Miley Cyrus Performance at the TCA

[blackout]

I can hardly believe the version of "me" some of you have created in this thread.

Assumptions... and misunderstandings abound.....
like a runaway train...

 

[blackout]

UltraViolet, I hate to say it, but you are the very essence of an Elitist. You are like the English teacher who prattles on and on about how great Shakespeare's plays are and that all entertainment today is worthless garbage (never mind the fact that Shakespeare's plays were originally for the common folk). I suppose Sir Richard Branson is not a real businessman because he never finished the UK equivalent of High School, nor did he ever attend a University to study business.

You say:

What you are arguing is that your ability to play complicated songs on a guitar or other instrument is what makes you a musician. I always thought it is pleasing to the ear that makes a good musician. You can play the longest and complicated instrumental solos (like so many Heavy metal songs do), but I find them to be quite boring. In fact, I find most Classic Music to be quite mediocre. I have found some tribal songs, by non-professions, to be much more asthetically pleasing, but I guess they do not meet your Elitist standard.



Unlike the Elitists of this world claim, music and talent is wholly subjective.

It is obvious you have NO IDEA at all what I 'am arguing'.

Neither do you have any idea what I think of "today's" entertainment.
Or aparantely anything else for that matter.

(how many hours have I wasted here today....)

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Music theory is mathematical patterning.

There is nothing subjective about this.

Either you know it all over your instrument or you don't.

The more mathematical patterning you know all over your instrument,
the more "stuff" you can play.
It's really no mystery, and there's nothing subjective about it.


What you like, connect with, and find meaning in is subjective.
The personal musical experience is subjective.
But Basic Musicianship is not.
It is knowledge, and ability.
The ability to hear & play your way through a line or a chord progression
is NOT subjective.
The ability to analyze a piece of music in "terms" of music theory is not.
Ask a professor at any University Level Music Department.

These things are all part and parcel of BEING a musician.
The be all end all? Most certainly not.
But integral? Most definately.

So tell me, is Jerry Lee Lewis a musician? He had no formal training and taught himself how to play the piano by listening to the radio. If you started talking to him about mathematical patterning he would laugh in your face. To him it was all about the music, not being able to say he learned how to play from some high brow school. You're claiming that studying the mechanics of creating music is intergral to being a musician, well I would say there are too many examples of that not being the case to support your claim.

 

[Darkness]

The more mathematical patterning you know all over your instrument,
the more "stuff" you can play.
It's really no mystery, and there's nothing subjective about it.

The more stuff you can play does not a good musician make.

 

[Father Heathen]

Let's not confuse a slick product with an actual talented singer or musician, unlike UltraViolet, I have no musical talent myself and even I can hear she is mediocre at best.

That being said, she is not there for me to enjoy she is there for kids, who seem to love her. I don't see any evidence that she is a bad role model for them, at the moment anyway, and even if she were, a pop stars' influence won't corrupt a child with a solid moral upbringing, kids aren't idiots.

Having a music career is hardly evidence of musical talent these days, Myley Cyrus seems bratty to me, but what would you expect, you would have to be made of stone to have the upbringing she has had, in her fathers limelight then her own career and not be influenced by it.

Exactly.

 

[Darkness]

Let's not confuse a slick product with an actual talented singer or musician, unlike UltraViolet, I have no musical talent myself and even I can hear she is mediocre at best.

Again, the ball is in your court to prove that there is some objective standard of what talent is and what it is not.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Again, the ball is in your court to prove that there is some objective standard of what talent is and what it is not.

I have no problem with monta's comment, I'm not a good judge of musical ability so I can't speak to Miley's level of talent. My only complaint is with those who state she has no talent when it's obvious she does and with those who are saying she isn't a musician when she obviously knows how to play musical instruments and can do so professionally. The level of talent she may have is another discussion entirely.

 

[McBell]

It is obvious you have NO IDEA at all what I 'am arguing'.

He is most definately not alone.
So what is it exactly you are arguing?

So far all I get is that Miley Cirus does not meet with YOUR idea of what makes some one a "musician".
Though it sounds to me, based upon your posts in this thread, that there are lots of people you would not consider a musician.

People like Elvis Presley, Jerry Lee Lewis, Johnny Cash, Leslie Gore, Loretta Lynn, etc.

I wonder, what about Dolly Parton?
She has had no formal musical schooling at all.

Seems that there are lots of "musicians" who do not make it into YOUR idea of what makes a "musician".

 

[blackout]

So tell me, is Jerry Lee Lewis a musician? He had no formal training and taught himself how to play the piano by listening to the radio. If you started talking to him about mathematical patterning he would laugh in your face. To him it was all about the music, not being able to say he learned how to play from some high brow school. You're claiming that studying the mechanics of creating music is intergral to being a musician, well I would say there are too many examples of that not being the case to support your claim.

It is quite possible to know and hear your way
through the mathematical patterning of music
without knowing the names of what you are playing.


A blues scale is a blues scale is a blues scale.
If you can jam on a blues scale you know it by sound...
by touch... by feel.... even if you cannot name a single note you are playing.


