Moses' new prophet

[Comet]

I know you didn't post there, it just seemed it my drug-induced state(i'm on prescrption drugs that aren't reacting too well right now) that you called Mr. Emu's comment the only Christian perspective, correct me if I'm wrong.

I just did "correct" you. Though it wasn't correcting as you don't need it. It was merely letting you in on the meaning of what I was saying

"SOME WOULD SAY" didn't refer to me in the slightest. I was merely making a referecne to an off-topic issue that I've seen on this forum and in life many times.

That is all. I would say that the first Christian perspective was yours, since you answered first and are LDS. Hope that clears it up for you even with medication! (Get better by-the-way)


**** For the sake of debate though******

I think you, Mr. Emu, and Gnostic are wrong. It is Elijah. I can't agrue with a monkey, so I'll just respect MidnightBlue's opinion as I tend to agree with that more than my stance on this debate :foot:

 

[Bishka]

I'm not sure if I've stated this, but I believe that prophecy could have been any number of people, or even all of them.

 

[Comet]

I'm not sure if I've stated this, but I believe that prophecy could have been any number of people, or even all of them.

If you believe all of them to be prophets, then why jump all the way to Jesus to be Moses's promised prophet? Why not say Jesus was John the Baptits' promised prophet? Like the line of succession to King David.... why not a long succession of GREAT Prophets?

I used GREAT just to differinciate between prophets and "chosen" prophets. Does Elijah not meet all the requirements in the stated verses of the OP? Who else does that came before? Still waiting to see the examples made relevant to the OP from the chosen book.............

Anyone?

 

[gnostic]

The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet from among your own people, like myself...

It seemed that Moses is saying that God would choose among them, those who are standing there before Moses, that's why I chose Joshua, instead of the others.

And I don't see what it was written (Deut 18:15) as a prophecy. Jeremiah and Ezekial is too far in the future.

As to your stance about earlier chapter on the kings. It is an instruction on how the king will be chosen, not a prophecy. The first verse, also states that only after the land was occupied and settle, can any king be chosen, and it seemed to be still a setting that the land was not yet occupied by the Israelites.

 

[Comet]

If you read the whole of chapter 18, I believed that both he (Moses) and God have been suggesting the successor, who will lead the people into Canaan, since they were still living in the wilderness.

After all, the whole theme of the Torah or Pentateuch (the 1st five books of the OT) was to promise Abraham (and Isaac and Jacob in the Genesis) a home for his people.

I certainly don't believe it is John the Baptist, Jesus or Muhammad (as the Muslims believe). But the passages are open to wide interpretation, so it is understandable why some Christians and Muslims would use these passages and stretch it to mean something else to promote their religions. Moses' new prophet seemed to be open to wide interpretation, and I am afraid that both Christians and Muslims exploited this outrageously when they quote his passages.

I am great believer in taking the whole Torah into consideration. And not just on those small passages alone.

So what was God promise to Abraham?

He was Promised Land for his (Abraham's) future generations to call home. This was why (and the whole purpose of) freeing the Israelites from slavery in Egypt in the Exodus. The promise wasn't fulfilled yet, because Moses was meant to lead them into Canaan; that job was left on Joshua's shoulder.

Moses has never spoken of any reward for the believers, except the promise of land for the Israelites, not heaven or paradise. The whole theme of the Torah is covenant about the land, so the promise of new prophets promising more than just the land (Canaan) of their forefathers (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) - of "what was yet to come" that the NT presents - a heavenly kingdom - or even from Muhammad and his version of Paradise, seemed too far-fetched to me.

I believe that the new prophet that was promised by Moses to the Israelites was meant to be his successor - Joshua, and not some future prophets like Elijah, John the Baptist, Jesus, Muhammad or Joseph Smith.


That's the reason why I chose Joshua, instead of any others.

That make Joshua a LEADER not a PROPHET....... how is he a prophet?

 

[Bishka]

If you believe all of them to be prophets, then why jump all the way to Jesus to be Moses's promised prophet? Why not say Jesus was John the Baptits' promised prophet? Like the line of succession to King David.... why not a long succession of GREAT Prophets?

I used GREAT just to differinciate between prophets and "chosen" prophets. Does Elijah not meet all the requirements in the stated verses of the OP? Who else does that came before? Still waiting to see the examples made relevant to the OP from the chosen book.............

Anyone?

I never said that Jesus was Moses's promised prophet. I believe Jesus was much more then a prophet.

John the Baptist did prophesy of Jesus Christ though. Elijah probably does meet those requirements, as Joshua could have, and many others.

