More Conservative Censorship

[lewisnotmiller]

My response would be to ask how these liberals are open to teaching interpretations from serious conservative thinkers as ideas.

Point being many see an unfair skew.

Serious conservative thinkers like...?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

No agenda... it is removing the agenda.

At best it's the replacement of an agenda with a different agenda.

And I don't need a PhD to understand what is history and what isn't.

It's a much, much, MUCH trickier question than you think.
Not even those with PhDs who specialise in particular branches of history can tell you with accuracy what is history in many cases. But their views are generally more supportable than yours, mine...or Ron DeSantis'.

I have very strong opinions on where and how educational reform could be better handled in terms of 'dealing with' courses receiving public funding but adding dubious value to society. Fair to say at a high level I am not well aligned with the boogeyman left on this, although I'm not sure how much that is real anyway.

 

[fantome profane]

I guess what I'm saying is I'm OK if the controversial liberal and conservative (perhaps not the perfect labels) theories and interpretations are left out of the public school classrooms at this sensitive time.

But only allowing one side and not the other is kind of producing a brainwashing which is what I actually think each side would want. I see only the left side being allowed a pulpit in the current social climate. Let's just eliminate it as DeSantis proposes.

The government eliminating ideas is literally the definition of censorship.

If everyone could just “eliminate” ideas that they think are controversial there would be no ideas left.


So where should controversial ideas be discussed if not in a AP college prep course? Don’t you think should be prepared for controversial ideas?

 

[George-ananda]

You think?
Most people who talk about CRT don't have the faintest idea what they're talking about, and are using it as a political call to arms, which seems somewhat ironic given that they claim to be pushing back on indoctrination.

This is a University level course. Should we remove study of the philosophy of David Hume? Why/Why not?

I have said I think controversial theories from the liberal or conservative sides should best not be included in public schools at this contentious time.

If 'Critical Race Theory' is added from the left then how about 'The Bell Curve' from the right? Or are we best not to wade those waters in the public schools?

 

[George-ananda]

The government eliminating ideas is literally the definition of censorship.

If everyone could just “eliminate” ideas that they think are controversial there would be no ideas left.


So where should controversial ideas be discussed if not in a AP college prep course? Don’t you think should be prepared for controversial ideas?

So are you for discussing ideas from the left (Critical Race Theory) as well as ideas from the right (The Bell Curve) in public schools? With both sides presented.

 

[fantome profane]

So are you for discussing ideas from the left (Critical Race Theory) as well as ideas from the right (The Bell Curve) in public schools? With both sides presented.

Absolutely, yes. If that is the one idea from all those serious conservative thinkers that you want to represent conservatism I am absolutely fine with that.

 

[George-ananda]

Absolutely, yes. If that is the one idea from all those serious conservative thinkers that you want to represent conservatism I am absolutely fine with that.

OK, then is its argument part of the current curriculum along with other liberal ideas that DeSantis wants to cancel?

 

[fantome profane]

OK, then is its argument part of the current curriculum along with other liberal ideas that DeSantis wants to cancel?

If it were, would you be happy with that?

 

[George-ananda]

If it were, would you be happy with that?

Yes, if all sides get fair time.

 

[fantome profane]

Yes, if all sides get fair time.

Ok.

And just to be clear, your side is represented by “The Bell Curve”. That is what you want to represent the great conservative thinkers of our time.

I am good with that.

 

[F1fan]

And on the other side of the coin are the people that feel with presenting things like 'Wokeism' and 'Critical Race Theory' in the classroom, it's the far left that is 'using schools as political weapons in their cultural war'.

First, "wokeism" is a far right idea that misrepresents basic liberal and moderate attitudes, and does so to vilify anyone who isn't far right. What I understand to be "woke ideology" is basic decency, equality, freedom, and liberal thinking. Second, CRT is college level classes that teach complex issues about American society and racism. I have never seen any coherent explanation as to why CRT is a threat, or that is presents incorrect information. Notice that it is being referred to as a "political weapon" and that is part of the propaganda and misinformation that the right wing is doing. It;'s ironic to accuse academics teaching a class about racism as being part of a culture war. What does the right wing want, to ignore racism?

