Mormon sex therapist faces discipline and possible expulsion from the LDS Church

[Fallen Prophet]

Yeah, it actually does.

Nope - because any and all of those "benefits" could be had by having actual sex with an actual person.

So - it is not the masturbation - but the orgasm - that achieves those "benefits".

It is a need.

If you can go your entire life without having sex - it is not a need.

Wrong again. Masturbation is a form of sexual activity.

"Form of sexual activity" is not sex. It's not. That's not how it works.

This is why its so sad. You and other people are alone abusing yourselves and all the while you are thinking that you are having sex.

Having a fulfilling experience - but you aren't. It's empty and sad.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Nope - because any and all of those "benefits" could be had by having actual sex with an actual person.

Yeah, but they still come from masturbation.
You can't separate them just because you want to.

If you can go your entire life without having sex - it is not a need.

You can your entire life without having contact with another human, but it is extremely destructive to physical and mental health.
It's also not healthy to go without sex.

"Form of sexual activity" is not sex. It's not. That's not how it works.

This is why its so sad. You and other people are alone abusing yourselves and all the while you are thinking that you are having sex.

Having a fulfilling experience - but you aren't. It's empty and sad.

Sexual repression is what's empty and sad.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Yeah, but they still come from masturbation.

Nope. They come from having an orgasm.

If you have an orgasm with your spouse - you are building upon your relationship or procreating.

When you do it by yourself - you are not building or making anything. It's empty.

It's like sexual fast food. You don't need it. It's addictive. And it hurts you.

You can't separate them just because you want to.

You are making no sense.

Would masturbation have all of these benefits if there was no climax?

It is the climax the produces these benefits.

It's the difference between having an actual relationship or living a delusion.

The Matrix stimulated their brains to make them think they were living real life - but they weren't.

You are tricking yourself when you abuse yourself.

You can your entire life without having contact with another human, but it is extremely destructive to physical and mental health.
It's also not healthy to go without sex.

You are shifting the goal posts.

I never said that people should live without sex - they definitely should.

This desire should cause people to go out and meet their potential mate - rather than sitting alone in the dark playing with themselves.

Sexual repression is what's empty and sad.

I agree - which is why I advocate love and marriage.

You are not having sex when you are by yourself. That isn't real.

That is actual repression - because you are preventing yourself from having real experiences. Real relationships.

It's empty and sad - not to mention gross.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Nope. They come from having an orgasm.

If you have an orgasm with your spouse - you are building upon your relationship or procreating.

When you do it by yourself - you are not building or making anything. It's empty.

It's like sexual fast food. You don't need it. It's addictive. And it hurts you.

You are making no sense.

Would masturbation have all of these benefits if there was no climax?

It is the climax the produces these benefits.

It's the difference between having an actual relationship or living a delusion.

The Matrix stimulated their brains to make them think they were living real life - but they weren't.

You are tricking yourself when you abuse yourself.

You are shifting the goal posts.

I never said that people should live without sex - they definitely should.

This desire should cause people to go out and meet their potential mate - rather than sitting alone in the dark playing with themselves.

I agree - which is why I advocate love and marriage.

You are not having sex when you are by yourself. That isn't real.

That is actual repression - because you are preventing yourself from having real experiences. Real relationships.

It's empty and sad - not to mention gross.

Your assumptions and hangups are gross. Abuse? Empty? Preventing myself?
Do you know some people masturbate with their spouse?

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Your assumptions and hangups are gross. Abuse? Empty? Preventing myself?
Do you know some people masturbate with their spouse?

That's great. Do whatever you want - as long as it is with your spouse.

It's kinda like feeling free to eat fast food if you are already in great shape. Go for it.

But an obese person should not do it. Like how a single person should not masturbate. It's only hurting you.

Just remember that masturbation - even with your spouse - isn't sex.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Like how a single person should not masturbate. It's only hurting you.

Yeah, I've already posted several sources showing that's just not the case.
And, even if you're in great shape fast food should be eaten sparingly. Some nutritionists would say it has no place in a healthy diet.

Just remember that masturbation - even with your spouse - isn't sex.

It's not a sexual activity with a partner, but it's still a sexual act.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Yeah, I've already posted several sources showing that's just not the case.

Yes - I know - yet not every "expert" agrees/

And, even if you're in great shape fast food should be eaten sparingly. Some nutritionists would say it has no place in a healthy diet.

