Muslims: What Do You Think of the Baha'i Faith?

[MSizer]

Are believers in Baha'i faith unforgivable heretics? Do you consider them like christians, who got part of the story right, but part of it wrong?

 

[ProudMuslim]

Personally i think Baha'i are the most respectful to prophet Muhammed (PBUH) and Qur'an after Muslims and therefore they got my utmost respect.

 

[Sahar]

Baha'i faith is invalid and followers of that religion are disbelievers, islamically speaking.

But the Christians and the Jews are People of the Book who have a special regard.

 

[YmirGF]

Baha'i faith is invalid and followers of that religion are disbelievers, islamically speaking.

From a theological view, that is my understanding as well. I think most Muslims would echo this sentiment.

 

[MissAlice]

I don't know about Islam itself but I do know many Baha'is have been persecuted for a long time by many people of muslim faith.

 

[arthra]

Baha'i Faith is an independent religion having it's own sites of pilgrimage, prayers and revealed Writings..

Since this is a comparative religion section and the question was raised by Hyper above I wanted to share the following citation:

Ye are forbidden to commit adultery, sodomy and lechery. Avoid them, O concourse of the faithful. By the righteousness of God! Ye have been called into being to purge the world from the defilement of evil passions. This is what the Lord of all mankind hath enjoined upon you, could ye but perceive it. He who relateth himself to the All-Merciful and committeth satanic deeds, verily he is not of Me. Unto this beareth witness every atom, pebble, tree and fruit, and beyond them this ever-proclaiming, truthful and trustworthy Tongue.

~ Bahá'u'lláh, from a Tablet - translated from the Arabic

(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 57)

Cleanliness is also I might add a quality that is extolled in the Faith:

External cleanliness, although it is but a physical thing, hath a great influence upon spirituality. For example, although sound is but the vibrations of the air which affect the tympanum of the ear, and vibrations of the air are but an accident among the accidents which depend upon the air, consider how much marvelous notes or a charming song influence the spirits! A wonderful song giveth wings to the spirit and filleth the heart with exaltation. To return to the subject, the fact of having a pure and spotless body likewise exerciseth an influence upon the spirit of man.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith, p. 333

Abdul-Baha said this about Prophet Muhammad:

All praise and honor be to the Dayspring of Divine wisdom, the Dawning Point of Revelation (Muhammad), and to the holy line of His descendants, since, by the widespread rays of His consummate wisdom, His universal knowledge, those savage denizens of Yathrib (Medina) and Batha (Mecca), miraculously, and in so brief a time, were drawn out of the depths of their ignorance, rose up to the pinnacles of learning, and became centers of arts and sciences and human perfections, and stars of felicity and true civilization, shining across the horizons of the world.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, The Secret of Divine Civilization, p. 4

Baha'is have utmost respect for Prophet Muhammad and His dispensation..

 

[kai]

Bahais very existence presents a challenge to the doctrine of the perfection and finality of Muhammad's revelation.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

Bahais very existence presents a challenge to the doctrine of the perfection and finality of Muhammad's revelation.

Not at all!

We Baha'is happily stipulate the perfection of Muhammad, and all the other Divine Messengers as well!

But this in no way implies Muhammad or Islam was any sort of final revelation. That's only one of a number of different interpretations of the verse in question, and the other interpretations clearly permit further revelations.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Snowber]

Are believers in Baha'i faith unforgivable heretics? Do you consider them like christians, who got part of the story right, but part of it wrong?

Though many Muslims agree that they disagree with how the Bahaii faith is practiced, it is noteworthy that it is no reason to persecute them:

[2:256] There shall be no COMPULSION in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.

So to answer your question, Muslims typically believe Bahaii faith is an innovation of religion. That being said, many Muslims are wrong in oppressing them as well.

Greetings!



Not at all!

We Baha'is happily stipulate the perfection of Muhammad, and all the other Divine Messengers as well!

But this in no way implies Muhammad or Islam was any sort of final revelation. That's only one of a number of different interpretations of the verse in question, and the other interpretations clearly permit further revelations.

Peace,

Bruce

According to the Koran, messengers and prophets were not perfect (I don't mean to debate here, just discussing what it says -_^). I want to ask how the Koran is interpreted to say that there will be another scripture if I may, but I am afraid it will break the rules of this Discussion forum(?)

 

[A-ManESL]

I want to ask how the Koran is interpreted to say that there will be another scripture if I may, but I am afraid it will break the rules of this Discussion forum(?)