You all think I'm talking about some "highbrow" educational thing?
My roots are jazz.
In the days of Dizzy and Bird,
HARLEM jam sessions were the university.
The streets and the clubs were the university.
And they were quite literally MAKING UP a whole new music--
building upon the foundation of what was handed down before them.
Being a musician is not about "naming things".
It is about hearing your way through sound patterns so fluidly
that you do NOT have to think about them,
(even though you are periferally aware of them),
so that you are free to EXPRESS yourself. Express something deeper.

Musicianship is the practical recognition of sound,
along with the imediate tactile recognition of what forms that sound.
(in your hands... your breath... the weight of your touch...
the shape of your lips... the keys and frets and valves of your instrument...
in the expression of your soul)
What things are "called" is a secondary matter indeed.
Though it is very helpful in communicating music to other musicians
when you know what things are called.
It is also easier to have a clear analyitical grasp of what someone has played
when you know what things are called.
This makes for more effective learning and emulation.
This is called music education.

Music Universities will not "degree" you if you do not have a firm grasp on what all these patterns are called.
Even if you can hear & play your way brilliantly through all of them, as many "illiterate" but brilliant musician can.
But please do not consider me elitist in this regard.
I did not make the educational rules.

If you can jam... REALLY jam... I couldn't care less what you call any of it.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I watched the video and the pole was pretty tame. Miss Cyrus did not make any phallic innuendos and the pole was not the focal point of the performance. I say this is a big to do about nothing.

 

[Darkness]

I am tired of this. We are going in circles Ultraviolet. All we are really debating is what is the definition of musician. I think that you are in the majority as to what the word "musician" means in the English language. Can we please stop all this intellectual masturbation, now?

 

[blackout]

I am tired of this. We are going in circles Ultraviolet. All we are really debating is what is the definition of musician. I think that you are in the majority as to what the word "musician" means in the English language. Can we please stop all this intellectual masturbation, now?

Please, feel free to stop masturbating at any time you like.
No pressure here.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Music Universities will not "degree" you if you do not have a firm grasp on what all these patterns are called.
Even if you can hear & play your way brilliantly through all of them, as many "illiterate" but brilliant musician can.
But please do not consider me elitist in this regard.
I did not make the educational rules.

If you can jam... REALLY jam... I couldn't care less what you call any of it.

So your objection to Miley Cyrus is that she can't REALLY jam? How do you know? Yes, yes, I know you listened to her play on YouTube and you were unimpressed. I still say you're not in a position to judge and that your standards for Miley Cyrus might be a bit higher than you would judge someone who wasn't already successful. How do you feel about Avril Lavigne, Shannon Curfman, Kenny Wayne Shepherd or Johnny Lang? These were all young artists who made it big at a very young age. How do you feel about their success and status as musicians?

Also, I personally think universities degree anyone who passes the test regardless of what they actually grasp, but I admit to a personal bias against the educational system in general and a total lack of knowledge of how "musical" universities operate.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Did any of you all quit getting your panties in a wad long enough to read post 170? I'm not used to getting my posts unreplied to.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Did any of you all quit getting your panties in a wad long enough to read post 170? I'm not used to getting my posts unreplied to.

What's to be said? You pretty much nailed it.

 

[blackout]

So your objection to Miley Cyrus is that she can't REALLY jam? How do you know? Yes, yes, I know you listened to her play on YouTube and you were unimpressed. I still say you're not in a position to judge and that your standards for Miley Cyrus might be a bit higher than you would judge someone who wasn't already successful. How do you feel about Avril Lavigne, Shannon Curfman, Kenny Wayne Shepherd or Johnny Lang? These were all young artists who made it big at a very young age. How do you feel about their success and status as musicians?

Also, I personally think universities degree anyone who passes the test regardless of what they actually grasp, but I admit to a personal bias against the educational system in general and a total lack of knowledge of how "musical" universities operate.

THIS thread was about Miley.
I have seen no evidence to date that she can do anything more
than switch and strum a handful of basic chords on the guitar while singing.
Neither have I seen any evidence that she can pole dance.
But you know what? I really don't care.
really. I don't. And yet, I wish her well as a young growing musician.
(and a young growing pole dancer. )
I'm not one to go around "analyzing" people,
"critisizing" and "judging" them.
People do their own thing and I'm fine with that.
People like what they like and I'm fine with that.

I much prefer lifting people up.
But when people put themselves up on ridiculous icecream cart pedistals...
well...where can one possibly lift them to? The top of the pole?

I will not waste my precious life moments analyzing other people's lives
when I have my own life to live... and so much compelling music to analyze... and realize...

 

[Reverend Rick]

So lets all kiss and make up then. Agree to disagree.

 

[blackout]

So lets all kiss and make up then. Agree to disagree.

excellent idea.

let's leave it at that.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

So lets all kiss and make up then. Agree to disagree.

I'm not sure there is a disagreement. UV says she's a growing young musician and I agree.

 

[Reverend Rick]

At least she is not pregnant, on drugs, getting arrested, found drunk with no panties on stepping out of a limo or has a sex video on the internet. All in all, I say she is doing OK for a child star.