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Must We be Certain of Knowing Something Before We Can Legitimately Say We 'Know' Something?

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
BACKGROUND:
For over 2,000 years, the western philosophical tradition has defined 'knowledge' as "justified true belief".
That is, to say you know X is the case (as opposed to you merely believe X is the case), you must first believe X is the case; next, your belief that X is the case must be true; and last, you must be justified in believing X is the case is true.
Put differently, a belief is not knowledge. Not even a true belief is knowledge. Only a true belief in which you are warranted or justified to believe it is true is knowledge.
Mere belief is not knowledge because a belief can be false. Example: I believe rabbits eat whales. Obviously, a false belief.
Mere true belief is not knowledge because if you believe something is true without any good reason to believe it is true, then you are in effect guessing. But is guessing knowledge? Example: Suppose I guess the correct answer to a math problem on a test. Can I be said to have known the answer even though I had no reason, justification, warrant, or cause to believe my guess was the correct one? The answer is, I cannot say I knew the answer without redefining the meaning of 'know'.
Only if I have a true belief that is justified can I say my true belief is knowledge.​
And with all of that in mind, now the question...
QUESTION:
Must we be absolutely certain that a true belief is justified before we can legitimately call our true belief 'knowledge'?
Put differently, are there cases in which we can say we know something based on some kind of evidence or reasoning that does not leave us absolutely certain of knowing something? Such as, the testimony of witnesses in a trial, or the results of a scientifically conducted experiment, or the 'evidence of our own eyes', etc.?
IMPLICATIONS:
If we must be absolutely certain that a true belief is justified before calling it 'knowledge' then anything we are not absolutely certain of cannot be claimed to be known. For instance, if we are not absolutely certain that god exists, we cannot say that we know god exists. If we are not absolutely certain there is an objective reality apart from our own or any mind, then we cannot say we know objective reality exists. Etc. etc. etc.
On the other hand, if we need not be absolutely certain that a true belief is justified before calling it 'knowledge' then it is at least in principle possible that we can say we know god exists even though we are not absolutely certain god exists. Or -- on the flip side -- it is at least in principle possible that we can say we know god does NOT exist even though we are not absolutely certain god does not exist. Etc. etc. etc.
Let the joyful pettifoggery commence immediately!

I respectfully suggest that it is time to set ego aside, let go of what I, the individual, knows, and instead focus on what we, the collective, know. I as an individual am limited by the biological hardware I was born with, which in turn can be limited by injury, pathology, and instinctual behaviors. Additionally, what I know as an individual is heavily biased and constrained by socialization and many other psychological factors. Therefore, instead of focusing our attention on the limited and constrained observations of one individual, we look at all the billions of observations of billions of individuals throughout history. By comparing and analyzing these many observations, we are able to gauge the strength and value of shared observations. This is how we know what we know. It does not completely solve the issues that constrain the individual observer, but it does mitigate them. To what extent it helps to overcome our individual limitations and provide a true picture of reality, only time will tell.

So to the question at hand “Must we be absolutely certain that a true belief is justified before we can legitimately call our true belief 'knowledge'?”, it is clear that any justification for a personally held belief needs to be supported by our collective knowledge to be of any value, and as alluded to in other posts, even then we cannot be 100% sure that we are collectively “getting it right”. That is why we must constantly reevaluate and reanalyze what we know, especially in light of new and corroborated observation.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
If certainty is a belief (or attitude), then absolute certainty is entirely possible. At issue is whether or not it's warranted.
As a "belief or attitude", anything can be anything. It's an 'indefinite' definition that communicates nothing.
Try to understand the relationship between (and the difference between) definition and categorization. And then, while pondering why it "communicates nothing" to you, acknowledge that the problem may have something to do with your understanding.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Whether we like it or not, lots of folks use 'I know' in describing belief. We aren't obliged to believe them. Others much prefer 'I believe'. In that case, we can believe that they believe, but again we're not obligated to believe their belief, obviously.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
The innocents that our countries have executed thru' verdicts based upon..... 'beyond reasonable doubt'. And how much we changed our minds later on. :)

I already offered the OP a possible way of communicating a 'fact' by offering the simplest of of Prewords....... 'This is my Truth', the offered truth which can be overturned but with due respect offered to the original claimant, who did not lie.

With this simple concept in mind I can acknowledge anybody's faith or beliefs without reserve, even though I could not support every (or any) one.