I guess the reference must be to the following verse of the Quran,

Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.-Quran 33:40

The word "Seal of the Prophets" is taken to mean by orthodox Muslims as the final prophet. The Bahá'í Faith does regard Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) as the seal of the prophets in another sense, but does not interpret this term as meaning that no further messengers from God are possible.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

First off, for the record, the correct spelling is "Baha'i."

If it'll help, "baha" means "glory" (or "splendor"), and the suffix forms the adjective, so that "Baha'i" means "of Glory."

I want to ask how the Koran is interpreted to say that there will be another scripture....

Muslims often interpret the Qur'an as stating that Muhammad, being the Seal of the Prophets, is the final prophet and that there will be no more Divine Messengers sent by God (or Allah).

In fact, IOV this whole “last prophet” thing is based upon a misunderstanding!

There are in fact several different explanations of the verse in the Qur’an saying Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets (a statement we Baha’is accept, please note!):

• First off, there is a sense in which EVERY Divine Messenger is the First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, and the Seal!

• Next, there are multiple Arabic words that all translate into English as "prophet."

One of these is "nabi," which refers to a minor prophet such as Jeremiah or Amos.

Another is Ras'ul, which means a major, religion-founding Divine Messenger like Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, or Baha'u'llah (our Founder). (And yes, Muhammad was a major--not a minor--Prophet.)

But the word actually used in the Qur'an is "nabi," meaning Muhammad was the Seal of the minor prophets! This says nothing whatever about the great Divine Messengers.

• Muhammad is also the Seal in the sense that He was the last Messenger during the Prophetic Age, which began with Adam and ended with Him. The Bab then closed out that Age and opened the Age of Fulfillment, of which Baha'u'llah is the first major Messenger.

• Finally, there is a sense in which the word commonly translated as "seal" also means "ornament," so that this verse of the Qur'an may simply be saying that Muhammad is the Ornament of the prophets! (Nothing whatever about any sort of finish.)

Best!

Bruce

 

[Snowber]

I guess the reference must be to the following verse of the Quran,



The word "Seal of the Prophets" is taken to mean by orthodox Muslims as the final prophet. The Bahá'í Faith does regard Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) as the seal of the prophets in another sense, but does not interpret this term as meaning that no further messengers from God are possible.

Greetings!

First off, for the record, the correct spelling is "Baha'i."

If it'll help, "baha" means "glory" (or "splendor"), and the suffix forms the adjective, so that "Baha'i" means "of Glory."



Muslims often interpret the Qur'an as stating that Muhammad, being the Seal of the Prophets, is the final prophet and that there will be no more Divine Messengers sent by God (or Allah).

In fact, IOV this whole “last prophet” thing is based upon a misunderstanding!

There are in fact several different explanations of the verse in the Qur’an saying Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets (a statement we Baha’is accept, please note!):

• First off, there is a sense in which EVERY Divine Messenger is the First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, and the Seal!

• Next, there are multiple Arabic words that all translate into English as "prophet."

One of these is "nabi," which refers to a minor prophet such as Jeremiah or Amos.

Another is Ras'ul, which means a major, religion-founding Divine Messenger like Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, or Baha'u'llah (our Founder). (And yes, Muhammad was a major--not a minor--Prophet.)

But the word actually used in the Qur'an is "nabi," meaning Muhammad was the Seal of the minor prophets! This says nothing whatever about the great Divine Messengers.

• Muhammad is also the Seal in the sense that He was the last Messenger during the Prophetic Age, which began with Adam and ended with Him. The Bab then closed out that Age and opened the Age of Fulfillment, of which Baha'u'llah is the first major Messenger.

• Finally, there is a sense in which the word commonly translated as "seal" also means "ornament," so that this verse of the Qur'an may simply be saying that Muhammad is the Ornament of the prophets! (Nothing whatever about any sort of finish.)

Best!

Bruce

First of all I am sorry for mispelling Baha'i.

Also to both people I've quoted I'd like to say they are interesting quotes and I definitely agree about part:

A carefully study of the Koran, I think, will show that Prophet and Messenger are not the same. Prophet is a Scripture bearing "messenger" whereas a Messenger cannot be a prophet only one who "confirms" in a sense.

So though the prophet Muhammad brought the final "Scripture" we know, according to the Koran, that there will be a messenger (which some believe has already come (excluding Baha'u'llah) .

[3:81] GOD took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom. Afterwards, a messenger will come to confirm all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you."

So after the prophet Muhammad has come there MUST come a messenger to confirm the Scripture.