 

[Comet]

The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet from among your own people, like myself...

Will raise up - will, not HAS

A prophet - not a leader

Then read the whole passage you set forth in this debate..... name another who meets those requirements till Elijah came along.

 

[Bishka]

The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet from among your own people, like myself...

Will raise up - will, not HAS

A prophet - not a leader

Then read the whole passage you set forth in this debate..... name another who meets those requirements till Elijah came along.

1) Joshua was after Moses, so he is just fine for the running, and He was considered a prophet.

2) Jesus could also be considered a 'prophet' so-to-speak

3) I didn't start this debate, neither did I give a passage of scripture, I was just quoting scripture that had already been used in the debate/discussioin.

 

[Comet]

I never said that Jesus was Moses's promised prophet.

Did you vote in this poll? If you did, you voted for Jesus.... thus you have stated so for the purpose of this debate.

I believe Jesus was much more then a prophet.

Not relavent to the OP and debate (no offense)

John the Baptist did prophesy of Jesus Christ though.

Yes.....

Elijah probably does meet those requirements

Show me where he doesn't....

as Joshua could have, and many others

Could have is not a good stance in a debate....... does is.

 

[Bishka]

Did you vote in this poll? If you did, you voted for Jesus.... thus you have stated so for the purpose of this debate.

No, I have not voted in the poll and you would know that if you read one of my first posts. I said that there should be a "All of the prophets" or something similar to that choice. I've never voted, because I don't feel that there is an answer that applies to how I feel.

Show me where he doesn't....

Why are you getting so defensive? I never said that Elijah did not meet the requirements, and I've also stated, that I believe that, that certain prophecy could be referring to ALL the prophets.

Could have is not a good stance in a debate....... does is.

In this debate yes, it does work, because nowhere does the prophecy explicity state that it is Joshua or Elijah or Haggai or Malachi or Jesus Christ or John the Baptist or Joseph Smith or whoever else....It could be Joshua, it could be Elijah, it could be Haggai, it could be Malachi, it could be Jesus Christ, it could be John the Baptist and it could be Joseph Smith--we don't know, so could be is a perfectly fine way to answer it.

 

[Comet]

1) Joshua was after Moses, so he is just fine for the running, and He was considered a prophet.

2) Jesus could also be considered a 'prophet' so-to-speak

3) I didn't start this debate, neither did I give a passage of scripture, I was just quoting scripture that had already been used in the debate/discussioin.

Sorry beckysoup, what you replied to was directed at Gnotic. I'm sure you've seen what I directed at you now. Posting at the same time makes it difficult!

What did Joshua do that was as a prophet? Please tell me and back gnostic on this.
How does Joshua meet everything set out in the passage gnostic set this debate on?

#2 just destroyed your stance of your answer (if that is what you voted for in the poll)

#3 I know. I am just debating, it is good to give practice to all. Even if only a reminder to be able to back up your answers with "proof".


Please keep in mind this is only my 4th debate I've gotten into here. ha ha ha..... only got 1/2 way tore up once, but saved face for "opinionality". I am glad to admit when another has shown me something for me to think otherwise, but in this thread I am still waiting.........

 

[Smoke]

I can't agrue with a monkey, so I'll just respect MidnightBlue's opinion

Ahem! I am not a monkey. I am, at the moment, a Bonobo -- the, um, "friendliest" of the great apes. However, I've already made a new avatar from a pic Becky uploaded earlier:

View attachment squirrels-b.jpg

It's just that I've grown fond of my Bonobo, and I don't know if I'm ready to give him up.

It seemed that Moses is saying that God would choose among them, those who are standing there before Moses, that's why I chose Joshua, instead of the others.

You're reading too much into it. There's no more reason the prophet would come from those people standing right there than the king or the temple staff would.

And I don't see what it was written (Deut 18:15) as a prophecy. Jeremiah and Ezekial is too far in the future.

Well, by your reading it's the future either way; it's just a question of how far. I think it was intended to be read as a prophecy; the Deuteronomist probably had no compunction at all about putting something he believed to be so important into the mouth of Moses.

As to your stance about earlier chapter on the kings. It is an instruction on how the king will be chosen, not a prophecy. The first verse, also states that only after the land was occupied and settle, can any king be chosen, and it seemed to be still a setting that the land was not yet occupied by the Israelites.

