Elijah." Someone ran and filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on a reed, and gave Him a drink, saying, "Let us see whether Elijah will come to take Him down." And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed His last. And the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. (Mark 15:33-38)
    Very simply, Jesus originally said "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" in a mix of Aramaic and Hebrew. Eli is one Hebrew word for God and Eloi is a Greek word for God (from my research. I'll list sources if asked). Matthew gave the Aramaic since He was writing to Hebrews and Mark gave the Greek since He was writing to Greeks. (Once again, my understanding).
    So far, Matthew and Mark are in agreement, lets see what Luke has to say...
    It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour, because the sun was obscured; and the veil of the temple was torn in two. And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commit My Spirit." Having said this, He breathed His last. (Luke 23:44-46)
    Here, we find out what Jesus cried out. And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commit My Spirit." So far, so good.
    Now in the Gospel of John...
    After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, to fulfill the Scripture, said, "I am thirsty." A jar full of sour wine was standing there; so they put a sponge full of the sour wine upon a branch of hyssop and brought it up to His mouth. Therefore when Jesus had recieved the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His Spirit. (John 19:28-30)
    Okay, from the appearance of things, Luke and John seem to condrict one another. Let's find out if they do or don't. In the Greek Luke's phrase "Father, into your hands I commit My Spirit" could be literaly translated as, "Father, I give you charge (or commit) of my spirit." Which means that Jesus gave God full charge of His spirit. This does not mean He did not do that before, it was simply a "rededication," if you will, to the Father's will for Him. Then he "breathed out, expired, died." (breathed His last). John's phrase "And He bowed His head and gave up His Spirit" is similar. Gave up His spirit literally means "Gives His spirit up voluntarily," so he gave, committed, His spirt to God. In other words, the words Luke recorded would be be what He said in place of John's "And He bowed His head and gave up His Spirit." So where would "It is finished!" be? If you look carefully you'll see that Jesus said this right after He received the wine, Someone ran and filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on a reed, and gave Him a drink, saying, "Let us see whether Elijah will come to take Him down." And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed His last. / Therefore when Jesus had recieved the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" The Gospels don't always record the exact same things. What I mean by that is each Gospel usually gives us a little bit more detail about a single event. So, to say they condrict each other in this place is untrue. It all comes out with some study and searching the Scriptures. I'll give a full account of what happened from each of the four Gospel writers accounts...
    When the sixth hour came, darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour. At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" When some of the bystanders heard it, they began saying, "Behold, He is calling for Elijah."After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, to fulfill the Scripture, said, "I am thirsty." A jar full of sour wine was standing there; so they put a sponge full of the sour wine upon a branch of hyssop and brought it up to His mouth saying, "Let us see whether Elijah will come to take Him down." Therefore when Jesus had recieved the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commit My Spirit." And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.
    I hope this was some help.
    - David -
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. jeffrey

    jeffrey †ßig Dog†

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2005
    Messages:
    5,366
    Ratings:
    +1,008
    Seeing that John was the only one that was there, I tend to believe his words more the the others. They, as the post above me states, all convey the same thought, but like I stated, as far as the actual words, I mean towards John.
     
  17. Nehustan

    Nehustan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2005
    Messages:
    2,208
    Ratings:
    +238
    ...one last glass of wine and a bread roll before you close bartender....actually make that a carafe and a loaf, I'm with friends.​

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Mike182

    Mike182 Flaming Queer

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2005
    Messages:
    13,383
    Ratings:
    +1,389
    i associate more with luke's version - in manus tuas commendo spiritum meum :D

    simple answer, we have no way of knowing, but i think jesus recognised the significance of what he was doing, he recognised that God was with him, from the traitors kiss to the sword - he knew god had not forsaken him, and so to me, his last words would have resembled something like luke recorded - but thats just my oppinion :D not that it counts for much
     
  19. Mike182

    Mike182 Flaming Queer

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2005
    Messages:
    13,383
    Ratings:
    +1,389
    hahahaha, do you know nothing, it was "what if God was one of us" :sarcastic
     
  20. Solon

    Solon Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Messages:
    613
    Ratings:
    +40
    Just a slob like one of us.....

    S
     
Loading...