I took this quote from a site a while back (it is down currently for some reason) and I'd like your take on it:

Glorification of Bahaullah: Throughout the Quran, Muhammed is
depicted as an ordinary man and along with other messengers is
chastised many times (17:73-75; 33:37, 66:1, 80:1-10).
The Quran makes it clear not to revere human beings (5:44),
not even the prophets (41:6; 18:110). Reading Baha'i literature,
one can clearly see a glorification of the founders. this is
particularly clear by various titles given to the leaders such
as Bahaullah, manifestation of God, etc. Apparently in Aqdas,
the man himself claims some form of divinity. Claiming to have
the power to intercede- The Quran teaches us that all intercession
belongs to God (39:44). The intercession of intercessors will
never help (2:123; 74:48) and will not be accepted (9:80; 11:45,46).
We read in "Bahaullah and the New Era" that those who are near
the divine court are allowed to intercede and their intercession
is approved by God. Further it claims that intercession is one
of the attributes belonging to the "manifestations of God;" meaning
bahaullah himself. This is in direct conflict with the Quranic
teachings. Intercession is Satan's most effective bait to entice
people into idol-worship.

 

[A-ManESL]

First of all I am sorry for mispelling Baha'i.

Also to both people I've quoted I'd like to say they are interesting quotes and I definitely agree about part:

A carefully study of the Koran, I think, will show that Prophet and Messenger are not the same. Prophet is a Scripture bearing "messenger" whereas a Messenger cannot be a prophet only one who "confirms" in a sense.

So though the prophet Muhammad brought the final "Scripture" we know, according to the Koran, that there will be a messenger (which some believe has already come (excluding Baha'u'llah) .



So after the prophet Muhammad has come there MUST come a messenger to confirm the Scripture.

I took this quote from a site a while back (it is down currently for some reason) and I'd like your take on it:

Thanks for asking but actually I don't have enough knowledge on the Baha'i faith to answer you properly with what it decrees concerning the status of the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh).

But I do not accept your interpretation of the verse 3:81 to mean that the Prophet Muhammad has bought a scripture and there will be a messenger along to comfirm it. I believe you are entirely disregarding the context of the verse. In context, the verse is actually addressing the Jews and the Christians, and saying that recall the fact that when the convenant with their Prophets was agreed upon they verified that a messenger will come to confirm it, (and our Hazrat Muhammad (pbuh) has brought the confirmation.) This verse does not address our Prophet nor does it say that there will be a messenger to confirm what he has said.

As for intercession, the verse 2:123 is being blatantly misused to denounce it. It says that intercession will not be accepted on judgement day, thats all. Similarly 74:48,9:80,11:45-46 refers to those who sin, and only expect to be helped by intercession. I do not believe, depite my poor knowledge of the Baha'i faith, that the Baha'is decrees that you may sin as much as you like and yet you will be saved by intercession.

On the contrary, here are a few arguments in favor of intercession:
1. Hafidhh Ibn Tayymiah writes that Uthman bin Haneef RadhiAllahu 'anhu narrates that a blind person came to RasoolAllah [May Allah bless Him and grant Him peace]and said: 'Pray to Allah that He bestows me with sight'. RasoolAllah [May Allah bless Him and grant Him peace] replied: 'Perform ablution, pray two rak'at Salaah and then supplicate to Allah in this way: 'Ya Allah, I ask You through the Waseela of the Prophet [May Allah bless Him and grant Him peace]; Allah Subhana wa ta'ala returned his sight.
[“Al-Tawasul by Hafidhh Ibn Tayymiah page 80 he obtained information from these books Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah, Haakim, Imam Bukhari in Tareekh, Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal and Tibraani”]

2. After death of Prophet:Hafidhh Ibn Taymyya writes: A person came to Uthman Ghani RadhiAllahu 'anhu with regards to seeking some assistance, but he was unable to attract the attention of the Khalifah on every attempt. The same person met Uthman bin Haneef, RadhiAllahu 'anhu, and told him his problem. Uthman bin Haneef gave him some advice which was: 'Perform Wudhu, pray two rak'at Nawaafil and then supplicate in this way: " Ya Allah, I ask You through the Waseela of Your Messenger Muhammad [May Allah bless Him and grant Him peace]The person again went to Uthman bin Affan RadhiAllahu 'anhu who helped him with his work and also said 'If you ever need my help in future, I will help you (with regards to work).
[Qay’da jaleelah Hafidhh Ibn Taymiyah page 96 Tabraani, Bayhaqi, Hakim]

The fundamental argument in waseela countering charges of shirk,is propounded as follows:

Firstly, the truly beloved of God are not truly dead, just like those who died in the way of God are not truly dead as said by Quran 3:169, (the apparent difference is that their jihad was internal not external). Just like the prophet Moses (on whom may be peace) told the Prophet to get the obligatory prayers reduced from 50 to 5 during the ascension (miraaj) similarly they can guide a person asking them for help after apparent death. Also the permissibility of waseela is in regard to one who asks Allah Ta’ala for a particular need and in doing so, he uses some honourable personality as his means without thinking or believing that the person is being supplicated to or that he will fulfil his need. Yes, if one asks directly from the deceased and he believes that the Anbiyaa [alayhimus salaam] and the pious [rahimahumullah] independently possess the power to provide, then this would be Shirk (polytheism) because he is now ascribing partners to Allah in the quality of ‘Providing’.

