Mary mother of God

[JM2C]

and....

"Because I said so" is an answer that works only with children under the age of 5...I'm a mom I know.

So I will give you some parental insight. When, "because I said so" no longer works with your kids...the next fall back answer is, "because it is for your own good". That answer works until your kids are about teenagers. My kids are in their 20's now and I'm in my next stage of finding answers.


edited to change a few things because I thought you were 20 yo, but after double checking, I see you don't have an age listed...you may indeed be a parent and know some of this stuff.

Are you sure you’re in the right thread.

 

[JM2C]

I understand where youre coming from, I think. The scriptures are clouding your point. One or two with commentary would be best.


I dont see revenerating Mary as an add on to scripture. Its not part of the sacraments of the Church. People venerate Mary, the Church is not against honoring The Mother of Christ. If you go back to my last post, I edited it with def of worship and veneration. I also posted how I experienced a relationship with Christ. People do a lot of things against scripture.

For example, I can honor mary by kissing a statue of her. (Same as bowing to an elder from asian culture) but im not worshiping her anymore than bowing is worshiping the elder.

How did you know that it was the original image of Mary? I was told the same thing.

Meanwhile, someone else can kiss the statue believing the statue not God will bless them.


Both of us are kissing the statue. Im doing so for honir of the real Mary. The latter for the statue who is not Mary. Anti catholics focus on the latter, Catholics the former.


I dont in reality kiss statues, I feel uncomfortable. I use to sign the cross instead.


It is very very hard to explain to an anti catholic no matter how well intentioned they mean to be.

Justifying your action does not make you less guilty of idolatry.

 

[chlotilde]

EX 20:4 “ You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
EX 20:5 “ You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
Dt 4:15 You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully,
Dt 4:16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman,

It is a very Jewish understanding of these verses that you have (and even that isn't completely true from some of the stuff I read on RF from what Jews believe). The same understanding that they use to reject Jesus.

 

[chlotilde]

False! Nothing came from us that were not given to us by God. Please do not give Mary any credit that is due to God alone.

Mary was just an instrument of the power of God, [read Jeremiah 18, the Potter and the clay] like all the prophets, the apostles, the preachers, evangelist, teachers and all those who serve God.

I am asking quite literally here, where did Jesus's human material come from? (I'm trying to figure out what it is exactly that you think). I think it is, quite literally, the same place my human material comes from.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It isnt the original image of Mary. Thats not the point. When you worship Christ, you dont see if He should have brown hair in scripture rather than blond. Statue, wood, ink, lead, shoulsnt deter you to think you and anyone else are idol worshiping because they use these things, bible included, in their worship.
--
With justification...

Of course it does. When you justify your actions by scripture that doesnt mean I should take your word for it that you are the only one who interprets scripture correctly out of the over million of people who read the same thing, justifying their beliefs with scripture rather than sharing their view, experience so we know why they (and you) feel it is true without the bias of our own interpretation of scripture.

Thats why personal opinions are important in explaining your faith. They should complement scripture.

Long story short, if I kissed a statue (not Mary), I have not sinned. Remember God said that people can comment adultry just by thinking about it. If I kiss a statue without thinking of worshiping it, its the same concept, I have not sinned unless I worshiped it.

On the other hand, if I kissed the statue with the intent and heart of worship (as I said, that makes me uncomfortable), that would be against scripture.

I am not sure how you cannot see the difference between kissing a statue and worshiping a statue. I posted the difference between veneration and worship from the dictionary.

Kissing, bowing, are not worship without the intent of doing so. Adultry of the mind is not adultry unless you think of it.

I honestly dont see how this anti catholics can think catholics worship statues. The ONLY thing in Mass Catholics worship isthe Eucharist. Jesus Christ. When you add statues, it just makes me laugh in comparison to their worship to Christ.

No offense, but the claim from anti catholics make with rosarys, statues, and mary make me laugh and insulted. I just want to understand the logistics in that reasoning

How did you know that it was the original image of Mary? I was told the same thing.

Justifying your action does not make you less guilty of idolatry.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You may not try this literaly, of course. If you do, you dont have to say so. I just want you to get my point not agree with it.

If you have a picture of your loved one on the wall, bow to "it". Are you bowing to the picture and frame or your loved one? Hopefully, (scripture wise) you are to the frame and picture not the loved one.

Bow again, are you worshiping the picture by your bowing? I would hope not. Maybe you are in a culture that bows in respect but NEVER worship.

