Miracles

[Ellen Brown]

They are good points to make.

1/ It is certainly well documented in the gospels thet religious leaders of the day had attributed His Powers to Belzebub, the prince of the demons.
(Mark 3:22, Matthew 12:24-28, Luke 11:15-19 and Matthew 10:25).

2/ Christ warned of false 'Christs' or messiahs that would deceive many and perform great signs and wonders.
(Matthew 24: 24-25)

3/ Paul made similar warnings.
(2 Corinthians 11:13-15, 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

I would add that the New Testament teaches to seek for truth, not miracles.
(Matthew 12:9, John 8:32)

We should recognise true prophets by their fruits (not by their miracles)
(Matthew 7:16-20)

St Paul speaks of the fruits of the spirit as being good character and virtue.
(Galatians 5:22-23)

There seems to be two challenges:
1/ Recognise the true Christ
2/ reject the false Christ

As Jesus was the promised one any others that came over the next century or so were always going to be false.

Nearly two thousand years after Christ's Revelation, the church or Body of Christ has become hopelessly divided and corrupt. All the signs are there for Christ's return. Unfortunately despite Christ's admonition not to be swayed by miracles many Christians do just that. They place faith that Christ will appear with great signs and wonders.
(Matthew 24:29-30).

Having read your post, I am pondering if what happened to me was from God or satan? I'll attempt to sleep on that. Your post is well ordered and logical, mashallah.

 

[Beth Stitely]

Nearly two thousand years after Christ's Revelation, the church or Body of Christ has become hopelessly divided and corrupt. All the signs are there for Christ's return. Unfortunately despite Christ's admonition not to be swayed by miracles many Christians do just that. They place faith that Christ will appear with great signs and wonders.
(Matthew 24:29-30).

This reference is to the 2nd coming of Christ, which is a different topic from the original question regarding the authenticity of the miracles of Christ....Jesus says that in the end times, many will come and say they are the Christ. Jesus says not to believe these rumors because all will be witness to His return, which will come with power and great glory.

But while Jesus tells us to watch for the signs of His 2nd coming, Jesus talks more about how we should wait for His return:
-we should wait as one who does not want to be surprised at his master's coming
-We should wait as through we know the master's coming might be long delayed
- We should wait as a steward who must give account of his/her service
-We should wait for Jesus as a slave commissioned to improve His Master's assets.

 

[Faithofchristian]

U really just stated that

Did you really just stated that Jesus established the laws of nature? What about the countless people, animals, environments etc that were living long before him?

As to how do you get people, animals and the environment as being befoer Christ Jesus.
Seeing Christ Jesus created all those things, So that means Christ Jesus was before people,animals and the environment before they were created.

 

[Fool]

I know. But once Satan is the master deceiver, anything you believe in about Jesus could be his work. It is actually self defeating.

Little question: didn't you notice a slight change of attitude between the God of the OT and the God of the NT?

I would be worried, if I were you...

Ciao

- viole

jesus was a little ambiguous. speak of the devil


giggles

 

[Katzpur]

Good for him/her!

Quick...how fast did s/he get to you? I think my fastest approach when I was a missionary was thirty seconds. I would have been faster, but I had to dodge around a toddler.

But yeah, an interfaith gathering would have been a good place to get one of those. I hope you also got all the goodies from every other faith that was there that day.

I remember an interfaith gathering that our own 'stake' hosted a few years ago. There were Wiccans who blessed the chapel, Methodists who sang blessings on it, Presbyterians who rang bells in it, a Muslim who called everybody to prayer in it, a Rabbi who brought his cantor to sing...that was my favorite for sheer beautiful music...(actually, my favorites were the Wiccans) and a bunch of Lutherans, Seventh Day Adventists and Catholics (monks from the local priory...they were great!) pretty much everybody but Jehovah's Witnesses, who were invited but didn't come.

Lots of Books of Mormon were passed out, and we made sure that everybody else had stuff to pass out, too. A good time was had by everybody except the Muslim, who had a huff because the Rabbi came on before him (or after him? I forget) .

Everybody else had a very nice day.

I can't tell you how much I'd have loved to be there!

 

[ajay0]

The Gospels record miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning?