God knows best.

Regards.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings, Snowber!

(Please note that I wasn't criticizing your spelling: that was a general note because I'd noticed several people misspelling the word.)

You seem somehow to reverse my usage of the term prophet and Manifestation and use each for the other, but maybe I'm mistaken about this.

You state that glorification of Divine Messengers isn't proper or accepted, but it seems to me that standard Islamic practice itself belies this because it's standard practice for Muslims to append "praise be to Him" (or the Arabic equivalent, sometimes abbreviated) to Muhammad's name every time they use it!

I see someone else has already replied about intecession.

Please note that IOV (at least), your comments about what Baha'u'llah can and cannot do would apply equally to Muhammad and all the other Divine Messengers as well.

I think that a better understanding of these Messengers' dual status will help tremendously to clear all this up, so please permit me to explain:

We Baha'is teach that all the major religions of the world are divine in origin, sent by God as stages in a single divine plan. (There is only one Faith, the Faith of God.)

A Divine Messenger has a dual station; He is both a man (who was born, died, etc.) and also a Manifestation of the eternal spirit of God. He may be likened to a mirror reflecting the sun. It is correct to point to the mirror and say, "That is the sun." It is also correct to say "That's not the sun, only a mirror." Thus Jesus said, "Why callest thou Me good? There is none good but the Father in Heaven" (Jesus the man speaking), but also said "Before Abraham was, I am" and "No one comes to the Father but by Me" (the eternal spirit speaking, here called "Christ"). This latter "but by Me" quote refers to the fact that only through these Messengers can humankind know God.
[continues]

 

[BruceDLimber]

[continued]

In the Baha'i scriptures, it's expressed like this:


{196}Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: "I am God!" He verily speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been re

{161}t is evident ...that the Bearers of the trust of God are made manifest unto the peoples of the earth as the Exponents of a new Cause and the Bearers of a new Message. Inasmuch as these Birds of the Celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they therefore are regarded as one soul and the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness. These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station. One is the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect, if thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the same attribute, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath revealed: "No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers!" For they one and all summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the Unity of God, and herald unto them the [river] of an infinite grace and bounty. They are all invested with the robe of Prophethood, and honoured with the mantle of glory. Thus hath Muhammad, the Point of the Qur'an, revealed: "I am all the Prophets." Likewise, He saith: "I am the first Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus."... Sayings such as this, which indicate the essential unity of those Exponents of Oneness, have also emanated from the Channels of God's immortal utterance, and the Treasuries of the gems of divine knowledge, and have been recorded in the scriptures. These Countenances are the recipients of the Divine Command, and the day-springs of His Revelation. This Revelation is exalted above the veils of plurality and the exigencies of number. Thus He saith: "Our Cause is but one." Inasmuch as the Cause is one and the same, the Exponents thereof also must needs be one and the same...

{162}It is clear and evident ... that all the Prophets are the Temples of the Cause of God, Who have appeared clothed in divers attire. If thou wilt observe with discriminating eyes, thou wilt behold them all abiding in the same tabernacle, soaring in the same heaven, seated upon the same throne, uttering the same speech, and proclaiming the same Faith. Such is the unity of those Essences of being, those Luminaries of infinite and immeasurable splendour. Wherefore, should one of these Manifestations of Holiness proclaim saying: "I am the return of all the Prophets," He verily speaketh the truth. In like manner, in every subsequent Revelation, the return of the former Revelation is a fact...

{191}We have already in the foregoing pages assigned two stations unto each of the Luminaries arising from the Daysprings of eternal holiness. One of these stations, the station of essential unity, We have already explained. "No distinction do We make between any of them." The other is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined Revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite Mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation. Even as He saith: "Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit."

{192}It is because of this difference in their station and mission that the words and utterances flowing from these Well-springs of divine knowledge appear to diverge and differ. Otherwise, in the eyes of them that are initiated into the mysteries of divine wisdom, all their utterances are in reality but the expressions of one Truth. As most of the people have failed to appreciate those stations to which We have referred, they therefore feel perplexed and dismayed at the varying utterances pronounced by Manifestations that are essentially one and the same.