I'm glad you said "some" would - acknowledging that not all "experts" are in agreement over every issue.

Masturbation is the fast food of "sexual acts" - what does that tell you about how it should be viewed?

It's not a sexual activity with a partner, but it's still a sexual act.

A sexual act is not necessarily sex itself.

Not all sexual acts are created equal.

 

[Watchmen]

No - you have not pointed out anyone's flaw - except your inability to discern a simple difference in opinion.

It has not been proven by any measure that masturbation is a good or healthy thing to do - you have not proven any "flaws".

The Mormon have every right to believe that masturbation violates their Law of Chastity an that those who masturbate are unworthy to enter their temple.

It is their temple - so they choose who gets to go into it.

I encourage you to read the study links by Shadow Wolf in post 33.

And as I’ve said before, the Church is free to teach whatever it wants and others are free to criticize.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes - I know - yet not every "expert" agrees

But yet the overwhelming majority do.

Masturbation is the fast food of "sexual acts" - what does that tell you about how it should be viewed?

With a healthier mindset than what you have about it.

A sexual act is not necessarily sex itself.

Not all sexual acts are created equal.

For some people it's good enough.
Human sexuality is weird like that.
Amd, of course, most people start masturbating before they start having sex.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

I encourage you to read the study links by Shadow Wolf in post 33.

And as I’ve said before, the Church is free to teach whatever it wants and others are free to criticize.

You are free to criticize - but you can't claim that someone is lying simply because they disagree with you. That makes no sense.

Nothing that Shadow Wolf shared supported the idea that masturbation was not sinful - which is the issue.

The LDS Church is not disciplining this woman because she was sharing what she believed to be the benefits of masturbation - bur rather that the practice was not sinful.

This violates their doctrine and they have every right to expel her if she is attempting to convert away other members of their church.

She can continue to share her opinion with anyone she wants - even members of their church - but she may have to prepare to do so as an excommunicated Mormon.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

But yet the overwhelming majority do.

Which has nothing to do with the nature of sin.

With a healthier mindset than what you have about it.

Oh?

I believe that people should stop abusing themselves and focus more on obtaining and maintaining a meaningful romantic-sexual relationship with an actual person.

For some people it's good enough.

I know - and that is what I'm claiming is so sad - my message is for them.

Human sexuality is weird like that.

I can attest to this - but as long as it is building something meaningful - and not abusing anyone (including oneself) - then anything and everything is on the table.

Amd, of course, most people start masturbating before they start having sex.

Hah!

Thanks for stating that masturbation is not sex. I like that we are being clear.

I understand that people are curious - especially in their adolescence - but masturbation is stagnation - it grows nothing.

Waste of time and strength.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Which has nothing to do with the nature of sin.

Sin doesn't apply to those who don't believe in it, nor should their lives be made to conform to the expectations of those who do.

I believe that people should stop abusing themselves and focus more on obtaining and maintaining a meaningful romantic-sexual relationship with an actual person.

Masturbation isn't abusing yourself.

I know - and that is what I'm claiming is so sad - my message is for them.

If it's all someone wants I'm not going to insist more is needed. It's not my place.

Thanks for stating that masturbation is not sex. I like that we are being clear.

Masturbation is sex. Of course it's not sex with a person, but it's sex.

it grows nothing.

So? We do things that grow and produce nothing.

Waste of time and strength.

How? I typically do it as I'm going to bed. Not much of either being wasted there.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I agree - which is why I advocate love and marriage.

You are not having sex when you are by yourself. That isn't real.

That is actual repression - because you are preventing yourself from having real experiences. Real relationships.

It's empty and sad - not to mention gross.

Imagine looking up at the sky, having strong belief that an all-knowing, all-powerful deity is out there, and then believing, with all of the problems in the entire universe, that what one does with their body in total privacy would offend or anger said deity.

Such misplaced fixations are a major part of why I consider conservative strains of religion a threat to almost any healthy, free society.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Who cares? If you dislike Mormon teaching then stop being a Mormon.

Strange that it comes from a religion that had practicing and promoting polygamy for decades.

 

[Watchmen]

You are free to criticize - but you can't claim that someone is lying simply because they disagree with you. That makes no sense.

Nothing that Shadow Wolf shared supported the idea that masturbation was not sinful - which is the issue.

The LDS Church is not disciplining this woman because she was sharing what she believed to be the benefits of masturbation - bur rather that the practice was not sinful.