There is a difference between this:

Bowing to the frame in worship. "Oh frame. I love you so much. I worship you"

And this

"Mother (your bio mother), 'closing your eyes' thank you for taking care of me. Hope youre with Jesus in heaven." Now open your eyes and shift to face the wall, say the same prayer.

It makes no difference what you face because you are Not praying to the frame you are praying to God for your loved one who hopefully is in heaven. What you face (or kiss, bow, jump rope) should have NOTHING to do with your worship. You face the frame because you are reflecting on your mothers picture. You are not worshiping her in that picture. And hopefully, you are not worshiping the frame or your mother after she passed.

This is the same in Catholicism. To say a Catholic prays TO statues is ludicrous. I would never accuse you of praying to a frame because you are honoring your mother by the picture of her.
--
If your mother is deceased, I mean no disrespect. This is an example only.

I hope you see where im coming from. Im completely at lost from an anti catholic perspective

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Two posts cut short:

Can you explain in the minds of Catholics whether their veneration to Mary is the same they give to Christ without going by outside appearances?

Also, can you show me in the Church's teachings and in their Bible where it says a Catholic can worship Mary as they do Christ?

I dont know the minds of all Catholics.

 

[chlotilde]

I was trying to get you to think a little bit harder about how God works...isn't that our goal in studying the bible, understanding more about God? Everytime we read it, we might find some new thought we had never thought before.

It is a very Jewish understanding of these verses that you have (and even that isn't completely true from some of the stuff I read on RF from what Jews believe). The same understanding that they use to reject Jesus.

You know what…after a little thinking, I've deleted a previous post, and I am going to go about this a different way. You are so focused on the meaning of some word of idolatry, you are missing a far larger picture about God. It can happen when you try to pick apart a word too much. To me, Bible study isn’t about trying to understand words, but rather, trying to understand God. And the more I learn about God, the meanings of some of the things he does, and why he does them changes.

So here it is…

The OT 10 Commandments show a jealous God, one who doesn’t share. Now let’s jump to the NT and what does Jesus say when asked about the 10 Commandments. First, he says, Love God alone. (okay I say to myself, I can see how that might align with those first set of commandments) But then what does he say…Love your neighbor…wow! Does that sound like a jealous God to you? He is actually telling us to share our Love!

So why did the message change? Did God change? No. Then, it must have been that the people had changed. How had they changed? First off, they were no longer a people who (truly) believed that objects could hold magical god-like powers, they already believed that there was only one God...do you ever wonder why that scribe even asked that question? What was going on in his mind to feel the need to test Jesus....(hey, I'm a very introspective person, I like to try to figure out what people are thinking...that is why I ask questions).

You accuse us of having that belief, even when we say we don’t. (I’ll let God be the judge of that.) So who is still clinging onto that belief? I’ll tell you who.

If I travelled back to Moses time with my smart phone, they would think I was a God because I held this object with “magical” powers…perhaps I could convince them otherwise, perhaps not (that is what God was trying to convince them of in the OT,saying it in way that they could understand, but obviously some of them still didn’t get the message!). But if someone 4000 years from our future comes back with some amazing piece of technology, would he convince me he is God. Of course not…because I don’t believe objects hold magical god-like properties.

 

[JM2C]

It isnt the original image of Mary. Thats not the point.

Exactly the point of what God was saying in Exodus 20:3-5. Do not make idol. Do not bow down to idols.

 

[JM2C]

When you worship Christ, you dont see if He should have brown hair in scripture rather than blond. Statue, wood, ink, lead, shoulsnt deter you to think you and anyone else are idol worshiping because they use these things, bible included, in their worship.

Are you kidding me? When you close your eyes and meditate on the crucifix all you see is that false image of Jesus and that’s idolatry.

 

[JM2C]

--

With justification...


Of course it does. When you justify your actions by scripture that doesnt mean I should take your word for it that you are the only one who interprets scripture correctly out of the over million of people who read the same thing, justifying their beliefs with scripture rather than sharing their view, experience so we know why they (and you) feel it is true without the bias of our own interpretation of scripture.

These verses are as plain as you can get, almost self-explanatory, but people can still find a way around it so they could practice idolatries. Instead of correcting their perception on idolatries they make up rules or loopholes, like veneration, reverence, respect and some other things to justify their action.

The analogy of the Creator and His creation is; if one could admire the Creator why one cannot admire His creation, or admiring His creation is just like admiring the Creator.

Until you understand these verses and put them in practice you’ll never get out of that speculative philosophy.

EX 20:4 “ You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
EX 20:5 “ You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

Dt 4:15 You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully,
Dt 4:16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman,

 

[JM2C]

Thats why personal opinions are important in explaining your faith. They should complement scripture.

