Mormon sex therapist faces discipline and possible expulsion from the LDS Church

[Messianic Israelite]

If that's the case then the only people who are religious are Asexual and the like. Amongst the rest it is pretty natural to practice masturbation even if reluctantly.
92% of American men masturbate.

In my opinion.

Hi danieldemol. Good afternoon. I don't know how true that statistic is. All I know is that with Yahshua in our lives we can overcome the fleshly lusts. With the Holy Spirit in our lives, we can live by the Spirit and live a life of perfection, putting to death the fleshly lusts. We all have fleshly lusts, it's all about disciplining the mind to control ourselves. Chr-stians and other religious people struggle partly because they don't have the Holy Spirit. They're deluding themselves by claiming they do have it. Acts 5:32 tells us the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey Him.

 

[danieldemol]

Hi danieldemol. Good afternoon. I don't know how true that statistic is. All I know is that with Yahshua in our lives we can overcome the fleshly lusts. With the Holy Spirit in our lives, we can live by the Spirit and live a life of perfection, putting to death the fleshly lusts. We all have fleshly lusts, it's all about disciplining the mind to control ourselves. Chr-stians and other religious people struggle partly because they don't have the Holy Spirit. They're deluding themselves by claiming they do have it. Acts 5:32 tells us the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey Him.

It is from the world's largest masturbation survey;

World's Largest Masturbation Survey Uncovers How Traditional Views of Masculinity Prevent Men from Having Fulfilling Sex Lives & Relationships

If God created 94% unable to obey and then only conferred the holy spirit upon the asexual and/or those with sexual malfunction etc then God is either unlikely to care about US citizens receiving the holy spirit or if God is going to punish those who dont receive it - simply cruel.

In my opinion.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

It is from the world's largest masturbation survey;

World's Largest Masturbation Survey Uncovers How Traditional Views of Masculinity Prevent Men from Having Fulfilling Sex Lives & Relationships

If God created 94% unable to obey and then only conferred the holy spirit upon the asexual and/or those with sexual malfunction etc then God is either unlikely to care about US citizens receiving the holy spirit or if God is going to punish those who dont receive it - simply cruel.

In my opinion.

I personally don't trust survey's - but I don't think Israelite is saying only those that have no sexual desire can have the Holy Spirit - but rather that having the Holy Spirit can help us overcome our lusts.

Actually - I know for a fact that that was what Israelite was saying and that you took what he said out of context.

 

[danieldemol]

I personally don't trust survey's - but I don't think Israelite is saying only those that have no sexual desire can have the Holy Spirit - but rather that having the Holy Spirit can help us overcome our lusts.

Actually - I know for a fact that that was what Israelite was saying and that you took what he said out of context.

Why don't you trust surveys, is it because they don't confirm your religious agenda?

It must be a pretty impotent holy spirit if it can only help 8% of US men which would no doubt include asexuals, people with sexual disfunction etc

In my opinion.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Why don't you trust surveys, is it because they don't confirm your religious agenda?

What agenda?

I wouldn't trust a survey even if it only consisted of questions answered by members of my church.

Surveys don't prove or disprove truth - only what opinions people tend to have.

For example - surveying people about masturbation cannot prove or disprove the effects that the Holy Spirit can have on us and our ability to overcome our lusts.

It must be a pretty impotent holy spirit if it can only help 8% of US men which would no doubt include asexuals, people with sexual disfunction etc

This makes no sense.

The Holy Spirit doesn't work on anyone that does not want Him to.

God isn't going to force anyone to overcome their lusts.

The effects or influences of the Holy Spirit come upon those who express desire to change.

In my opinion.

No need to say this - we all get that this is just your opinion.

 

[danieldemol]

What agenda?

Your religious agenda as a Christian.

Surveys don't prove or disprove truth - only what opinions people tend to have.

So if someone admits to masturbating in their opinion you think it doesn't prove they masturbate? It may not be as certain as detecting cum on the hands, but what motive do they have to lie - especially considering the heavy stigma conservative churches give about masturbation?

For example - surveying people about masturbation cannot prove or disprove the effects that the Holy Spirit can have on us and our ability to overcome our lusts.

If we were talking a much lower percentage perhaps I could agree, but considering the number of conservative US citizens it is pretty obvious its powerless to help many of those who would accept its help.

This makes no sense.

The Holy Spirit doesn't work on anyone that does not want Him to.

God isn't going to force anyone to overcome their lusts.

Do you seriously think 92% of US citizens don't want Christian salvation?