The crux of this matter is the indoctrination of 'Wokeism' and 'Critical Race Theory' into public schools.

False, CRT is college level. So your claim here is incorrect. Where did you pick up this dinformation? Was it poor quality, right wing media?

An "wokeism" is a right wing thing, there is no liberal teaching of whatever that is supposed to be.

How about you explain what you think "wokeism" is.

I think we should all have a say in this controversy including our elected representatives. I believe far liberals can go too far with some claims and teachings and we have a right to oppose that through our democratically elected representatives.

Like what? Are you being deliberatey vague, or just have no idea what you believe?

Do you think civil rights should be eliminated if the majority of citizens want it gone? If the majority want to limit voting access in areas where their political opponents live, is that democracy?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I thought Kansas was one of the reddest states of the country. But maybe it's Nebraska now. Or South Dakota.

Arizona is purple.

From what I've read Kansas used to be one of the blueist and then it went hardnosed Conservative. Hopefully it might be an indication of changing paradigms and days of repression from the Religious right and their equally problematic RW counterparts (like the NRA) are numbered.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I have said I think controversial theories from the liberal or conservative sides should best not be included in public schools at this contentious time.

If 'Critical Race Theory' is added from the left then how about 'The Bell Curve' from the right? Or are we best not to wade those waters in the public schools?

When you say 'The Bell Curve', you're talking specifically about Charles Murray and his theories?

 

[George-ananda]

When you say 'The Bell Curve', you're talking specifically about Charles Murray and his theories?

Correct.

 

[Stevicus]

Sure. But that's not going to end discussions on the 'accuracy' of texts.
Simple example, what was the impact of Ragnar Lothbrok on the formation of England?

That sounds like an open-ended question which might lead to some subjective answers. People might look at the same set of facts, agree upon the accuracy of those facts, yet still might differ in their interpretations and conclusions. I would resist any tendency which suggests that there's only one "correct" interpretation or conclusion, as long as the basic facts are accurate.

 

[Kenny]

No, what I am saying is that it should be abundantly clear, both in terms of which AP course he selected and how he grandstanded it, what he was doing and why.

Secondly, there are different ways it could have been handled that would be less "dramatic" if he didn't even want to give the appearance that this was not mainly a political tactic. Instead, he did much the same disingenuous tactic in his "Don't say gay" photo-op with children standing up with him. If that was so supposedly so sensitive, why have them exposed to his grandstanding on the same thing he says Florida's children shouldn't be exposed to?

Thirdly, it's quite clear what DeSantis was doing and why because he keeps doing it over and over again, using these "culture wars" tactics to appeal to the MAGA base especially. C'mom, this should be obvious by now. And now he wants to expand the death penalty standards while claiming to be pro life as a Catholic: DeSantis disregards Catholic bishops on death penalty, oversees Florida's 100th execution (angelusnews.com)

And then he supported Trump, a twice impeached insurrectionist president who has a lengthy record of racism, religious bigotry, and much dishonesty: "During the Republican primary, DeSantis emphasized his support for Trump by running an ad in which DeSantis taught his children how to "build the wall" and say "Make America Great Again" and dressed one of his children in a red "Make America Great Again" jumper.[49] Asked if he could name an issue where he disagreed with Trump, DeSantis did not identify one.[50]..." -- Ron DeSantis - Wikipedia

And this: "After the 2020 U.S. elections, DeSantis and other Republicans proposed changes to Florida election laws. DeSantis called for eliminating ballot drop boxes, as well as limiting voting by mail by requiring that voters re-register every year to vote by mail and requiring that signatures on mail-in ballots "must match the most recent signature on file" (rather than any of the voter's signatures in the Florida system).[307][308] The changes to mail-in voting were notable given that Republicans had historically voted by mail more than Democrats, but Democrats outvoted Republicans by mail in 2020. -- After the 2020 U.S. elections, DeSantis and other Republicans proposed changes to Florida election laws. DeSantis called for eliminating ballot drop boxes, as well as limiting voting by mail by requiring that voters re-register every year to vote by mail and requiring that signatures on mail-in ballots "must match the most recent signature on file" (rather than any of the voter's signatures in the Florida system).[307][308] The changes to mail-in voting were notable given that Republicans had historically voted by mail more than Democrats, but Democrats outvoted Republicans by mail in 2020." [same source as above]

There's more, but I think you get the point.