”The greater our knowledge increases the more our ignorance [lack of knowledge] unfolds.” -JFK

 

[JM2C]

Long story short, if I kissed a statue (not Mary), I have not sinned. Remember God said that people can comment adultry just by thinking about it. If I kiss a statue without thinking of worshiping it, its the same concept, I have not sinned unless I worshiped it.

On the other hand, if I kissed the statue with the intent and heart of worship (as I said, that makes me uncomfortable), that would be against scripture.

I am not sure how you cannot see the difference between kissing a statue and worshiping a statue. I posted the difference between veneration and worship from the dictionary.

Very subjective indeed. Only in the mind of the beholder. Another example of circumventing the scriptures..

 

[JM2C]

Kissing, bowing, are not worship without the intent of doing so. Adultry of the mind is not adultry unless you think of it.

Are you saying that one could only commit adultery if one thinks of it as adultery? So, one is not committing adultery, even though one is committing it, just because his/her mind says so? It’s like saying our minds can control the Law of God.

 

[JM2C]

I honestly dont see how this anti catholics can think catholics worship statues. The ONLY thing in Mass Catholics worship isthe Eucharist. Jesus Christ. When you add statues, it just makes me laugh in comparison to their worship to Christ.


No offense, but the claim from anti catholics make with rosarys, statues, and mary make me laugh and insulted. I just want to understand the logistics in that reasoning

We should base our debates on the scriptures alone and not from speculations or opinions.

 

[JM2C]

So here it is…


The OT 10 Commandments show a jealous God, one who doesn’t share.

Why would God share with other/different/heteros gods/idols?

Now let’s jump to the NT and what does Jesus say when asked about the 10 Commandments. First, he says, Love God alone. (okay I say to myself, I can see how that might align with those first set of commandments) But then what does he say…Love your neighbor…wow! Does that sound like a jealous God to you? He is actually telling us to share our Love!

by making idols? 1st 4 commandments are about God and the next 6 commandments are about us or IOW, Love God and love your neighbor.

So why did the message change? Did God change? No. Then, it must have been that the people had changed. How had they changed? First off, they were no longer a people who (truly) believed that objects could hold magical god-like powers, they already believed that there was only one God...do you ever wonder why that scribe even asked that question? What was going on in his mind to feel the need to test Jesus....(hey, I'm a very introspective person, I like to try to figure out what people are thinking...that is why I ask questions).


You accuse us of having that belief, even when we say we don’t. (I’ll let God be the judge of that.) So who is still clinging onto that belief? I’ll tell you who.


If I travelled back to Moses time with my smart phone, they would think I was a God because I held this object with “magical” powers…perhaps I could convince them otherwise, perhaps not (that is what God was trying to convince them of in the OT,saying it in way that they could understand, but obviously some of them still didn’t get the message!). But if someone 4000 years from our future comes back with some amazing piece of technology, would he convince me he is God. Of course not…because I don’t believe objects hold magical god-like properties.

You’re not only all the way out on left field, but actually out of the park with your analogies. You should read the bible.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I would never put kissing an object and adultry in the same category; but, my point is that kissing a statue or any object, pencil, table, is not worship.

Are you saying that one could only commit adultery if one thinks of it as adultery? So, one is not committing adultery, even though one is committing it, just because his/her mind says so? It’s like saying our minds can control the Law of God.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Weirdly enough, this is in their own teachings and their bible. You must be talking about what people do. Unfortuntely, we cant speak for someone else just because they are in a religious environment bowing to a block of stone.

Exactly the point of what God was saying in Exodus 20:3-5. Do not make idol. Do not bow down to idols.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Are you kidding me? When you close your eyes and meditate on the crucifix all you see is that false image of Jesus and that’s idolatry.

Oh my gosh. If I hadnt been a practicing Catholic, I can see your point. By experience (no, personal) experience, worship and reflection are two separate things. I can reflect on how my mother took care of me when I was sick, that isnt worship. I can worship her if I chose tondo so by reflection. Its not the act. Its the motive.

What magical powers do items have that make it an idol?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

”The greater our knowledge increases the more our ignorance [lack of knowledge] unfolds.” -JFK

Your opinions should reflect your belief. To put down your opinions it makes me wonder how you can share a testimony without quoting the bible verbatum.

Dont insult. Think about it. Commentary with scripture is valuable to the listener. It gives co text and person conviction oh behalf of the speaker. If I want to talk to Moses, I read the Bible. If I want to talk to you, I refer to you.

Its silly to put anyone down based an opinion.