Well, exactly. The discourse freely refers to times after the land was occupied and settled, so it cannot possibly be about "getting the Israelites into the Promised Land." Also, if Moses was instructing the Israelites to choose a king after they got settled, you have to notice that they certainly took their time about it. And why would God have told them to choose a king, and then got his feelings hurt when they did?

And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us.
​

Granted, the discourse is set in the time of Moses, but you're taking the setting way too seriously. The Deuteronomist wasn't trying to write history, he was trying to convey important ideas.


​

 

[Comet]

No, I have not voted in the poll and you would know that if you read one of my first posts. I said that there should be a "All of the prophets" or something similar to that choice. I've never voted, because I don't feel that there is an answer that applies to how I feel.

Thank you, and I apologize to you. (though I did say "if") Also, you replied before the poll came up if I do recall.... and Jesus I think was in your first response..... I jumped to conclusions of you and apologize again. Please forgive me for that.

Why are you getting so defensive? I never said that Elijah did not meet the requirements, and I've also stated, that I believe that, that certain prophecy could be referring to ALL the prophets.

It is not I that am getting defensive, I merely asked for somebody to show me how Elijah doesn't meet the requirements........ (still waiting)

In this debate yes, it does work, because nowhere does the prophecy explicity state that it is Joshua or Elijah or Haggai or Malachi or Jesus Christ or John the Baptist or Joseph Smith or whoever else....It could be Joshua, it could be Elijah, it could be Haggai, it could be Malachi, it could be Jesus Christ, it could be John the Baptist and it could be Joseph Smith--we don't know, so could be is a perfectly fine way to answer it.

Yes, it "could be" any number of people. The poll and debate is to who you think it IS. So to answer that it could be anybody is not to answer the poll question. You haven't answered and I respect that 100% :bow: and respect the reasons you haven't answered. So, I guess I am only trying to sway you to vote for Elijah. The question is clear: Who was Moses speaking of?

To those that have answered, I am wanting a response with backing to it against my points.

 

[Bishka]

What did Joshua do that was as a prophet?

Deut. 31:4 (KJV)


14

And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thy days approach that thou must die: call Joshua, and present yourselves in the tabernacleof the congregation, that I may give him a charge. And Moses and Joshua went, and presented themselves in the tabernacle of the congregation

Moses was a prophet, correct? Then the Lord told Moses to call Joshua as the next prophet.

Also these verses:

But charge Joshua, and encourage him, and strengthen him: for he shall go over before this people, and he shall cause them to inherit the land which thou shalt see.

And he gave Joshua the son of Nun a charge, and said, Be strong and of a good courage: for thou shalt bring the children of Israel into the land which I sware unto them: and I will be with thee

And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the LORD commanded Moses.

just destroyed your stance of your answer (if that is what you voted for in the poll)

I've already said, I never voted in the poll, I've given my answer why several times.

 

[Bishka]

The question is clear: Who was Moses speaking of?

.

Exactly. We do not know, and probably won't know for some time.

Jewish commentary on this states (Chumash)

From you midst, from you brethren like me. Moses told the nation that just as he was one of them, so God would designate future prophets from among the people to bring them to his word. From your midst implies that prophecy would be limited to Ertez Yisrael (and even those, such as Ezekiel, who prophesied else where, had begun to prophecy in the Land), and from you brethren implies that God would let his spirit rest only upon members of Israel.

Remember this is Jewish commentary...I feel a bit different about it, but just giving a source.

 

[Comet]

Deut. 31:4 (KJV)


14

Moses was a prophet, correct? Then the Lord told Moses to call Joshua as the next prophet.

Also these verses:

Even in the verses you list.... where is Joshua a prophet or do anything prophetic? Your first verse says that God will go and destroy the enemies before the people go there and that Joshua shall be the "head". Thus, a leader.... not a prophet. (As is my stance with gnostic). Elijah himself went WITH the word of God and struck down Baal's followers,etc..... Joshua?
(Websters)
Main Entry: proph·et
Pronunciation: 'prä-f&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English prophete, from Old French, from Latin propheta, from Greek prophEtEs, from pro for + phanai to speak -- more at [SIZE=-1]FOR[/SIZE], [SIZE=-1]BAN[/SIZE]
1 : one who utters divinely inspired revelations; specifically often capitalized : the writer of one of the prophetic books of the Old Testament
2 : one gifted with more than ordinary spiritual and moral insight; especially : an inspired poet
3 : one who foretells future events : [SIZE=-1]PREDICTOR[/SIZE]
4 : an effective or leading spokesman for a cause, doctrine, or group
5 Christian Science a : a spiritual seer b : disappearance of material sense before the conscious facts of spiritual Truth


Moses a prophet, sure. Not rellevant, but okay. Just since he gives over leadership of the people (as the verses you quoted) doesn't make him a prophet. It makes him a leader.

