Mormon Temples - Sacred or Secret?

[DallasApple]

Perhaps. It doesn't really matter what we call it. This isn't a court of law, after all. The result is that something is made public without permission from the party that explicitely asked that it be kept private.

Im just thinking..it does matter what you call it..a "violation of privacy" is a serious matter.And there are laws to protect individuals because of how fundameantl of a right it is.

Some thing(in general) ..being made public in a fictional example that is non specific to anyones individual life is not a "violation of privacy".

It just isnt..Maybe a new law needs to be written..Called "violation of secrecy".

And another thing I would consider..Is its not a problem with "outsiders trying to get in" to "violate your privacy"..Its insiders that left..And have no problem telling the "secrets".

If its that private? ...You should never trust anyone but you and God.That is if you want a gaurantee of "privacy".(and secrecy)...

If its "oraganized"...it will get out..eventually..

Love

Dallas

 

[Watchmen]

Katzpur already said she's not talking about the law. Perhaps it's a moral right to privacy???

 

[Katzpur]

Is there any example that you can correlate to that represents this type of sacred nature your attempting to assign to a ceremony you weren't in that featured actors and was on HBO?

No there isn't. There is nothing outside of the temple endowment ceremony that can compare to anything else in life, so I wouldn't even bother trying to find an analogy elsewhere.

I think it is interesting that you feel that this show has gone out of their way to offend mormons. Interesting. Haven't you followed the show since the first episode?

Big Love has been my favorite show since it first aired. Unfortunately, I no longer have access to HBO and haven't seen the last three or four episodes.

Even if you have not there is nothing that forces you to watch it. Southpark and Family Guy go out of their way to offend everyone. They're great at it. And its funny. I do not see that Big Love had the same intent or is the same kind of show.

Satire is supposed to offend. That's how it get's people thinking. Big Love didn't satirize the temple ceremony, so it did not offend in the same way.

Bill disagrees with you as do I. It was not intended to offend. He talks about the endowment ceremony and the controversy briefly.
http://beta.sling.com/video/show/130554/08/Bill-Paxton's-'Big-Love'

You know, that reminds me of a "friend" (I use the word very loosely) I once had. She had a very unpleasant habit of coming up to me and saying, "No offense but..." and then saying something very offensive like, "your daughter sure is ugly." When someone admits that they know that something they are about to do is going to offend someone else and then goes ahead and does it anyway, I'd say the point is to offend.

 

[Sententia]

And how about Tom Hanks?

Tom hanks does not write the show or act in it. (That I know of) He is an executive producer. He used to be a mormon though. I believe he primarily handles the business aspect of production for big love. He is a big figure though who can easily be demonized to say see... tom hanks is making a mockery of mormonism, with big love... But I would see that as untrue.

Most films steer clear of religion for fear of offending people. I find that helps make the films that do get made much more accurate with a special attention to detail.

 

[Katzpur]

Tom hanks does not write the show or act in it. (That I know of) He is an executive producer. He used to be a mormon though.

Yes, for a brief time when he was growing up.

Most films steer clear of religion for fear of offending people.

Can you back that statement up? Most filmmakers could care less who they offend, and you know that as well as I do.

 

[blackout]

No there isn't. There is nothing outside of the temple endowment ceremony that can compare to anything else in life, so I wouldn't even bother trying to find an analogy elsewhere.

I'm quite sure that members of the Temple of Set,
or higher level Freemasonry,
or Bohemian Grove (ex. Cremation of Care),
or even Bilderberg invitees...

...all feel that nothing could compare
to the importance of their own rites/rights and purposes.
I think these groups are all comparable to the Mormons in this respect.

As well... the private meetings of any group...
be it family circle, coven, or (any)"upper management",
COULD be compared...
if what happened there were "leaked" out to the general public.
(by anyone there)

EVERYONE feels their secret "rites/rights" are of incomparable importance.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm quite sure that members of the Temple of Set,
or higher level Freemasonry,
or Bohemian Grove (ex. Cremation of Care),
or even Bilderberg invitees...

...all feel that nothing could compare to the importance of their own rites and purposes.
I think these things are all comparable in this respect.

As well... the private meetings of any group...
be it family circle, coven, or (any)"upper management",
COULD be compared...
if what happened there were "leaked" out to the general public.
(by anyone there)

EVERYONE feels their secret "rites/rights" are of incomparable importance.

