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Mary mother of God
- Thread starter kjv4me2you
- Start date
JM2C
CHRISTIAN
You mean all the possible resources rcc could offer to draw people to Mary and the saints at the expense of the Lord Jesus on the cross?
Like Constantine, huh? Pagans bring your idols and we’ll mix it in a casserole with Christianity and make a great religion out it. It’s syncretism taken to extremes. Can we apply the narrow and wide gates now?
JM2C
CHRISTIAN
”Bare minimum requirements” to become a Christian? I have good news for you and it does not require anything but faith alone.
RO 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
RO 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
JM2C
CHRISTIAN
Please follow the link. Is worship of saints / Mary biblical?
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
commentary? What am I looking for and how does it relate to the definition of worship in my post?
JM2C
CHRISTIAN
Yes, Carlita
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
JM2C
CHRISTIAN
Did you understand what you’ve C&P here? Please compare this C&P to your statement here.
JM2C
CHRISTIAN
We are still talking about "worship", and this link Is worship of saints / Mary biblical?will help you understand the meaning of it.
chlotilde
Madame Curie
Amen to that!
I was not going to respond here…but after a little thinking, I thought I’d tell you why I didn’t want to at first (lol, the paradoxical response for no response). Quite simply, I don’t like arguments of slinging Bible verses around, like one verse trumps another verse. It tears apart the Word of God figuratively, literally and, God forbid…spiritually. I realize this is a debate forum and many are here to do just that. I'll explain my beliefs, but I am not here to say my beliefs trump yours. To me, it is not about winning, because to win would mean I am tearing apart what you believe...not something I want to do.
We obviously have subjective meanings for idolatry, and that’s a good thing (IMO)…because if I held to some definitions I’d be an atheist…I know, because I once did. You must think we are stupid if we look at a statue and believe it is something more than a painted rock.
When I was a kid I had this image of God as being some old dude who sat in the clouds (because weren’t we made in his image…I thought). I became a young adult who saw that image as a worthless idol and said pffft to religion…it is all about making men into gods or gods into men.
Fast forward about 15 years and I’m talking to an anti-God friend of mine (I may have been a no-God person, but I was never anti-God). At some point in our discussion I say to her, “Do you really think those Christians believe God is some old dude sitting in the clouds?”…well boom, that’s when you have one of those lightbulb moments where you see you accuse someone of exactly what you had done!
I realized I had put God into some box of imagery making him a worthless idol. It wasn’t the imagery that was wrong (the OT is written with all this imagery!), it was that I had put God there, in some box. Once I took God out of that box of imagery, my image of who God is, changed drastically sending me back to belief.
It was my subjective/personal lesson in what constitutes the difference between imagery and idolatry. That said…if someone still holds an image of God as an old dude in the clouds, I am not saying that is bad or wrong or idolatry…it works for some people. We are all on different journeys.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I know what worship is. Why do you need to know how you view worship?
What does this have to do with Mary; I am losed.
What does this have to do with Mary; I am losed.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I had to review the posts. I said you may have had a misplaced devotion. Mary is not worshiped (def I gave from dictionary) as Christ. The dictionary says worship is focused on deities. Catholism doesnt believe Mary is God nor Christ as God. As I said, in America the Churches do not put focus on Mary and no Churchs Mass replace Mary with God.
So we revere Mary, pray to her, ask her and the saints to pray for us and we never worship her.
That is not taught in the Church to worship anyone other than Christ. Anyone who replaces Mary with Christ in my opinion has a misplaced devotion.
I see it a lot in foriegn cultures. Im going by Church teaches not by what I observe people do. Thats the danger I see in anti catholic vieww. They focus on the people not Church teachings. Some kiss statues, that must be church teaching. False.
So please tell me what your getting at. Are you agreeing, disagreeing?
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Also, what your web site says is true that we venerate Mary (as we call it). It also says there is nothing wrong with respecting her. The web site also going by what people do not what the Church teaches. In Mass we do not go through Mary to get to God. If you go to Mass, watch how who the priest is refering to and biblical passages read. Also, the Eucharist is the core of the Church. The Eucharist is Jesus, Not Mary.
Also another thing I love about Catholicism is that we participate in Jesus life, death, and resurrection. In Jesus life, He had a Mother, father, siblings, friends, followers. We dont put them over Christ, however they are alive so just like brothers and sisters on earth we commune with them WITH Christ.
Statues and images were used because people couldnt read. Also, the Church did not let lay people read scripture, so that is how they identified with God is through images as well as scripture read in Mass. In America today we are allowed to read our Bibles. Images are not seen as worship, which is silly, but mirrors of who we worship. When I was Catholic practicing, I never worshiped statues. To say that I did is a lie to me and to many catholics out there.
I asked this in another thread. Do the images used in churches somehow make a persons faith in Christ and Christ only somehow invalid?
Do images and statues have magic powers according to God that renders a persons faith in Christ worhless when he or she prays in front of a statue?
Got questions goes by what people do. I have never read the claims it makes in the Church teachings itself. Anyone who does what that link is saying has a misplaced devotion. Mass is about Christ and Christ only.
EDIT
Worship:
to honor or respect (someone or something) as a god Worship - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Venerate: regard with great respect; revere.
Venerate - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Catholics venerate Mary. The Church does not teach to worship Mary as God.
Side note: When I had practiced Catholicism, this is how I saw and experienced it personally.
When I go to Mary (protestant thinking and American mindset) I paid my respects. I believe spirits are alive after our body dies. I do not separate people from others as if they are more important. I pray to her for guidence because she would be someone who knows from a womans point of view to help my mother out. It is the same as going to a woman on earth and asking her advice. I see no division between life on earth and life after death.
