Chev Chelios
Member
I'd like to discuss the marriages of Muhammad to Aisha and Safiyah because quite frankly, I find the acts themselves deeply troubling although what is perhaps even more worrying is the fact that in the modern day, despite instigating such odious behaviour, Moslems can still espouse such a man as perfect and the perfect example. I am very interested to hear from Moslems how these union's are explained to them by Imams and so by extension - how they would explain them to me.
Aisha
I realise that in the case of Aisha, her age is apparently an increasingly contentious issue for followers of Islam however I fail to see why this would be so. This is because Islam's most authentic Hadith's show her age to be 6 at the time of marriage and 8 years 9 months (Islamic lunar calendar) at its consummation and so if this is mainstream Islamic theology then I see no reason for sensitivity around this topic.
When we turn to Muhhamd's marriage to Aisha - a commonly encountered explanation Moslems will use to explain away her tender age is that apparently grown men taking child brides was normal in the 7th Century and so Muhammad was simply a man of his time i.e. he was merely partaking in the standard rituals of the period in which he lived. Well, needless to say this clarification is quite unsatisfactory because it is completely at odds with the claim made that Muhammad is the perfect example to be followed for ALL times.
See - we are not talking about a normal man being governed by cultural norms but rather, the claim is that he was someone being divinely guided by God himself, a God who was setting up the genesis of the perfect and final religion which was to be born out of his very actions and the exact words that he said. Thus - comparing the behaviour of a prophet of God to the behaviour of ordinary imperfect men is an argument I simply cannot accept. Prophets of Gods and fallible humans are simply not equivocal.
So - if this was to be the final religion to be followed for eternity then we must ask why would the God of Islam have selected this particular point of human cultural evolution to be the example to be followed for ever? It stands to reason that IF the God of Islam never actually intended this particular odious example of Muhammad to be followed for eternity then why did the God of Islam never produce a verse in the Koran saying exactly this? You would think that the all knowing God would have forseen the problems future Islamic societies would face and so would have made it absolutely certain that he slipped in a clear/specific verse in the book saying exactly this - but the God of Islam didn't.
And sadly we only need to look at what has happened in cultures shaped by Islam to see the consequences of this strange omittence. We especially need to bear this fact in mind because the Koran is said to be perfect, perfectly clear and has all the answers and so surely this means that Moslems who claim this marriage should be viewed within the context of the time it occured are actually only giving their own perspective of things with no specific theology basis to underpin such perspectives. The Koran (or Hadith) doesn't actually tells Moslems to do this because the book is perfect, perfectly clear and perfect for all times - it is the unchangebale word of God. So - looking at it in this way we come to see that Moslems who use these arguments are therefore altering the un-alterable word of God as written in the Koran! They are directly negating exacty what their faith stands for because they say things that the Koran doesn't say.
Taking this further, if we accept the idea of God as our creator then we accept that he does not make mistakes, he knows the answers yesterday, today and tomorrow - God doesn't learn on the job so to speak. Therefore, we surely also must accept that God's morality isn't governed by timelines and so God's notion of right and wrong is infinite. Thus, we must ask ourselves this - if the God of Islam was ok with Muhammad sleeping with a 9 year old girl in 650AD then we can be sure the God of Islam would be ok with him doing the same in 2014. I fail to see how this can be argued with - but I am willing to be wrong.
How do Moslems respond to this? If Moslems wish to support the big claims Islam makes for itself they really do need to start dealing with its very dodgy aspects. I remind you all that a 9 year old girl in 650AD would have been physically more immature than a 9 year old girl of 2014 which lends this troubling aspect of Islam an even more sinister tone.
Safiyah
I am equally curious to examine how the marriage to Muhammad's wife Safiyah is also explained by Moslems. The reason I ask is because the circumstances surrounding it are at complete odds with the idea of consensual marriage. Please correct me if I am wrong but on the day he marries her hadn't he just killed her Father, her Husband and pretty much her entire tribe? Her whole world had just been obliterated by, and on the orders of, one man - thus, I find it hard to believe that a woman would freely marry and sleep with this very man who'd carried this carnage out. And do so on the exact same day these awful events had occurred!
Therefore, after much consideration I feel that unless it can be demonstrated otherwise, the nature of these 2 marriages, which have had serious societal consequences throughout the ages, support my belief that Muhammad could not of been and should never have ever been deemed "the Perfect Man" nor should the God of Allah be so worthy of such respect. It is clear that the God of Islam and its prophet were co-conspirators in child abuse and the rape and forced marriage of a woman. It cannot be seen in any other way.