In my opinion.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Your religious agenda as a Christian.

Which is...what?

To make sure that people understand what the Holy Spirit will or will not do?

Or to inform people when they are violating Forum Rules by misrepresenting other's arguments or beliefs?

I believe that all people commit sin - so the idea that 92% of American men masturbate is no skin off my nose.

So if someone admits to masturbating in their opinion you think it doesn't prove they masturbate? It may not be as certain as detecting cum on the hands, but what motive do they have to lie - especially considering the heavy stigma conservative churches give about masturbation?

First off - no one in the U.S. cares about any "heavy stigma" had by conservative churches anymore.

Second - surveys are a garbage means of finding accurate information for a number of reasons.

Take the survey you offered - it was taken by Tenga - a maker of sex products - and it claims that the survey compiled "data from more than 13,000 respondents age 18-74 across 18 countries."

So - the first thing we probably notice is the word "respondents" - meaning someone who volunteered to respond to the survey.

And who is more willingly to respond to a survey about masturbation given by a maker of sex toys - someone more liberal or more conservative? Someone more religious or less religious? Someone who knows Tenga or someone who doesn't? Someone who masturbates or someone who doesn't?

It doesn't even mention how these respondents were selected - did they just call up past customers of Tenga products?

Then when you get into their numbers, they never show us the breakdown - how many of the 13,000 respondents are each age? How many of them are Americans? What are these 18 countries?

None of that is mentioned - and all the links to the 2018 Global Self-Pleasure Report do not work.

This survey could have been comprised of only a hundred 18-year-old past customers of Tenga - the only ones willing to take a survey from the makers of their favorite sex toys - and you immediately believed that they represent all men in the U.S.?

The only thing that has been proven is that you have fallen prey to a marketing ploy - an attempt by Tenga to convince the world that everyone masturbates - so why not come buy their sex toys?

Tenga won't judge you!

If we were talking a much lower percentage perhaps I could agree, but considering the number of conservative US citizens it is pretty obvious its powerless to help many of those who would accept its help.

I doubt many conservative Americans would even take the survey. I wouldn't.

They don't even tell us how the respondents were selected - did they just call random numbers? Did they set up booths in malls?

I think they called past customers - because who is more willing to defend their masturbation than the buyers of self-pleasuring toys?

I do think it is kinda funny that you are equating conservatives with Christians - it is sad that religion is now being divided on political lines.

Anyways - even if the survey was 100% accurate (it's not) - the Holy Spirit does not force His influences on anyone - they would need to come to Him.

It's not a question of "power" - but of being obedient to divine laws.

Do you seriously think 92% of US citizens don't want Christian salvation?

The Lord Jesus Christ claimed that all sins will be forgiven us save the one unpardonable sin.

I don't think anyone's salvation is being denied them just because they masturbate.

I do - however - believe that we can gain more in salvation if we learn self-control and try to overcome our lusts.

In my opinion.

We all know that it is your opinion - and that it is based on bad "data".

 

[danieldemol]

Which is...what?

To make sure that people understand what the Holy Spirit will or will not do?

To downplay what it can't do.

I believe that all people commit sin - so the idea that 92% of American men masturbate is no skin off my nose.

You sure are going to lengths to downplay the number of American men who masturbate for someone to whom it is no skin off their nose.

First off - no one in the U.S. cares about any "heavy stigma" had by conservative churches anymore.

I would tend to think conservative members of conservative churches do care

And who is more willingly to respond to a survey about masturbation given by a maker of sex toys - someone more liberal or more conservative? Someone more religious or less religious? Someone who knows Tenga or someone who doesn't? Someone who masturbates or someone who doesn't?

Actually it is somone who is more open and honest who will be willing to respond to a survey, if you don't masturbate what have you got to lose by the statistics being collected in an anonymous survey?

It doesn't even mention how these respondents were selected - did they just call up past customers of Tenga products?

Then when you get into their numbers, they never show us the breakdown - how many of the 13,000 respondents are each age? How many of them are Americans? What are these 18 countries?

None of that is mentioned - and all the links to the 2018 Global Self-Pleasure Report do not work.

It appears to be a broken link, try this one https://www.tenga.co/press/TENGA_2018_Germany_Full_Report.pdf

I doubt many conservative Americans would even take the survey. I wouldn't.

Why, because it goes against your religious agenda for people to know the statistics of how many US men masturbate? Because it *is* skin of your nose all claims to the contrary?

In my opinion

 

[Fallen Prophet]

To downplay what it can't do.