Where does Joshua do what is set forth as the criteria of this debate? Deuteronony 18.

I have listed the passages that make Elijah fit all those and he falls before Jesus and many other options. So who was Moses speaking of? Who is the first to meet all the criteria in this passage?

Elijah!

 

[Comet]

Exactly. We do not know, and probably won't know for some time.

Jewish commentary on this states (Chumash)

From you midst, from you brethren like me. Moses told the nation that just as he was one of them, so God would designate future prophets from among the people to bring them to his word.

"like me" spoken by Moses.....

Matthew 17 1-4

I believe there is another passage in Luke somewhere that makes reference to Moses-Elijah-Jesus.........

(thank you for the passages, I learn so much from others who know more than I on a subject)

 

[Bishka]

If you want to know the LDS standpoint on it here you go. It is taken from the Old Testament student manual.

Deut 18:15-19. Who Is the Prophet Like unto Moses?

At least four other scriptures refer to the prophet like unto Moses--see

Acts 3:22-23

22. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

1 Nephi 22:21

21. And now I, Nephi, declare unto you, that this prophet of whom Moses spake was the Holy One of Israel; wherefore, he shall execute judgement in righteousness.

3 Nephi 20:23

23.Behold, I am he of whom Moses spake, saying: A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass that every soul who will not hear that prophet shall be cut off from among the people.

Joseph Smith-History 1:40

40. In addition to these, he quoted the eleventh chapter of Isaiah, saying that it was about to be fulfilled. He quoted also the third chapter of Acts, twenty-second and twenty-third verses, precisely as they stand in our New Testament. He said that that prophet was Christ; but the day had not yet come when “they who would not hear his voice should be off from among the people,” but soon would come.

In each instance these scripture make it clear that the prophet like unto Moses was the Savior, Jesus Christ. When Jesus visited the Nephites, as recorded in the Book of Mormon, He identified Himself in this way:

Behold, I am he of whom Moses spake, saying: A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass that every soul who will not hear that prophet shall be cut off from among the people.

*REMEMBER LDS VIEWPOINT**

 

[Comet]

Deut 18-

Moses says "another like me". Who has come even close to being like Moses in the history of the Bible? Jesus, okay - I can see that. Yet, was Elijah not even more similar and closer to the time of Moses than Jesus?

Still, I ask for my points to be put down to another on the list. (pehaps another not listed) Or for somebody to deny my points on Elijah before another listed!

 

[Bishka]

Even in the verses you list.... where is Joshua a prophet or do anything prophetic? Your first verse says that God will go and destroy the enemies before the people go there and that Joshua shall be the "head". Thus, a leader.... not a prophet. (As is my stance with gnostic). Elijah himself went WITH the word of God and struck down Baal's followers,etc..... Joshua?
(Websters)
Main Entry: proph·et
Pronunciation: 'prä-f&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English prophete, from Old French, from Latin propheta, from Greek prophEtEs, from pro for + phanai to speak -- more at [SIZE=-1]FOR[/SIZE], [SIZE=-1]BAN[/SIZE]
1 : one who utters divinely inspired revelations; specifically often capitalized : the writer of one of the prophetic books of the Old Testament
2 : one gifted with more than ordinary spiritual and moral insight; especially : an inspired poet
3 : one who foretells future events : [SIZE=-1]PREDICTOR[/SIZE]
4 : an effective or leading spokesman for a cause, doctrine, or group
5 Christian Science a : a spiritual seer b : disappearance of material sense before the conscious facts of spiritual Truth


Moses a prophet, sure. Not rellevant, but okay. Just since he gives over leadership of the people (as the verses you quoted) doesn't make him a prophet. It makes him a leader.

Where does Joshua do what is set forth as the criteria of this debate? Deuteronony 18.

I have listed the passages that make Elijah fit all those and he falls before Jesus and many other options. So who was Moses speaking of? Who is the first to meet all the criteria in this passage?

Elijah!

Deut 31:4 would be a great verse to read over. Usually when people are presented in the tabernacle it is for a preisthood purpose or some kind of calling. One could assume since Joshua was called to the tabernacle and given a charge, that, that charge was to be the Prophet for the people.

If you also read Deut. 34:9, it says that Moses laid his hands about Joshua, which usually means a transferrence of power and authority, which, in my opinion, is a prophet.