This violates their doctrine and they have every right to expel her if she is attempting to convert away other members of their church.

She can continue to share her opinion with anyone she wants - even members of their church - but she may have to prepare to do so as an excommunicated Mormon.

Who said anything about lying?

 

[Glaurung]

Imagine looking up at the sky, having strong belief that an all-knowing, all-powerful deity is out there, and then believing, with all of the problems in the entire universe, that what one does with their body in total privacy would offend or anger said deity.

I don't find it difficult to imagine that God is more concerned with our conduct (which includes how we use of our bodily faculties) than he is with flaming balls of gas and the rocks that orbit them.

That God cares more about us and our eternal souls than he does about a space (even if mindbogglingly vast) of empty distance, gas and rock destined to pass away.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Who said anything about lying?

Forgive me - you claimed that the Mormon Church was guilty of lying in another thread. Not this one.

I got them confused.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Sin doesn't apply to those who don't believe in it, nor should their lives be made to conform to the expectations of those who do.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Yet this Mormon woman was actively speaking out against the doctrines of her church - not just sharing the supposed physical benefits of masturbation - but that it was not sinful - and she was actively attempting to convert other Mormons to her way of thinking - that masturbation is not sinful.

Whether or not masturbation is or is not actually sinful or beneficial is irrelevant - that woman is subject to discipline by her church and they are within their rights to expel her.

Me sharing my opinion about masturbation is not an attempt to force anything on anyone.

Masturbation isn't abusing yourself.

I believe that it is - especially when it is combined with pornography - which it more than often is.

I believe that those feelings - those "benefits" - were designed to be had between a man and woman who have been legally and lawfully wedded in order to deepen their bond, strengthen their relationship and find comfort.

A husband should believe that his wife is his only source for this amazing gift and blessing - and she him.

It keep marriage strong and stable - which makes it better for their children when they come along - the product of this great gift and blessing.

Masturbation cheapens this act. It desensitizes them. Makes them callous. Gives them unrealistic expectations. Makes the glorious mundane.

If it's all someone wants I'm not going to insist more is needed. It's not my place.

This is kind of a weird thing for you to be saying in my opinion.

I don't believe they want it - I believe that that is just all they have known.

If a child grew up knowing only abuse from their parents - devoid of love and affection - you'd claim that it was not your place to insist that that child needed more?

Even when they become maladjusted adults - repeating the cycle of abuse - you have nothing to say?

I believe this is a very strange thing for you to say.

Masturbation is sex. Of course it's not sex with a person, but it's sex.

No - it's an orgasm - not sex.

You already claimed earlier that people tend to masturbate "before they start having sex" - so you understand that they are not the same.

You just don't want to admit it after I pointed out what you said.

So? We do things that grow and produce nothing.

And that is bad - in my opinion. A form of abuse. Stagnation is death.

How? I typically do it as I'm going to bed. Not much of either being wasted there.

Time and strength better used at building your relationship with your mate.

You're wasting your time and strength.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Imagine looking up at the sky, having strong belief that an all-knowing, all-powerful deity is out there, and then believing, with all of the problems in the entire universe, that what one does with their body in total privacy would offend or anger said deity.

Such misplaced fixations are a major part of why I consider conservative strains of religion a threat to almost any healthy, free society.

God - like any parent - does not want His children waste their potential.

He encourages us to become more like Him - which includes having self-control, self-worth and respecting what is sacred.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yet this Mormon woman was actively speaking out against the doctrines of her church

So? Someone has to. Like how the Mormon's racist policies of the past. Those didn't change themselves with people remaining silent on the issue.

I believe that it is

But you've cited nothing to support this. Believing something doesn't make it so.

This is kind of a weird thing for you to be saying in my opinion.

I don't believe they want it - I believe that that is just all they have known.

Some people have no desire for sexual contact with others. For whatever reason, it's not my place (or care or concern) to tell them they are wrong and insist they have to change.

No - it's an orgasm - not sex.

An orgasm is defined as the pinnacle of sexual sensation/arousal. Am orgasm is a normal part of sex. There are many ways to have one, including masturbation.

And that is bad - in my opinion. A form of abuse. Stagnation is death.

Nah, sometimes its good to just chill and have fun and relax.

Time and strength better used at building your relationship with your mate.

I don't have a mate.

You're wasting your time and strength.

More needless shame and guilt needlessly assigned to such a mundane amd harmless sex act.