First off - you should use He not "it" when referring to the Holy Spirit - because He is a member of the Godhead and the only God that most people interact with in mortality.

The scriptures are laid before you - nowhere does it claim that the Holy Spirit forces any condition or changes upon people.

That is a good thing that displays the mercy and benevolence of God.

It is not the responsibility of the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit to prevent us from committing sin - that is our job - so how am I "downplaying" anything?

You sure are going to lengths to downplay the number of American men who masturbate for someone to whom it is no skin off their nose.

All I claimed was that I don't trust surveys. They aren't reliable sources of data.

And I'm pointing out that you trying to use that "data" to prove something about men in the U.S. has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit.

It is not His job to keep anyone from committing sin.

We can all overcome our sins by asking for His strength to resist temptation and our natures can be changed through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ - but neither of Them is going to do the work for you.

Everyone in the world could masturbate every second of every day and that wouldn't change anything about the nature and purpose of the Holy Spirit.

I would tend to think conservative members of conservative churches do care

You mean the people teaching love, peace and forgiveness?

I doubt much - if any - of them are participating in any surveys given by the makers of sex toys.

I personally have never taken a survey in my entire life, and I doubt I ever will.

Actually it is somone who is more open and honest who will be willing to respond to a survey, if you don't masturbate what have you got to lose by the statistics being collected in an anonymous survey?

That's a bold assertion to make.

My desire to not take a survey means that I am closed and dishonest somehow?

Where is the logic in that?

And didn't you claim that there was "heavy stigma" of conservative churches about masturbation?

Meaning - those who feel the "stigma" would be more or less willing to participate in a survey about masturbation? More or less willing to lie about their masturbatory exploits?

People are not always honest and there is no guarantee that everyone who responds to a survey is telling the truth.

It appears to be a broken link, try this one https://www.tenga.co/press/TENGA_2018_Germany_Full_Report.pdf

Thanks for that - it answered some questions - but not about how the respondents were selected.

I also thought the whole "Men who feel" part was kind of strange and shady.

Why, because it goes against your religious agenda for people to know the statistics of how many US men masturbate?

No - because most conservative Americans are too busy working for all the welfare collectors and spending time with their families.

They don't have time to discuss intimate details of their lives with people they don't know for a survey that is going to use that data to confirm whatever bias the survey givers had in the first place.

Sex sells.

Because it *is* skin of your nose all claims to the contrary?

Everyone committing sin is a core teaching of my religion.

I don't care if everyone masturbates.

I do care if you try to use that idea - based on shady "data" - to try and take jabs at the Holy Spirit - because you are ignorant of what the Word of God claims.

In my opinion.

 

[danieldemol]

First off - you should use He not "it" when referring to the Holy Spirit - because He is a member of the Godhead and the only God that most people interact with in mortality.

Does your Holy Spirit have a penis?

It is not the responsibility of the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit to prevent us from committing sin - that is our job

Precisely, our actions stem from us, the holy spirit doesn't seem to have any measurable effect on them.

We can all overcome our sins by asking for His strength to resist temptation and our natures can be changed through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ

That is a tall claim to make, and one which could only be demonstrated through a survey of those who are honest conservatives answering survey questions about their masturbatory habits, it seems people like you would prefer we remained ignorant as to the effectiveness of the holy spirit in changing our natures by not answering the surveys, which comes across to me as being closed and dishonest.

Everyone in the world could masturbate every second of every day and that wouldn't change anything about the nature and purpose of the Holy Spirit.

To the contrary since a percentage of the people do ask for help to overcome masturbation of the holy spirit in Jesus name to change their nature it would represent a complete failure of the holy spirit to change the nature of any of them.

You mean the people teaching love, peace and forgiveness?

Most people teach that, but I doubt conservatives are living up to those teachings by attaching heavy stigma to reasonable harmless natural urges.

In my opinion.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Does your Holy Spirit have a penis?

It's almost 2022 - you know that people don't need anything specific in order to be called "he" or "she" anymore.

Check your privilege!

Anyways - it is hard to say if He does or not - because he is currently a personage of spirit.

Spirits are engendered - either male or female - but I don't know if they have the "equipment" until after they enter mortality.

I believe that both the Father and the Son have the "equipment" - because they created Mankind and made them in Their image - not to mention the Son coming to live among us literally.

Either way - the Holy Spirit is a member of the Godhead - meaning that He holds the Priesthood - making Him male.

Precisely, our actions stem from us, the holy spirit doesn't seem to have any measurable effect on them.

