Morality and the atheists

[Falvlun]

i thought deviants were obviously excluded from my post...guess i have to spell it out
that's why i said:

I think you are pretty close to a No True Scotsman there. "Everyone is morally the same, and the ones that aren't don't count."

Besides, as far as 'deviants" go, that's why I purposefully didn't use the comparison of murderers and rapists to non-murders and rapists. I would assume that they are at a far end of one spectrum (although, why should they be excluded from your statement? afterall, murder and rape isn't exactly rare in human society.)

The point still stands: Some people lie more than others. Some men hit their wives when they are angry; some men do not. Some people cheat on their spouses; other people do not. "In general" we aren't all on the exact same moral par.

 

[imaginaryme]

The point still stands: Some people lie more than others. Some men hit their wives when they are angry; some men do not. Some people cheat on their spouses; other people do not. "In general" we aren't all on the exact same moral par.

Sure we are. Every once in a while, all of us act like god.

 

[javajo]

If you failed a test, and then had a friend take that test over for you so that you could pass it, would you truly feel as if you were free from your failure?

This is just my personal beliefs. I believe when it comes to sin we all get a big fat F. When God forgives us he purposely forgets. I look at salvation as something we receive instead of something we achieve because none of us are perfectly holy yet that is the standard to be let into Heaven. So God in his great wisdom and mercy offers us his righteousness in place of our own and paid the penalty of our sin so that he may now declare us justified. There is no other way that does not satisfy God's justice.

 

[javajo]

well that's different from

Not really.

i equate that to 1st we must know what our limitations are...
and not be so hard on our selves for our shortcomings...while striving to
be true to our integrity to find the strength to live by the courage of ones convictions.

I believe limitations and shortcomings are not the exactly the same thing as sin. I believe I am a sinner, guilty before a holy God and I am thankful he provided a way for me to receive (not achieve) salvation.

 

[Falvlun]

Sure we are. Every once in a while, all of us act like god.

Unfortunately, we all aren't acting that way at the same time, and some of the gods were pretty big jerks.

This is just my personal beliefs. I believe when it comes to sin we all get a big fat F. When God forgives us he purposely forgets. I look at salvation as something we receive instead of something we achieve because none of us are perfectly holy yet that is the standard to be let into Heaven. So God in his great wisdom and mercy offers us his righteousness in place of our own and paid the penalty of our sin so that he may now declare us justified. There is no other way that does not satisfy God's justice.

I'm sorry, javajo. I just can't appreciate this sort of grading scale, one that lumps those who try and those who don't, those who get 90% and those who get 35%, all in the same failing group. And how it makes sense for the teacher to say "Hey, all you failures, I can give you an A, if you just come up here to accept it" is beyond me.

 

[waitasec]

I think you are pretty close to a No True Scotsman there. "Everyone is morally the same, and the ones that aren't don't count."

except i didn't say everyone...i said in general.

The point still stands: Some people lie more than others. Some men hit their wives when they are angry; some men do not. Some people cheat on their spouses; other people do not. "In general" we aren't all on the exact same moral par.

i disagree. there are more people that do not do these things than there are who do...and those who do are not what i meant by "in general"

 

[waitasec]

Not really.

i don't understand how one can believe:
we all fall short...
while believing some are morally superior than others...

I believe limitations and shortcomings are not the exactly the same thing as sin.

explain what sin is then. isn't it missing the mark? isn't it making mistakes...?

I believe I am a sinner, guilty before a holy God and I am thankful he provided a way for me to receive (not achieve) salvation.

believing is how one achieves salvation...
ultimately, it's up to the individual.

 

[Falvlun]

except i didn't say everyone...i said in general


i disagree. there are more people that do not do these things than there are who do...and those who do are not what i meant by "in general"

And I still deny that we are all the same "in general". I have given plenty of examples, both of extreme moral deficits and little moral deficits. You didn't even comment on some of the more common moral lapses that people do (things that we generally consider immoral but won't get you thrown in jail). Besides, in general, when you are talking about "in generals", you are including everyone in your sample size. That is generally what in general means.

 

[waitasec]

And I still deny that we are all the same "in general". I have given plenty of examples, both of extreme moral deficits and little moral deficits. You didn't even comment on some of the more common moral lapses that people do (things that we generally consider immoral but won't get you thrown in jail). Besides, in general, when you are talking about "in generals", you are including everyone in your sample size. That is generally what in general means.

generally speaking of course...


look, all i'm trying to say is the average joe is trying the best they can with what they have...no one wakes up in the morning and says, 'hey i'm gonna be a jerk today...' unless they are not "normal"

 

[Acim]

...or radical atheist

 

[waitasec]

...or radical atheist

or theist...

 

[Acim]

...pretending to be an atheist

 

[waitasec]

...pretending to be an atheist

now that is rude...

 

[Acim]

Only cause when you pretend to be an atheist, it can come off jerky.

While actual atheists....

 

[waitasec]

Only cause when you pretend to be an atheist, it can come off jerky.

While actual atheists....

rock
:jam:

 

[javajo]

What I believe from my understanding of the Bible is compared to a perfectly holy God, we do all fall short or miss the mark of perfect holiness. Not one human being can claim that, yet that is what is required by God to enter Heaven. Here are a couple verses: (I underlined the emphasized words so you don't have to read all of it)

for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Galatians 3:21b-22

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Romans 3:22-24
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Romans 5:11-13

Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Romans 5:17-19

This is just what I believe. I believe these verses are true and that all have sinned. I know for sure that I have. I sin every single day many times over. I believe we need a righteousness not of our own. I believe when we trust Christ to have paid the penalty for our sin and he gives us the free gift of eternal life, he also gives us his righteousness in place of our own. So I believe our sins are all paid for and we have Christ's robe of righteousness on and God sees us as holy and blameless, not because of what we have done, but because of what Christ has done. I believe this way, everyone can be saved who wants to and nobody can boast except in the cross of Christ.

 

[waitasec]

What I believe from my understanding of the Bible is compared to a perfectly holy God, we do all fall short or miss the mark of perfect holiness. Not one human being can claim that, yet that is what is required by God to enter Heaven. Here are a couple verses: (I underlined the emphasized words so you don't have to read all of it)

for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Galatians 3:21b-22

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Romans 3:22-24
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Romans 5:11-13

Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Romans 5:17-19

This is just what I believe. I believe these verses are true and that all have sinned. I know for sure that I have. I sin every single day many times over. I believe we need a righteousness not of our own. I believe when we trust Christ to have paid the penalty for our sin and he gives us the free gift of eternal life, he also gives us his righteousness in place of our own. So I believe our sins are all paid for and we have Christ's robe of righteousness on and God sees us as holy and blameless, not because of what we have done, but because of what Christ has done. I believe this way, everyone can be saved who wants to and nobody can boast except in the cross of Christ.

no one is perfect, that is obvious.

and if we were, life would be boring, sterile, stagnant and bland...
not to mention our innate sense of curiosity and to improvise would be suppressed....

 

[darkendless]

...or radical atheist

You seem to have a distinct problem with atheism. Seems you've met a few little kids who were obsessed with trolling religion (usually Christianity specific) and now you think that all atheists are the same. Might need to spend a bit more time here before you make such assumptions.

 

[Acim]

You seem to have a distinct problem with atheism. Seems you've met a few little kids who were obsessed with trolling religion (usually Christianity specific) and now you think that all atheists are the same.

Might need to spend a bit more time here before you make such assumptions.

Carry on.

 

[darkendless]

Carry on.

Just pointing out a few things before the stereotype police have a giant whinge at you for your view of atheists. Personally I couldn't care less what you say.