My feelings were that BalanceFx was asking me to draw an analogy from my own experience that I could compare to temple worship. I was stating that I couldn't. I agree that everyone fells their secret rites are of incomparable importance. And they are. To them. Any kind of spiritual experience is subjective and personal, so my intent was not to say that mine are superior, more valid or of greater importance than the next person's. I was just saying that I don't have any other experience that to me can compare to the temple endowment.

 

[Sententia]

Can you back that statement up? Most filmmakers could care less who they offend, and you know that as well as I do.

Its not neccesary to make my point but even just in terms of volume I think it could easily be shown. Quite the negative view you have of filmmakers though. (Whatever that means...) Realistically we have scripts, writers, actors etc but its those filmmakers who dont care who they offend.

I could imagine similar arguments against painters in days of olde. For some reason I am thinking of the movie footloose as well.

When everything these filmmakers do is offensive to you it begs the question why. Do they really not care who they offend or are some people just overly sensitive and easily offended?

As I said. You can't please everyone.

 

[Smoke]

Do they really not care who they offend or are some people just overly sensitive and easily offended?

True believers are notoriously sensitive and easily offended. However, regardless of how overly sensitive I might believe them to be, I don't see anything wrong with their making it clear exactly what offends them -- provided they aren't trying to censor the free speech of others, or storming the Danish consulate.

 

[Watchmen]

Easily offended? No. We're talking about our most sacred practice.

 

[Katzpur]

As I said. You can't please everyone.

This is true. And since the producers, writers, production staff and cast (I hope I've given all of the "film makers" credit where credit is due) have undoubtedly pleased the individuals they wanted to please, I'm starting to think that this conversation has reached an impasse. We're offended. You don't think we should be. Is there really anything more to be said?

 

[RemnanteK]

What if some day down the line the US takes the right away to preform closed ceremonies?

Would they still be Sacred?

I know we live in a 'free' country, but every day I see more and more sheep giving our rights away.

"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine" ~Thomas Jefferson

What do we do when 51% of the voters give away our right to worship and gather as we please?

This is something I will fight for no mater what religions it effects.

 

[Smoke]

"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine" ~Thomas Jefferson

In some states, it takes more than 51%.

What do we do when 51% of the voters give away our right to worship and gather as we please?

This is something I will fight for no mater what religions it effects.

Start now. Fight to overturn Prop 8.

 

[misanthropic_clown]

I've been thinking about this for a little while now, and I am actually quite surprised by some of the reactions to this issue.

The LDS temple ceremonies are something we hold to be very sacred, indeed the most sacred thing we have. We might not be afforded the protection of some sort of intellectual property rights that other organisations rely upon, but there can be no doubt just where the 'ownership' of the temple ceremonies lie.

It is my firm view that it should be up to the organisation to choose as to whether or not their practices are to be published. The LDS church has elected not to publish any part of these temple ceremonies for public consideration. I do not see where the morality lies in any individual or group stepping in to put this information on display for all, especially against the will of the organisation in question.

Maybe there could be some justification for public interest if it were revealed that the practices were dangerous or illegal, but the temple ceremonies are neither. I fail to see what other reason for publication could fill in the threshold to justify putting this on display.

The message is simple. We have not given them to you. They are a priveledge afforded to those who are spiritually worthy to undertake them. Thus they are not yours to have by right of your own curiosity. Leave them be.

 

[Smoke]

It is my firm view that it should be up to the organisation to choose as to whether or not their practices are to be published. The LDS church has elected not to publish any part of these temple ceremonies for public consideration. I do not see where the morality lies in any individual or group stepping in to put this information on display for all, especially against the will of the organisation in question.

Maybe there could be some justification for public interest if it were revealed that the practices were dangerous or illegal, but the temple ceremonies are neither. I fail to see what other reason for publication could fill in the threshold to justify putting this on display.

The message is simple. We have not given them to you. They are a priveledge afforded to those who are spiritually worthy to undertake them. Thus they are not yours to have by right of your own curiosity. Leave them be.