Aisha
I realise that in the case of Aisha, her age is apparently an increasingly contentious issue for followers of Islam however I fail to see why this would be so. This is because Islam's most authentic Hadith's show her age to be 6 at the time of marriage and 8 years 9 months (Islamic lunar calendar) at its consummation and so if this is mainstream Islamic theology then I see no reason for sensitivity around this topic.
When we turn to Muhhamd's marriage to Aisha - a commonly encountered explanation Moslems will use to explain away her tender age is that apparently grown men taking child brides was normal in the 7th Century and so Muhammad was simply a man of his time i.e. he was merely partaking in the standard rituals of the period in which he lived. Well, needless to say this clarification is quite unsatisfactory because it is completely at odds with the claim made that Muhammad is the perfect example to be followed for ALL times.
See - we are not talking about a normal man being governed by cultural norms but rather, the claim is that he was someone being divinely guided by God himself, a God who was setting up the genesis of the perfect and final religion which was to be born out of his very actions and the exact words that he said. Thus - comparing the behaviour of a prophet of God to the behaviour of ordinary imperfect men is an argument I simply cannot accept. Prophets of Gods and fallible humans are simply not equivocal.
So - if this was to be the final religion to be followed for eternity then we must ask why would the God of Islam have selected this particular point of human cultural evolution to be the example to be followed for ever? It stands to reason that IF the God of Islam never actually intended this particular odious example of Muhammad to be followed for eternity then why did the God of Islam never produce a verse in the Koran saying exactly this? You would think that the all knowing God would have forseen the problems future Islamic societies would face and so would have made it absolutely certain that he slipped in a clear/specific verse in the book saying exactly this - but the God of Islam didn't.
And sadly we only need to look at what has happened in cultures shaped by Islam to see the consequences of this strange omittence. We especially need to bear this fact in mind because the Koran is said to be perfect, perfectly clear and has all the answers and so surely this means that Moslems who claim this marriage should be viewed within the context of the time it occured are actually only giving their own perspective of things with no specific theology basis to underpin such perspectives. The Koran (or Hadith) doesn't actually tells Moslems to do this because the book is perfect, perfectly clear and perfect for all times - it is the unchangebale word of God. So - looking at it in this way we come to see that Moslems who use these arguments are therefore altering the un-alterable word of God as written in the Koran! They are directly negating exacty what their faith stands for because they say things that the Koran doesn't say.
Taking this further, if we accept the idea of God as our creator then we accept that he does not make mistakes, he knows the answers yesterday, today and tomorrow - God doesn't learn on the job so to speak. Therefore, we surely also must accept that God's morality isn't governed by timelines and so God's notion of right and wrong is infinite. Thus, we must ask ourselves this - if the God of Islam was ok with Muhammad sleeping with a 9 year old girl in 650AD then we can be sure the God of Islam would be ok with him doing the same in 2014. I fail to see how this can be argued with - but I am willing to be wrong.
How do Moslems respond to this? If Moslems wish to support the big claims Islam makes for itself they really do need to start dealing with its very dodgy aspects. I remind you all that a 9 year old girl in 650AD would have been physically more immature than a 9 year old girl of 2014 which lends this troubling aspect of Islam an even more sinister tone.
Safiyah
I am equally curious to examine how the marriage to Muhammad's wife Safiyah is also explained by Moslems. The reason I ask is because the circumstances surrounding it are at complete odds with the idea of consensual marriage. Please correct me if I am wrong but on the day he marries her hadn't he just killed her Father, her Husband and pretty much her entire tribe? Her whole world had just been obliterated by, and on the orders of, one man - thus, I find it hard to believe that a woman would freely marry and sleep with this very man who'd carried this carnage out. And do so on the exact same day these awful events had occurred!
Therefore, after much consideration I feel that unless it can be demonstrated otherwise, the nature of these 2 marriages, which have had serious societal consequences throughout the ages, support my belief that Muhammad could not of been and should never have ever been deemed "the Perfect Man" nor should the God of Allah be so worthy of such respect. It is clear that the God of Islam and its prophet were co-conspirators in child abuse and the rape and forced marriage of a woman. It cannot be seen in any other way.