Science has established unchanging laws of nature governing the phenomenal world. Is it possible to deviate from such laws allowing an opportunity for miracles to occur?

I have directly seen such instances of 'miracles' and have also read and heard about them.

My understanding is that the human mind is much more powerful than understood , and psychic powers can develop under certain conditions.

Patanjali's Yoga Sutras deal with this subject in detail, and illustrates also the psychic powers gained by practice of meditation.

 

[oldbadger]

The Gospels record miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning?

Science has established unchanging laws of nature governing the phenomenal world. Is it possible to deviate from such laws allowing an opportunity for miracles to occur?

Most of the miracles in G Mark are based upon fact imo. On the other hand, many of the miracles on G John look, hmmmmm, wobbly!

Jesus was a very clever and wise man. The stories just grew.

Do you remember Jonah Lomu? I listened to a sports reporter screaming his head off as Jonah drove through the opposing scrum like a tank and then thundered down the wing to score. Inna thousand years maybe folks will hear of his miracles, driving a tank that roared like thunder, etc? But it was all based upon facts that we understand well enough at this time.

 

[viole]

Then you are not just an atheist but an antitheist.

Me? Oh no. I would be scared to death if all people in the world suddenly realize this is the only life they have.

This is all one giant strawman argument, admittedly fuelled by many religious adherents. For many it is easy to have a faith in Jesus without recourse to a literal resurrection. I don't know where the flying horses are coming from?

The flying horses? I suspect they are in Islam.

So, no literal resurrection? I thought that event is the only common denominator all Christians share.

While God may appear invisible the footsteps left by His Great educators, whether Christ, Moses, Muhammad or Krishna are unmistakeable.

I think they are very mistakable. For instance, you have an educator that says all humans are equal, the other says Jews are special, and the other that humans should actually be structured in castes at birth.

By these standards, anything goes, really.

Ciao

- viole

 

[dianaiad]

I can't tell you how much I'd have loved to be there!

One of by best memories...it was so much fun! Almost everybody (I keep forgetting the Muslim muezzim who got upset with the Rabbi) had a great experience.

....and we gave away a great many copies of the Book of Mormon. (grin)

 

[TransmutingSoul]

As to how do you get people, animals and the environment as being befoer Christ Jesus.
Seeing Christ Jesus created all those things, So that means Christ Jesus was before people,animals and the environment before they were created.

The great miracle for me is understanding that Jesus, the 'Flesh Body' is not 'Christ the Holy Spirit'.

When this mindset enters Christianity, the greatest miracle unfolds. It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh amounts to nothing.

Regards Tony

 

[Faithofchristian]

The great miracle for me is understanding that Jesus, the 'Flesh Body' is not 'Christ the Holy Spirit'.

When this mindset enters Christianity, the greatest miracle unfolds. It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh amounts to nothing.

Regards Tony

The flesh isn't what counts, it's who's inside of the body of Christ Jesus that counts.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The flesh isn't what counts, it's who's inside of the body of Christ Jesus that counts.

I see that would be the Spirit Jesus was born of, the Holy Spirit. A perfect reflection of God in Attributes.

Once in about every 1000 years this miracle of birth is gifted to humanity.

Consider the reality of us born of the human spirit,

"Dost thou reckon thyself only a puny form
When within thee the universe is folded?"

Now consider the Miracle that is Christ, the Holy Spirit. We can not Fathom the Infinite Immensity of that Spirit, far far beyond the human spirit, which has the universe folded within, let alone what is the Essence of God.

Regards Tony

 

[shmogie]

The Gospels record miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning?

Science has established unchanging laws of nature governing the phenomenal world. Is it possible to deviate from such laws allowing an opportunity for miracles to occur?

Christ said he did miracles to clearly establish the authority and authenticity He had.

The creator of the natural laws may ¨break¨ them any time He chooses, else He would not be super natural, he would be just natural, like all humans

 

[David T]

The Gospels record miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning?

Science has established unchanging laws of nature governing the phenomenal world. Is it possible to deviate from such laws allowing an opportunity for miracles to occur?