According to?

That is a tall claim to make, and one which could only be demonstrated through a survey of those who are honest conservatives answering survey questions about their masturbatory habits, it seems people like you would prefer we remained ignorant as to the effectiveness of the holy spirit in changing our natures by not answering the surveys, which comes across to me as being closed and dishonest.

Nope - such truth isn't realized by surveys - but experience.

The conclusions made by this survey has had no effect on my willingness to masturbate - not has it changed my opinion on anything.

I'm assuming the same applies to you.

You can only come to know the influences of the Holy Spirit by experiencing them for yourself.

To the contrary since a percentage of the people do ask for help to overcome masturbation of the holy spirit in Jesus name to change their nature it would represent a complete failure of the holy spirit to change the nature of any of them.

In my hypothetical scenario - there were no people asking for help from the Holy Spirit.

We still don't know how the "respondents" in the survey were selected.

How many of them were those praying in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to help them change their nature?

That question wasn't asked in the survey.

Most people teach that, but I doubt conservatives are living up to those teachings by attaching heavy stigma to reasonable harmless natural urges.

Circular reasoning - for you were the one who claimed there was such a "heavy stigma" and you have yet to prove that masturbation is "harmless".

The most attention this topic got from my parents was, "Don't do it. If you do - continue daily scripture study and pray for strength to overcome it."

Church leaders have said the very same thing from the pulpit - that everyone needs to do and be better - and that is the truth.

In my opinion.

 

[danieldemol]

Nope - such truth isn't realized by surveys - but experience.

Anonymous surveys tell us about the collective experiences of people, there is not much point having a population wide trial of experience if the collective experiences of conservatives show there isn't any reliable input from the holy spirit that can't be ruled out due to natural causes.

How many of them were those praying in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to help them change their nature?

That question wasn't asked in the survey.

That is a fair point which would be of interest in a US cultural context.

Circular reasoning - for you were the one who claimed there was such a "heavy stigma" and you have yet to prove that masturbation is "harmless".

If you think masturbation is harmful then you have a stigma about it.

And no, the burden of proof lay on the one claiming it is harmful. Otherwise there is nothing to stop people from claiming harm arbitrarily, for example I could arbitrarily claim vegetables are harmful, then the burden of proof would be on me, not on you to disprove that it is harmful before accepting my words.

In my opinion.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Anonymous surveys tell us about the collective experiences of people

Of certain selected people who no one knows, and we are not told how they were selected.

there is not much point having a population wide trial of experience if the collective experiences of conservatives show there isn't any reliable input from the holy spirit that can't be ruled out due to natural causes.

No survey can prove the truth of anything to anyone.

If you want to know whether or not the influences of the Holy Spirit are "due to natural causes" or not - you should first learn what and who the Holy Spirit is - what His mission and functions are and how they apply to you.

Then you should try and experiment on the Word - do as God asks - and see for yourself if the Holy Spirit can have an effect on you.

A survey about masturbation doesn't have the same effect on a person who has never masturbated before or at least experienced climax.

That is a fair point which would be of interest in a US cultural context.

Sure - but it wouldn't help you determine if the Holy Spirit is real and can have an effect on you.

The results of survey could be constrained to point out only the "heavy stigma" you keep mentioning and nothing about the influences of the Holy Spirit.

If you think masturbation is harmful then you have a stigma about it.

I don't recall claiming that masturbation is "harmful' - I did say that it was sinful.

And maybe you are using a different definition for the word "stigma" than I am aware of.

If you believe that everyone sins - as I do - you tend not to degrade or debase people when they sin.

What purpose would that serve?

And this idea that if I think something is harmful, I therefore have a "stigma" about it is a little strange to me.

And no, the burden of proof lay on the one claiming it is harmful.

No - all of my comments about masturbation being sinful have been statements of belief - not statements of fact.

Since you are the one who claimed - as a fact - that masturbation was a "reasonable harmless natural urge" - the onus lies upon you.

Otherwise there is nothing to stop people from claiming harm arbitrarily, for example I could arbitrarily claim vegetables are harmful, then the burden of proof would be on me, not on you to disprove that it is harmful before accepting my words.

If you are claiming that vegetables are "harmful" as a fact - then yes - the onus would be upon you.

Especially if you were trying to use your claims about vegetables to challenge other people's beliefs and traditions - as you are trying to do with this survey.

 

[danieldemol]

No - all of my comments about masturbation being sinful have been statements of belief - not statements of fact.