{193}It hath ever been evident that all these divergences of utterance are attributable to differences of station. Thus, viewed from the standpoint of their oneness and sublime detachment, the attributes of Godhead, Divinity, Supreme Singleness, and Inmost Essence, have been and are applicable to those Essences of being, inasmuch as they all abide on the throne of divine Revelation, and are established upon the seat of divine Concealment. Through their appearance the Revelation of God is made manifest, and by their countenance the Beauty of God is revealed. Thus it is that the accents of God Himself have been heard uttered by these Manifestations of the divine Being.

{194}Viewed in the light of their second station - the station of distinction, differentiation, temporal limitations, characteristics and standards, - they manifest absolute servitude, utter destitution and complete self-effacement. Even as He saith: "I am the servant of God. I am but a man like you."

{195}From these incontrovertible and fully demonstrated statements strive thou to apprehend the meaning of the questions thou hast asked, that thou mayest become steadfast in the Faith of God, and not be dismayed by the divergences in the utterances of His Prophets and Chosen Ones.

{196}Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: "I am God!" He verily speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. Thus, He hath revealed: "Those shafts were God's, not Thine!" And also He saith: "In truth, they who plighted fealty unto thee, really plighted that fealty unto God." And were any of them to voice the utterance: "I am the Messenger of God," He also speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth... For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the "Beginning" and the "End," the "First" and the "Last," the "Seen" and "Hidden" - all of which pertain to Him Who is the innermost Spirit of Spirits and eternal Essence of Essences. And were they to say: "We are the servants of God," this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain. Thus in moments in which these Essences of being were deeply immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of divine mysteries, they claimed their utterance to be the Voice of divinity, the Call of God Himself. Were the eye of discernment to be opened, it would recognize that in this very state, they have considered themselves utterly effaced and non-existent in the face of Him Who is the All-Pervading, the Incorruptible. Methinks, they have regarded themselves as utter nothingness, and deemed their mention in that Court an act of blasphemy. For the slightest whispering of self, within such a Court, is an evidence of self-assertion and independent existence. In the eyes of them that have attained unto that Court, such a suggestion is itself a grievous transgression. How much more grievous would it be, were aught else to be mentioned in that Presence, were man's heart, his tongue, his mind, or his soul, to be busied with anyone but the Well-Beloved, were his eyes to behold any countenance other than His beauty, were his ear to be inclined to any melody but His voice, and were his feet to tread any way but His way.

—(The Book of Certitude, pages 152-154, 176-180)
[end quote]

Best regards,

Bruce

 

[A-ManESL]

A Divine Messenger has a dual station; He is both a man (who was born, died, etc.) and also a Manifestation of the eternal spirit of God. He may be likened to a mirror reflecting the sun. It is correct to point to the mirror and say, "That is the sun." It is also correct to say "That's not the sun, only a mirror." Thus Jesus said, "Why callest thou Me good? There is none good but the Father in Heaven" (Jesus the man speaking), but also said "Before Abraham was, I am" and "No one comes to the Father but by Me" (the eternal spirit speaking, here called "Christ"). This latter "but by Me" quote refers to the fact that only through these Messengers can humankind know God.
[continues]

The Prophet Muhammad was exteriorally the messenger of God for men but spiritually he was in " union" with the Lord. He was the inwardly the Universal man, and the Primordial man, that original perfection with respect to which we are a decadence and a falling away. Being in "spiritual union", takes away the duality between man and God, and everything that remains is God.

A Qudsi Hadith attributed to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is this:

I am Ahmed without the meem (meaning Ahad, meaning Unity). I am an Arab without the Ain (meaning Rab, meaning the Lord). Whosoever hath seen me, the same hath seen the Truth.

Thus I agree with you regarding the dual status of the Prophet in a certain sense.

Indeed, Allah confers blessing upon the Prophet, and His angels [ask Him to do so]. O you who have believed, ask [ Allah to confer] blessing upon him and ask [ Allah to grant him] peace.-Quran 33:56

Regards.

 

[Snowber]

Thanks for asking but actually I don't have enough knowledge on the Baha'i faith to answer you properly with what it decrees concerning the status of the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh).

But I do not accept your interpretation of the verse 3:81 to mean that the Prophet Muhammad has bought a scripture and there will be a messenger along to comfirm it. I believe you are entirely disregarding the context of the verse. In context, the verse is actually addressing the Jews and the Christians, and saying that recall the fact that when the convenant with their Prophets was agreed upon they verified that a messenger will come to confirm it, (and our Hazrat Muhammad (pbuh) has brought the confirmation.) This verse does not address our Prophet nor does it say that there will be a messenger to confirm what he has said.