Hello Metis,

Here's hoping that you have a blessed and meaningful Sunday.

I may oversimplify things, but here is how I look at it taking an example from the bible in Philippians
1: 15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will 16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: 17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. 18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

Notice that Paul didn't care what the motivation was behind them preaching because at least they are preaching.

Likewise, I understand all politicians will have a political motivation no matter which party. For me, the political reason is irrelevant as long as the right decision is being made. The course had an agenda that wasn't education.

I don't care why DeSantis did it, what his motivation was or even if it was political posturing. The course was wrong and needed to be either changed or stopped. I'm just happy it was done for the benefit of the children or young people so that they weren't being manipulated.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

My point is that political weaponizing happens on both sides. Liberals will use the branding 'racist' on any conservative thinker.

I agree, both sides certainly politicize things to bash each other with.

My point is both sides or neither in the public school classroom.

What is the other side to teaching civil rights in the classroom?

 

[metis]

Notice that Paul didn't care what the motivation was behind them preaching because at least they are preaching.

Oh, he very much did care, as did Jesus when the latter verbally attacked many of the Pharisees for just talking-the-talk but not walking-the-walk. Paul also warned of those who may "cause division" amongst those in the Way.

Likewise, I understand all politicians will have a political motivation no matter which party. For me, the political reason is irrelevant as long as the right decision is being made. The course had an agenda that wasn't education.

Oh, it very much was and is "education", so I have no clue as to why you said it wasn't. And on of the brunt of any AP course in cultural studies is to open the teaching and discussion up to numerous sources, including those that may be very controversial. The approach is to encourage the students to analyze and think critically, and then draw their own conclusions. I'm very familiar with AP courses and their approach because I was asked to teach such a course but declined so as to leave it to some "young blood" since I was near retirement. But I worked on a team of veterans to work with course material and guidelines for an AP political science course.

I don't care why DeSantis did it, what his motivation was or even if it was political posturing. The course was wrong and needed to be either changed or stopped. I'm just happy it was done for the benefit of the children or young people so that they weren't being manipulated.

Well, I do care what DeSantis and others do along this line because it affects what serious students are going to be exposed to because that's what AP courses deal with. In my final years in education, I worked on an AP poli-sci course but didn't want to teach it myself since I was getting ready to retire soon. However, I did work on the committee that did design it that included which resources to use.

Your idea that they were being "manipulated" couldn't be further from the truth as this is what DeSantis and his supporters actually are trying to do. Plus, it smacks of racism even if he isn't a racist but just was political grandstanding as he went after the African American AP and not any of the European or Asian AP courses! Why would he do this if he wanted to make sure it wasn't interpreted as him being a racist??? He's no dummy, so the strong impression I've gotten was that appealing to many in his base was more important to him.

But his disingenuousness may be beginning to backfire on him because in a very recent survey his approval rating showed a lowering of support amongst the Pubs.

Here's hoping that you have a blessed and meaningful Sunday.

And much the same to you, my friend.

 

[Father Heathen]

No agenda... it is removing the agenda.

And what agenda would that be?

 

[Father Heathen]

Just my $.02 here.
Seems that the outcry is about African-American's, just wondering where the outcry is for Chinese-American, Japaness-American, and other ethnicities especially the American Indians that seem to have been forgotten among most of you. If you think African-American's need their own courses why not include the others? Heck student's can spend years on these courses; of course then it wouldn't leave much time for courses like math and science.

What on earth are you gibbering about? Such courses do exist, so why are conservatives singling out African American studies?
And sure, pretend your opposition is over math time worries.