So long as your beliefs are not factual i don't have a problem with that, but if you consider your beliefs to be fact and expect anyone else to adopt them then its down to the burden of proof being on you to prove them as if they were fact - except for where you run into the gullible who won't care for evidence one way or the other.

In my opinion.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

So long as your beliefs are not factual i don't have a problem with that, but if you consider your beliefs to be fact and expect anyone else to adopt them then its down to the burden of proof being on you to prove them as if they were fact - except for where you run into the gullible who won't care for evidence one way or the other.

People who act on faith - rather than evidence - are not inherently "gullible".

You might hate the idea of people living on faith or hope - but those concepts are our best shot of lifting people out of despair and alleviating their suffering.

Especially if what they have faith and hope in happens to be the truth.

I never made any claim about masturbation in this thread - other than to say that I believed that it was sinful.

You - on the other hand - tried to use this survey as justification for flaunting your ignorance about the influences of the Holy Spirit - that He is somehow "impotent" because 92% of the 493 "respondents" to this survey claim to masturbate.

I believe that it is silly to try and judge the entirety of a nation based on the actions and opinions of only 493 people who you know almost nothing about.

I believe that it is silly to try and judge God and the Holy Spirit based on the opinions and actions of 453 people who you know almost nothing about.

This survey you have referenced hasn't changed my opinion - and I know it hasn't changed yours - so that should be proof enough about the effectiveness of surveys.

The only way to come to know anything in this life is to experience it for yourself.

If you want to know the influences of the Holy Spirit - study the Word of God - come to know of Him - what He does and does not do - what we can ask of Him.

Then you can seek Him out with sincerity and faith - and hopefully you will gain the knowledge and experience you'd need to have an informed position.

Or you can continue to make judgments about entire nations, religions, God and the Holy Spirit based on practically nothing.

It's your choice.

 

[danieldemol]

You might hate the idea of people living on faith or hope - but those concepts are our best shot of lifting people out of despair and alleviating their suffering.

I myself am a person of faith, but I believe that considering available evidence is complementary towards having a faith that is not "inherently gullible".

Especially if what they have faith and hope in happens to be the truth.

That's a pretty big non-demonstrable "if" in the case of abstaining from masturbation leading to any kind of salvation.

I never made any claim about masturbation in this thread - other than to say that I believed that it was sinful.

But what is the relevance of sin if it is not demonstrably harmful?

I believe that it is silly to try and judge God and the Holy Spirit based on the opinions and actions of 453 people who you know almost nothing about.

I have acknowledged it would be good to know more relevant cultural detail about the people involved in the survey.

The only way to come to know anything in this life is to experience it for yourself.

Where hardship is involved many people will want evidence that the hardship is necessary and worth it.

If I told you you had to hop on one leg for the rest of your life for salvation you would want evidence that it is necessary for salvation.

If you want to know the influences of the Holy Spirit - study the Word of God - come to know of Him - what He does and does not do - what we can ask of Him.

I have studied the alleged "word of God" enough to reasonably suspect it is the word of men and thats good enough for me.

Then you can seek Him out with sincerity and faith - and hopefully you will gain the knowledge and experience you'd need to have an informed position.

I'm informed enough about science and other strands of modern knowledge to know the Bible does not accord with enough of it, and if your God writes books contrary to modern knowledge it clearly doesn't want modern intelligent humans to attain salvation.

In my opinion.

 

[Veyl]

It's almost 2022 - you know that people don't need anything specific in order to be called "he" or "she" anymore.

Check your privilege!

Anyways - it is hard to say if He does or not - because he is currently a personage of spirit.

Spirits are engendered - either male or female - but I don't know if they have the "equipment" until after they enter mortality.

I believe that both the Father and the Son have the "equipment" - because they created Mankind and made them in Their image - not to mention the Son coming to live among us literally.

Either way - the Holy Spirit is a member of the Godhead - meaning that He holds the Priesthood - making Him male.

According to?

Nope - such truth isn't realized by surveys - but experience.

The conclusions made by this survey has had no effect on my willingness to masturbate - not has it changed my opinion on anything.

I'm assuming the same applies to you.

You can only come to know the influences of the Holy Spirit by experiencing them for yourself.

In my hypothetical scenario - there were no people asking for help from the Holy Spirit.

We still don't know how the "respondents" in the survey were selected.

How many of them were those praying in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to help them change their nature?

That question wasn't asked in the survey.

Circular reasoning - for you were the one who claimed there was such a "heavy stigma" and you have yet to prove that masturbation is "harmless".