"Science has established unchanging laws of nature governing the phenomenal world"

The phenomena we see and dont see is absolutely not separate from any rules we might imagine governing it. You cant split apart the phenomena from the absractions we create about the phenomena abd proclaim they dictate phenomena behavior. Otherwise its just another god outside reality dictating reality in new secular drag as opposed to personalized religious drag is all.. The question then becomes which outside reality is correct? Religion or science?

If i toss a rock into the air and it falls to earth i could say gravity is the causality. the problem is that the rock is not an object independent from gravity it too is gravity as well.

So how you described abstractions as dictating phenomena is a really normal prevailing thing in science but not everyone agrees with it.

I use gravity as an example it sometimes is proclaimed to be well defined and fully understood, thats bad science. its not remotely fully understood and that is in fact good science. If two objects are split apart in what would be a gravuty free universe but just the two objects had mass. No matter how far apart they would be split they would eventually gravitate to each other. Gracity is both local and non local instantaneously. That "fact" is a very interesting fact and not remotely understood.

 

[David T]

The Gospels record miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning?

Science has established unchanging laws of nature governing the phenomenal world. Is it possible to deviate from such laws allowing an opportunity for miracles to occur?

Oh and to adress the question random accidental is identical to miracles.

If i see a whale walking up the path when i am hiking singing a song playing a guitar, i will then know miracles are indeed real, and accidental random is fundemental to the cosmos. It will be the first actual real emperical evidence of random accidentalism ever.

Till then i will hike in the forests knowing that neither miracles nor random accidental plays any part at all in any location of any plant in the forest any rock on the surface nor any path that the streams follow in its entirety. Miracles and accidental randomists dont engage nature directly but read about it and argue over what they have read. Thats Normal.

 

[Prestor John]

The Gospels record miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning?

Science has established unchanging laws of nature governing the phenomenal world. Is it possible to deviate from such laws allowing an opportunity for miracles to occur?

I believe that those things we label "miracles" operate within the laws of nature.

We just are unable to discern or recreate them with science.

 

[Dawnofhope]

This reference is to the 2nd coming of Christ, which is a different topic from the original question regarding the authenticity of the miracles of Christ....Jesus says that in the end times, many will come and say they are the Christ. Jesus says not to believe these rumors because all will be witness to His return, which will come with power and great glory.

But while Jesus tells us to watch for the signs of His 2nd coming, Jesus talks more about how we should wait for His return:
-we should wait as one who does not want to be surprised at his master's coming
-We should wait as through we know the master's coming might be long delayed
- We should wait as a steward who must give account of his/her service
-We should wait for Jesus as a slave commissioned to improve His Master's assets.

What fascinates me is the enormous emphasis many Christians have on miracles both within their understanding of the who Christ was and their expectation of how the Return of the Christ will come about. Often Christian belief is defined, not so about doing good in the world and helping the needy (Matthew 25:31-46) but instead insisting the certain miracles happened and the Jesus was God.

If the historic importance of the miracles is based on the gospels, should we accept the accounts of the miracles in other faith traditions based on similar accounts? Muhammad allegedly split the mood for example. The Hindu sacred writings have many stories of miracles.

 

[Brickjectivity]

What fascinates me is the enormous emphasis many Christians have on miracles both within their understanding of the who Christ was and their expectation of how the Return of the Christ will come about. Often Christian belief is defined, not so about doing good in the world and helping the needy (Matthew 25:31-46) but instead insisting the certain miracles happened and the Jesus was God.

I think people sometimes feel a very strong desire to believe in miracles. I think its not merely a whim but a very strong push. I think there are different times and reasons for it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This reference is to the 2nd coming of Christ, which is a different topic from the original question regarding the authenticity of the miracles of Christ....Jesus says that in the end times, many will come and say they are the Christ. Jesus says not to believe these rumors because all will be witness to His return, which will come with power and great glory.

But while Jesus tells us to watch for the signs of His 2nd coming, Jesus talks more about how we should wait for His return:
-we should wait as one who does not want to be surprised at his master's coming
-We should wait as through we know the master's coming might be long delayed
- We should wait as a steward who must give account of his/her service
-We should wait for Jesus as a slave commissioned to improve His Master's assets.

Then Christ comes like a thief in the night and catches all be surprise.

Regards Tony