As for intercession, the verse 2:123 is being blatantly misused to denounce it. It says that intercession will not be accepted on judgement day, thats all. Similarly 74:48,9:80,11:45-46 refers to those who sin, and only expect to be helped by intercession. I do not believe, depite my poor knowledge of the Baha'i faith, that the Baha'is decrees that you may sin as much as you like and yet you will be saved by intercession.

On the contrary, here are a few arguments in favor of intercession:
1. Hafidhh Ibn Tayymiah writes that Uthman bin Haneef RadhiAllahu 'anhu narrates that a blind person came to RasoolAllah [May Allah bless Him and grant Him peace]and said: 'Pray to Allah that He bestows me with sight'. RasoolAllah [May Allah bless Him and grant Him peace] replied: 'Perform ablution, pray two rak'at Salaah and then supplicate to Allah in this way: 'Ya Allah, I ask You through the Waseela of the Prophet [May Allah bless Him and grant Him peace]; Allah Subhana wa ta'ala returned his sight.
[“Al-Tawasul by Hafidhh Ibn Tayymiah page 80 he obtained information from these books Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah, Haakim, Imam Bukhari in Tareekh, Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal and Tibraani”]

2. After death of Prophet:Hafidhh Ibn Taymyya writes: A person came to Uthman Ghani RadhiAllahu 'anhu with regards to seeking some assistance, but he was unable to attract the attention of the Khalifah on every attempt. The same person met Uthman bin Haneef, RadhiAllahu 'anhu, and told him his problem. Uthman bin Haneef gave him some advice which was: 'Perform Wudhu, pray two rak'at Nawaafil and then supplicate in this way: " Ya Allah, I ask You through the Waseela of Your Messenger Muhammad [May Allah bless Him and grant Him peace]The person again went to Uthman bin Affan RadhiAllahu 'anhu who helped him with his work and also said 'If you ever need my help in future, I will help you (with regards to work).
[Qay’da jaleelah Hafidhh Ibn Taymiyah page 96 Tabraani, Bayhaqi, Hakim]

The fundamental argument in waseela countering charges of shirk,is propounded as follows:

Firstly, the truly beloved of God are not truly dead, just like those who died in the way of God are not truly dead as said by Quran 3:169, (the apparent difference is that their jihad was internal not external). Just like the prophet Moses (on whom may be peace) told the Prophet to get the obligatory prayers reduced from 50 to 5 during the ascension (miraaj) similarly they can guide a person asking them for help after apparent death. Also the permissibility of waseela is in regard to one who asks Allah Ta’ala for a particular need and in doing so, he uses some honourable personality as his means without thinking or believing that the person is being supplicated to or that he will fulfil his need. Yes, if one asks directly from the deceased and he believes that the Anbiyaa [alayhimus salaam] and the pious [rahimahumullah] independently possess the power to provide, then this would be Shirk (polytheism) because he is now ascribing partners to Allah in the quality of ‘Providing’.

God knows best.

Regards.

Dear A-ManESL my friend,

I cannot accept that 3:81 talks only about the prophets before Muhammad because we have enough evidence today to show that, in fact, a messenger has come after the prophet Muhammad to confirm the Koran. This has always beens God's system. Remember, when Joseph passed away, they said:

[40:34] Joseph had come to you before that with clear revelations, but you continued to doubt his message. Then, when he died you said, "GOD will not send any other messenger after him. (He was the last messenger)!"** GOD thus sends astray those who are transgressors, doubtful.

As for the Hadith quotes and intercession, remember this:

GOD has condemned intercession and Hadith. In fact, Hadith was clearly condemned by name in the Koran in many places. Also, Hadith and Sunna did not come until 200 years or more after the prophet Muhammad died. In fact, there is a Hadith "stating" that there should be no Hadith (I can find this for you but the site I usually find it from is down but I have a copy just it's older so I'll have to do some searching but I do not mind).

Below is a pastebin on verses in the Koran mentioning Hadith, I did not want to take up too much room in this post but it is all here:

Hadith according to the Koran

I believe today we have done the same thing. We feel that because Muhammad delivered the Koran and he was "our prophet" that it would be shameful to say a messenger would come after, but this is not the case. In fact GOD has shown us in the Koran that prophets are human beings and even given us examples of their errors.

