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Muslims and Christian on Jesus...let's debate

S

Sully

Member
My understanding of Muslim apologists are as follows:
  1. Jesus was a prophet
  2. He was born of a virgin (Mary)
  3. He did not die on the cross (swoon theory and substitution theory)
  4. He never said he was God
  5. Jesus will return to coincide with the coming of the Mahdi
  6. Jesus will break crosses and kill swine and implement Sharia Law
  7. Jesus will marry, and have children, and die
We can debate any or all of these statements.

First...I believe without question that Jesus clearly stated he was God. This is a key point, if did say he was God and it was not true he couldn't be a profit of God or a "good moral teacher" that many secular people believe here in the West. As C.S. Lewis wrote there are three possibilities Jesus is Lord, Liar or Lunatic.

Jesus (throughout his ministry) was controlling the timeline. He admonished the Disciples (Matthew 16:21) to not to tell anyone that He was the Christ. He was clearly waiting until the time was right ..

At his trial before the Sanhedrin...the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”
“I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Mark 14: 53-65
 
Terrywoodenpic

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Jesus said he was the son of man far more often than he said that he was the son of God.
He never suggested that he was a prophet.
He never climed to be born to a virgin.
Islam was not in existence till well afer his life time, so questions related to it have no meaning in relation to Jesus.
I would not take the reports of his words in scripture too literally as they were written long after his death. And are likely to be correct in essence but wrong in detail.
C S Lewis was a very strong Christian thinker and believer.
It is very clear that Christ was killed on the cross. As witnessed by the desciples and his women folk.
The exact nature of Jesus relationship to God, has always been questioned, by both some Christians and non-Christians alike.
 
Godobeyer

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
It's My Birthday!
Hello and welcome to RF :)

What greater sin than killing God's son ?
 
S

Sully

Member
Jesus constantly referenced the Old Testament and Son of Man is probably taken from Daniel 7. If you read that chapter you'll see that the Son of Man is a very exalted figure: not just a human figure but an exalted figure. It was Jesus' favorite self-designation.

I disagree that his words were written long after his death...they were written in the lifetime of the Disciples who followed him (granted John was written toward the end of his life); nevertheless, as historical writing go.... the Gospels were written very soon after Christ's death.
 
Kemosloby

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Do Muslims think Jesus was a Jew or a Muslim? That would be important since the bible new testament is closely related to the Jewish old testament. To say Jesus was not a Jew, seems like you might as well forget arguing with Muslims, and dust off your feet, as they say in the bible.
 
S

Sully

Member
I want Muslims to be exposed to Christianity because I believe they are often given false information about Christianity. Also, I realize Islam is the future...it is growing much faster than Christianity...I wonder when you have a great majority will you allow me to stick to my book? Where Islam is the predominant religion Christians and Jews are persecuted, tortured and killed without any repercussions.

Read Killing Christians by Tom Doyle
 
Servant_of_the_One1

Servant_of_the_One1

Well-Known Member
Sully said:
I want Muslims to be exposed to Christianity because I believe they are often given false information about Christianity. Also, I realize Islam is the future...it is growing much faster than Christianity...I wonder when you have a great majority will you allow me to stick to my book? Where Islam is the predominant religion Christians and Jews are persecuted, tortured and killed without any repercussions.

Read Killing Christians by Tom Doyle
Click to expand...

Iam already exposed to Christianity.
I made choice to be disbeliever in christianity.
Bible and Quran rejects Trinity.

Have a nice day.
Peace
 
S

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
Sully said:
First...I believe without question that Jesus clearly stated he was God.
Click to expand...

I respect that. Please give a direct uncontroversial statement from the Bible, or any Christian reliable source, that Jesus said he is (was?) God. God says in the Quran things like "I'm your/the God" and "I'm the creator". We need statements like those.

I know the Islamic view of Jesus could be questioned easily, but the modern Christian view of him can easily be question much more.

Are you a Trinitarian?
 
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S

Sully

Member
I think the only way the Bible makes sense is the Trinity. Starting in Genesis chapter 1 verse 1 has the subject as pural and the verb as singular -In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth. אבְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ:

It is strange how people can accept physical natures in science begin one and existing in several forms simultaneously but we refuse to attribute those same capabilities to God. He created all these physical properties why does he need to be more simple than his creation?
 
Reggie Miller

Reggie Miller

Well-Known Member
Muslims reject the entire NT. Christians reject the Quran.

However, one important fact to observe.

Muslims may visit Mohammed's tomb any time.
But no one can visit the remains of Christ because He is seated at the right hand of the Father.

Mohammed is quite dead. Jesus is very much alive.

That's your real, factual difference.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
Godobeyer said:
Hello and welcome to RF :)

What greater sin than killing God's son ?
Click to expand...
I believe however that the Qu'ran says that the Jews did not kill Him. However I don't believe that absolves them of having placed an innocent man in the position to be killed. Even so Jesus forgave them.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
Kemosloby said:
Do Muslims think Jesus was a Jew or a Muslim? That would be important since the bible new testament is closely related to the Jewish old testament. To say Jesus was not a Jew, seems like you might as well forget arguing with Muslims, and dust off your feet, as they say in the bible.
Click to expand...
Does God have to have faith in Himself and obey Himself? He evidently can hear Himself. So I don't believe He was a Muslim because He could hear Himself but didn't need to obey Himself since He would never oppose His own will.
 
Kemosloby

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Muffled said:
Does God have to have faith in Himself and obey Himself? He evidently can hear Himself. So I don't believe He was a Muslim because He could hear Himself but didn't need to obey Himself since He would never oppose His own will.
Click to expand...
You would be less confused if you read Corinthians, that the Father and Son are two separate beings....
 
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