The most attention this topic got from my parents was, "Don't do it. If you do - continue daily scripture study and pray for strength to overcome it."

Church leaders have said the very same thing from the pulpit - that everyone needs to do and be better - and that is the truth.

In my opinion.

Frankly I believe it is pretty insulting to God to imply that men were "made," divinity would be impotent in covering reality if that were the case. It would be more respectful to acknowledge that we are equal. Secondly, how is masturbation any worse than reproduction? That too is a sin of the flesh.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

I myself am a person of faith, but I believe that considering available evidence is complementary towards having a faith that is not "inherently gullible".

I agree with this - there is no such thing as "blind faith" - however part of that process would include examining the "evidence" - which would include scrutinizing how the process by which the data was accumulated and analyzed - as well as the conclusions made.

I still have no reason to believe that surveys are a reliable method of acquiring data.

That's a pretty big non-demonstrable "if" in the case of abstaining from masturbation leading to any kind of salvation.

I never made the claim that abstaining from masturbation led to salvation of any kind.

I have maintained that everyone sins - and that masturbation is sinful behavior - but I also believe that all people will eventually be forgiven of sin.

The New Testament records the Lord Jesus Christ claiming that all sins will be forgiven Man - save one - the unpardonable sin which is called blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

I believe the ignorant and naive rely on this false dichotomy of salvation versus damnation - but that is not what the Word of God maintains.

We are all currently suspended - in a probationary state - of both salvation and damnation - and it is by our thoughts, words and deeds that cause us to experience the effects of either salvation or damnation in this life.

We can be forgiven of sin today by relying on the Lord, resisting temptation, avoiding sin and repenting - or - we can wallow in our sins and feel the effects of a damned soul until a future time when we will eventually be forgiven.

If you continue to sin throughout your days - you will eventually be forgiven at some later time - in the spirit - but you will lose out on gaining the many benefits and blessings of repentance.

So - if you want to masturbate everyday - go ahead - you will one day be forgiven of it - but you will miss out on obtaining the opportunity of learning self-control and abstinence.

Our Father will give positions of authority - of power and responsibility - to those who have learned self-control and abstinence - which comes with greater satisfaction and joy in eternity.

But what is the relevance of sin if it is not demonstrably harmful?

I suppose that would depend on what you consider "harmful".

I have acknowledged it would be good to know more relevant cultural detail about the people involved in the survey.

That's great - but it doesn't make surveys any more reliable and I don't think including that data will change your opinion about the Holy Spirit.

Would it?

Where hardship is involved many people will want evidence that the hardship is necessary and worth it.

What "hardship"?

Are you claiming that not masturbating is a "hardship"? Really?

If I told you you had to hop on one leg for the rest of your life for salvation you would want evidence that it is necessary for salvation.

Abstaining from masturbating isn't debilitating at all - trust me.

Anyone can live a full, healthy and happy life without ever masturbating.

You can have a completely satisfying sex life without masturbating.

What you are saying makes no sense.

I have studied the alleged "word of God" enough to reasonably suspect it is the word of men and thats good enough for me.

You are free to believe whatever you want - but you have said things about the Holy Spirit that the Word of God does not claim.

So - isn't it possible that you don't know enough?

I'm informed enough about science and other strands of modern knowledge to know the Bible does not accord with enough of it, and if your God writes books contrary to modern knowledge it clearly doesn't want modern intelligent humans to attain salvation.

Example?

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Frankly I believe it is pretty insulting to God to imply that men were "made," divinity would be impotent in covering reality if that were the case.

How so?

It would be more respectful to acknowledge that we are equal.

"Equal" in what way?

Secondly, how is masturbation any worse than reproduction? That too is a sin of the flesh.

I believe that the very first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve was for them to "multiply" - which means to reproduce.

I don't believe that we commit sin when we are being obedient to the commands of God.

 

[Veyl]

How so?

"Equal" in what way?

I believe that the very first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve was for them to "multiply" - which means to reproduce.

I don't believe that we commit sin when we are being obedient to the commands of God.

A perfect God would have no need for creation, and perfection in the ultimate sense would be non-existent if things existed that were imperfect. Further, it would be unutterably terrible to do so. In regards to equality, that is in reference to men (and everything else) being God. As for the matter of reproduction, I do not take the Bible as an article of faith. Therefore, I do not see a reason to view it as any greater or lower than other forms of sexual activity. This is of course assuming that one engages in sexual intercourse in order to achieve such an aim, which given contemporary technology need not necessarily be the case.