My friend, I know personally (coming from a Sunni background) how difficult it is to read and accept these things initially, but in the end you will see that GOD did not need other writings to support the Koran, and in fact, to respect the prophet Muhammad you would not follow something he clearly would not support. Remember, GOD tells us not to make any distinction among the messengers of GOD:

A few verses about distinction of GOD's messengers here:

No Distinction Among GOD's Messengers

And some verses about intercession here:

No Intercession according to GOD

I wanted to post this here specifically my friend:

Satan's Most Effective Bait:
The Myth of Intercession*

[9:80] Whether you ask forgiveness for them, or do not ask forgiveness for them - even if you ask forgiveness for them seventy times - GOD will not forgive them. This is because they disbelieve in GOD and His messenger. GOD does not guide the wicked people.

*9:80 If Muhammad could not intercede on behalf of his own uncles and cousins, what makes strangers who never met him think that he will intercede on their behalf? Abraham could not intercede on behalf of his father, nor could Noah intercede on behalf of his son (11:46 & 60:4).

Continued..

 

[Snowber]

Greetings, Snowber!

(Please note that I wasn't criticizing your spelling: that was a general note because I'd noticed several people misspelling the word.)

You seem somehow to reverse my usage of the term prophet and Manifestation and use each for the other, but maybe I'm mistaken about this.

You state that glorification of Divine Messengers isn't proper or accepted, but it seems to me that standard Islamic practice itself belies this because it's standard practice for Muslims to append "praise be to Him" (or the Arabic equivalent, sometimes abbreviated) to Muhammad's name every time they use it!

I see someone else has already replied about intecession.

Please note that IOV (at least), your comments about what Baha'u'llah can and cannot do would apply equally to Muhammad and all the other Divine Messengers as well.

I think that a better understanding of these Messengers' dual status will help tremendously to clear all this up, so please permit me to explain:

We Baha'is teach that all the major religions of the world are divine in origin, sent by God as stages in a single divine plan. (There is only one Faith, the Faith of God.)

A Divine Messenger has a dual station; He is both a man (who was born, died, etc.) and also a Manifestation of the eternal spirit of God. He may be likened to a mirror reflecting the sun. It is correct to point to the mirror and say, "That is the sun." It is also correct to say "That's not the sun, only a mirror." Thus Jesus said, "Why callest thou Me good? There is none good but the Father in Heaven" (Jesus the man speaking), but also said "Before Abraham was, I am" and "No one comes to the Father but by Me" (the eternal spirit speaking, here called "Christ"). This latter "but by Me" quote refers to the fact that only through these Messengers can humankind know God.
[continues]

Dear friend BruceDLimber,

Don't worry, I took no offense about being told about the mispelling, no worries!

Also before I forget, what is IOV if I may ask? I could not find what it stood for.

Also I would just like to make clear, GOD willing, that I do not support mentioning the prophet Muhammad's name next to GOD's when saying

"There is no god beside GOD, and He has no partners" (Instead saying There is no god beside GOD, and Muhammad is His messenger"

[63:1] When the hypocrites come to you they say, "We bear witness that you are the messenger of GOD."* GOD knows that you are His messenger, and GOD bears witness that the hypocrites are liars.

In fact the only Shahadah according to the Koran is "There is no god beside GOD". I truly do not believe the prophet Muhammad would support the way they have idolized him today when his only job was to deliver the message, remember, he was worrying about his own neck like all prophets and messengers before him.

Dear Bruce, we have to be very careful. To make a claim that a being is in incarnation of GOD is a gross offense. Please see my reply above to A-ManESL on why intercession is not accepted and, GOD willing, you will see how it is rejected in the Koran.

Please understand that I do not think any prophets or messengers are "divine" simply because GOD tells us they were human beings and they made mistakes.

GOD's true message since the beginning of time has been to worship Him alone. Idol worship is very effective bait by Satan, and remember that idol worship isn't necessary praying to a statue, but can be whatever occupies your mind the most:

[12:106] The majority of those who believe in GOD do not do so without committing idol worship.

GOD also gives us examples of our spouses/children/businesses being our "idols" because they may cause us to forget GOD. Do not be tricked my friends, our safest way out is to follow GOD alone, it will not offend any of GOD's messengers because their duty was to advocate worship of GOD alone, devoting our religion absolutely to Him alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

A Qudsi Hadith attributed to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is this:

Quote:
I am Ahmed without the meem (meaning Ahad, meaning Unity). I am an Arab without the Ain (meaning Rab, meaning the Lord). Whosoever hath seen me, the same hath seen the Truth.
Thus I agree with you regarding the dual status of the Prophet in a certain sense.

Quote:
Indeed, Allah confers blessing upon the Prophet, and His angels [ask Him to do so]. O you who have believed, ask [ Allah to confer] blessing upon him and ask [ Allah to grant him] peace.-Quran 33:56
Regards.