Well, sadly, you have given them to those who then turned around and revealed them to the world, and it's perfectly legal for them to have done so. Even if you hadn't freely revealed them to these people who later violated your confidence -- if, say, some investigative reporter had ferreted them out -- there wouldn't be anything illegal about reporting them, dramatizing them, or even mocking them. They're well within their rights.

However, I agree that it's dishonorable and unethical of them to exercise those rights.

Do you think Exmos tend to become embittered by the way the church deals with them? Do you think it's possible that temple recommends may be too easy to get in the first place?

BTW, I love the sig. Kiva is great idea.

 

[misanthropic_clown]

Well, sadly, you have given them to those who then turned around and revealed them to the world, and it's perfectly legal for them to have done so. Even if you hadn't freely revealed them to these people who later violated your confidence -- if, say, some investigative reporter had ferreted them out -- there wouldn't be anything illegal about reporting them, dramatizing them, or even mocking them. They're well within their rights.

However, I agree that it's dishonorable and unethical of them to exercise those rights.

Do you think Exmos tend to become embittered by the way the church deals with them? Do you think it's possible that temple recommends may be too easy to get in the first place?

BTW, I love the sig. Kiva is great idea.

It's true that Exmos tend to be the source of the information about temple ceremonies, but obviously the audience reading through them generally do so out of curiosity. I obviously consider the Exmos laying it all out more contemptuous than the onlookers, but the onlookers are also guilty of some level of disrespect (though that ultimately depends on how much they know about what the temple ceremonies mean to members of our church).

I think the Exmos doing that tends to result from bitterness, but I think that can stem from disillusionment with the church as much as the way in which the church deals with their departure. I don't think the church can do much with regards to making sure the members who go into the temple have genuine intentions, but I know over here the temple reccommends are now getting barcodes so that they have electronic verification which would be able to prevent members who have left the church from getting in, or people using lost or stolen reccommends to gain access since you can report the reccommend as missing or invalid and thus get it disabled.

And thanks, it is a pretty nifty idea, to continue some sort of subtle in-post advertising \/ clicky clicky \/

 

[Reverend Rick]

I don't know what you all do, but I do see how you conduct your lives outside the temple. Based on what I can see, if the government ever tried to control your religion, I would fight along side you all to protect your rights. :yes: In a heart beat, no questions asked.

 

[Katzpur]

Do you think Exmos tend to become embittered by the way the church deals with them?

IMO, it's not the way the Church "deals with" the ex-Mos that's the problem. Church courts are always very private. Whenever you hear about someone who got ex-communicated, it's ALWAYS the person who has chosen to speak out and NEVER the Church. So the circumstances are always going to be explained from the ex-Mo's point of view. The Church will never even issue a statement saying, "Hey, wait just a minute! That's not how it happened!" Most ex-Mos who leave the Church voluntarily do so either because they have simply stopped believing in the doctrines, in which case the split is made fairly amiably, or because of some perceived affront, in which case there is bitterness and hostility. This second group, along with those who have been excommunicated, feel justified in trying to get back at the Church (and it's usually not even the Church, per se, but at a bishop or a stake president or maybe even the better part of their congregation) by going on the offensive and doing everything they possibly can to get even. What better way could they possibly do this than by revealing the details of the ceremonies they once swore to keep sacred forever?

Do you think it's possible that temple recommends may be too easy to get in the first place?

Not really. While I think that pretty much any Latter-day Saint who really wants to go to the temple can fulfill this goal fairly easily, those who aren't pretty committed will have a difficult time with certain commandments -- particularly living the Word of Wisdom (our health code) and paying a full tithing. Of course anybody could lie and say they are living the commandments when they're really not, but I really don't think that happens very often. Members of the Church generally want to go to the temple because they want the blessings they'll receive from going. They know darned well that if they lie to get in, it's not going to do them any good at all.

 

[J Bryson]

I don't know what you all do, but I do see how you conduct your lives outside the temple. Based on what I can see, if the government ever tried to control your religion, I would fight along side you all to protect your rights. :yes: In a heart beat, no questions asked.

Despite certain recent political issues, I would be right beside you.

 

[RemnanteK]

I think God despises acts such as; trying to save ourselves (Pride), taking the glory he gives away and/or giving it to another, and not letting his people worship him.

When the day comes that we can no longer freely praise and give glory to God, I will know the end is near. :yes: Amen to that.