That's fine but at some point, the community has to agree to a course of action. Even if it is the wrong one.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Try to understand the relationship between (and the difference between) definition and categorization. And then, while pondering why it "communicates nothing" to you, acknowledge that the problem may have something to do with your understanding.
The term "absolute" refers to an unconditional state. To a state that is not subject to varied degree, relative conditions, or subjective criteria. "Fullness", on the other hand, refers a relative degree of something. Which makes it, by definition, not absolute. Fullness can only be achieved relative to it's container, and it's criteria. Therefor, 'fullness' is a relative condition, and cannot then be called an absolute condition without wrongly using/abusing the term "absolute".

People wrongly use the term "absolute" as an adjective attached to degree, to emphasize the degree, but they do so incorrectly, as the term "absolute" does not logically apply to any relative 'degree' of anything.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Hello Tony!

Tony........... your religion is the Bahai Faith. You have Faith.
Bahauallah may have felt that he had certitude (hence his book named thus) but for Bahais it's all about Faith surely?

So it's your Truth, and you only fall when you expect it to be everybody's..

Good morning OB.

If God is, then the Faiths are and Baha'u'llah Is.

If that is the case, it is all about personal choice and acceptance. We fall by lack of that that acceptance, or a raised by it.

Thus is becomes, in this age a global issue and Baha'u'llah offered He was given a Message from God for the Salvation of all Humanity.

I am currently reading the Promised Day is Come by Shoghi Effendi. He had an amazing grasp of His Grandfather's Message and describes how the Message will unfold in uncanny detail.

It seems to me that the Most Great Peace is definitely now in a distant future, it will come, but our rejection has meant it may be a few generarions, even a New Messenger before we see it come about.

There will definitely be a Universal Convulsion that brings the Faith from obscurity to being embraced by many peoples. I do not think Covid-19 ws that calamity, it has made people think, but will it change minds to embrace our oneness as humanity? Baha'u'llah has said the faith hinges on that acceptance.

Lots we could chat about, I just wish you and the better half safe and well. :)

I may BE having a great change, may be selling up and starting again elsewhere.

Look after yourself OB, I hope none of us fall, that we all become one.

Regards Tony
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
The term "absolute" refers to an unconditional state. To a state that is not subject to varied degree, relative conditions, or subjective criteria. "Fullness", on the other hand, refers a relative degree of something. Which makes it, by definition, not absolute. Fullness can only be achieved relative to it's container, and it's criteria. Therefor, 'fullness' is a relative condition, and cannot then be called an absolute condition without wrongly using/abusing the term "absolute".

People wrongly use the term "absolute" as an adjective attached to degree, to emphasize the degree, but they do so incorrectly, as the term "absolute" does not logically apply to any relative 'degree' of anything.
That glass is full with absolute:

wp3648148.jpg
 

PureX

Veteran Member
It may be Absolute Vodka, but it's not absolutely vodka. (Nor is it absolutely full of vodka.) :)
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
That's fine but at some point, the community has to agree to a course of action. Even if it is the wrong one.
Yes. True.
But our communities need to understand that they make mistakes as well as individuals. Then we can turn stuff around if it goes wrong.

We just do our best, I guess. :)
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Yes. True.
But our communities need to understand that they make mistakes as well as individuals. Then we can turn stuff around if it goes wrong.

We just do our best, I guess. :)

Seems hard for humans to admit mistakes. Everyone gets critical and wants to lay blame somewhere else, but until we admit our mistakes we can't fix anything.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Seems hard for humans to admit mistakes. Everyone gets critical and wants to lay blame somewhere else, but until we admit our mistakes we can't fix anything.
Yes, especially political parties.
They just cannot stop the bulldust, can they?
Sad.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
What exactly defines unreal? Other then things imagined, everything is real. There is no unreal. It may be totally different then as appears, but never unreal.

Experience alone says I exist as something, and the experience has properties that can't be run from.

It would be highly fascinating if we exist as an alternate reality that is a mere program. Try as you may you would have to be advanced beyond anyone's wildest dreams to create a feeling experience that isn't real. In a simulation, the information would have to be real.

I do understand what you are saying. But I can make entirely different connections as to what we truly are, even inside a simulation.

It's not that I don't exist. Existing has properties, and rules governing what can exist and how. The world around me may be fabricated, but my experiences say I am real.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
When it comes to matters that involve even a tiny amount of faith, I never say, "I know." I say, "I believe..."
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
That's because it's not.
You clearly demonstrated that use of the word absolutely outside your narrow preference is not accepted by you.
I have shown that you are flat out wrong that the word absolutely has the restrictions you have placed upon it.
That you are so much more interested in this semantic side tangent than in the topic you so desperately deviated from....
 
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