Regards.

My friend, just as Christians have idolized the prophet Jesus, Muslims have done the same with the prophet Muhammad (imagine had Muhammad turned water into wine, resurrected the dead by GOD's leave and more, the idol worship would be much more severe).

[25:30] The messenger* said, "My Lord, my people have deserted this Quran."

The prophet Muhammad himself will say this on the Day of Resurrection. My friends, isn't it time to examine the Koran closely and worship GOD as He deserves to be worshipped? Without setting up partners with Him.

In fact I think most of us have seen the consequences of idol worship in our own lives without perceiving it. Can you remember loving your car too much and then getting into trouble with it? Loving money too much? Loving your children or spouse to the point where it comes back to haunt you because you forgot GOD?

I am showing no disrespect to any of GOD's messengers. In fact it was very difficult for me, initially, to accept this understand but the signs of it in the Koran are flawless. Remember, I have had to disagree with the practices of my own family, but the evidence was so strong that we had made a big mistake in following sources other than the Koran that I must reject them kindly as well, family or not: GOD comes first.

Peace my brothers.

 

[A-ManESL]

Dear A-ManESL my friend,

I cannot accept that 3:81 talks only about the prophets before Muhammad because we have enough evidence today to show that, in fact, a messenger has come after the prophet Muhammad to confirm the Koran. This has always beens God's system. Remember, when Joseph passed away, they said:



As for the Hadith quotes and intercession, remember this:

GOD has condemned intercession and Hadith. In fact, Hadith was clearly condemned by name in the Koran in many places. Also, Hadith and Sunna did not come until 200 years or more after the prophet Muhammad died. In fact, there is a Hadith "stating" that there should be no Hadith (I can find this for you but the site I usually find it from is down but I have a copy just it's older so I'll have to do some searching but I do not mind).

Below is a pastebin on verses in the Koran mentioning Hadith, I did not want to take up too much room in this post but it is all here:

Hadith according to the Koran

I believe today we have done the same thing. We feel that because Muhammad delivered the Koran and he was "our prophet" that it would be shameful to say a messenger would come after, but this is not the case. In fact GOD has shown us in the Koran that prophets are human beings and even given us examples of their errors.

My friend, I know personally (coming from a Sunni background) how difficult it is to read and accept these things initially, but in the end you will see that GOD did not need other writings to support the Koran, and in fact, to respect the prophet Muhammad you would not follow something he clearly would not support. Remember, GOD tells us not to make any distinction among the messengers of GOD:

A few verses about distinction of GOD's messengers here:

No Distinction Among GOD's Messengers

And some verses about intercession here:

No Intercession according to GOD

I wanted to post this here specifically my friend:



Continued..

Dear Snowber. I thank you for your politeness. My stand however still remains that you are interpreting the Quranic verses incorrectly. For example you do not read 9:79 which has to be read with conjunction with 9:80 to understand its real meaning. The verse 9:80 refers to unrepentant sinners and is not a generic verse. Similarly, all other verses that you mentioned.

Also by the word intercession, I do not mean that a person may commit sins and due to the Prophet's grace he may be forgive. No, no, no.. By intercession I mean asking someone to pray for you on your behalf so that God may grant you something. Anyway, I personally do not practice it but I certainly do not condemn it.

Also I never said that no messengers are possible after the Prophet, I only said that your interpretaion of the verse is incorrect in my opinion. Perhaps we should agree to disagree here. God knows best.

As regards, glorifying the Prophet and giving him the status of an idol, I believe that this is a territory which I hold extremely different views from you, to the extent of believing that even the concept of existence of a God is a kind of an idol worship. The only thing I may say to you at this juncture, that any concept of God that you have deduced from the Quran or elsewhere is incomplete and partial: No words can suffice to describe him, no idea can encapsulate him. He is both transcendent and in every thing(Quran 2:115). So please don't be hasty to judge other peoples conceptions.

Say: “If the sea were ink for the Words of my Lord, surely, the sea would be exhausted before the Words of my Lord would be finished, even if We brought like it for its aid.-Quran 18:109

Regards.

 

[.lava]

Are believers in Baha'i faith unforgivable heretics? Do you consider them like christians, who got part of the story right, but part of it wrong?

hi
i don't have great knowledge on Baha'i faith. from conversations i had with RF members, i leanred we have a difference. we accept Mohammad SAW as the last of Prophets and they don't. if i am not mistaken, they believe that everyone can become Prophet in time by practicing which i would disagree. people are chosen as Prophets and Mohammad SAW was last of them. that's what i believe. other than that, at least the ones i've met here are very kind and genuine people

.