This is how I venerated Mary and the saints.
Worship.
With God it was COMPLETELY different. "He" as I try to see Him as a being, IS my life. So I dont need to ask for what he already provides. Also, I see no correlation between my worship (puting Him abovr all-Mary included) and veneration. My life is a prayer to Him. He is in the food I eat, the water I drink, the air I breathe. He IS life itself.
I worshiped Christ by dying In Him. I cannot do that with Mary. My sins were washed at baptism by the Holy spirit NOT Mary. I repented to God, NOT Mary. I consumed Jesus flesh and blood NOT Mary.
These are the differences. I cannot speak for other people just what I had practices and what the Church teaches.
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JM2C
CHRISTIAN
we respect elders but we don't kneel in front of them.
Ac 10:25 As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence.
Ac 10:26 But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I added more to my post so youd understand.
Some people bow, some kneel, some sing, some dance, some pray and so forth. Many folk cultures do this with their elders and deceased elders. If you asked themnif they are worshiped by these methods, many would say no. They understand the difference between respect and worship even if they stand on their head in respect and do jumping jacks in worship. Its from the heart not external appearences. If you felt you were worshiping Mary by praying the rosary, that is against church teachings..so yes, its against scripture. Some people have misplaced devotion. They learned one set of rituals to do things and they dont see the difference until they are much older.
One lady at a Catholi retreat told me she was not allowed to read her bible. She finally had a chance to read it and it "strengthened" her faith. She found out what she was doing were rituals because she had misplaced devotion in them. Sshe said nownshe can worship Christ the way the Church intended not by replacing the rituals with faith but by acting in congregational worship with faith. She also foumd the real meaning of the Eucharist. So it is not a new age mystical experience. Its the mana of life and blood of sacrifice. Her whole perspective of the Church and her participation in Christ life, death, and resurrection changed for the better.
I like that testimony. When you have misplaved devotion, it will lead you away from the Church. Its sad but people prefer different ways to worship Christ.
JM2C
CHRISTIAN
making rules as you move along is not a bad idea if you are building a new business from the ground up. Rules or examples a Christian should follow were written by the apostles long before the bible was canonized. Some challenged the apostles’ writings and added or adulterate the word of God so they could make their own rules. How do we know a man-made rule compare to the apostles’?
The Lord Jesus once said to Peter “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men. –Matt 16:23”
The spiritual “things of God” or the right doctrine against “the things of men” or “the doctrine of Satan.”
The Lord Jesus refused “the things of men” or “the doctrine of Satan” and obeyed instead the “things of God”. He refused to become a political opportunist. He would not promote his kingdom by organizing a revolt against the existing political powers or by promising a dole to all who would join his banner.
They, John, James, and Peter and all the disciples, and the Jews, do not have any spiritual understanding from the scriptures/OT before the resurrection, and only after the resurrection of The Lord Jesus did they understand and believe what the scriptures/OT were saying. Read John 2:22
IOW, the apostles were not influence by the Scriptures/OT to believe The Lord’s passion before His crucifixion, burial, and resurrection, only after the resurrection when John and Peter saw the empty tomb did they believe The Lord Jesus’ predictions of His passion and resurrection, and only then did they understand from the Scriptures/OT what The Lord Jesus was telling them in,
Mt 16:21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
And since Peter still has no understanding from the Scriptures/OT
Mt 16:22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”
“Never, Lord” “This shall never happen to you” we need an earthly king to fight the Romans and place me and John or James on your right and left hand side.
Mt 16:23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.”
“The things of men” or “The doctrine of Satan” in the mind of Peter, but after the resurrection The Lord Jesus opened their mind to understand the Scriptures/OT.
Lk 24:45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures/OT.
I do believe that God opened my heart to understand the Scriptures, both the OT and the NT.
chlotilde
Madame Curie
I've hashed this out already, I guess you haven't read the whole thread here, so I'll summarize. First, the OP doesn't believe Jesus is God...so I totally understand why he would think Mary Mother of God is crazy. But that doctrine is to show that we have the following beliefs.
1. Jesus is God
2. Jesus is fully Divine and fully human
3. Jesus was fully Divine in the womb of Mary (IOW, he didn't become God outside of the womb)
4. Mary supplied his human material.(IOW, he didn't "magically poof" into womb)
and....
"Because I said so" is an answer that works only with children under the age of 5...I'm a mom I know.
So I will give you some parental insight. When, "because I said so" no longer works with your kids...the next fall back answer is, "because it is for your own good". That answer works until your kids are about teenagers. My kids are in their 20's now and I'm in my next stage of finding answers.
edited to change a few things because I thought you were 20 yo, but after double checking, I see you don't have an age listed...you may indeed be a parent and know some of this stuff.
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Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I understand where youre coming from, I think. The scriptures are clouding your point. One or two with commentary would be best.
I dont see revenerating Mary as an add on to scripture. Its not part of the sacraments of the Church. People venerate Mary, the Church is not against honoring The Mother of Christ. If you go back to my last post, I edited it with def of worship and veneration. I also posted how I experienced a relationship with Christ. People do a lot of things against scripture. For example, I can honor mary by kissing a statue of her. (Same as bowing to an elder from asian culture) but im not worshiping her anymore than bowing is worshiping the elder.
Meanwhile, someone else can kiss the statue believing the statue not God will bless them.
Both of us are kissing the statue. Im doing so for honir of the real Mary. The latter for the statue who is not Mary. Anti catholics focus on the latter, Catholics the former.
I dont in reality kiss statues, I feel uncomfortable. I use to sign the cross instead.
It is very very hard to explain to an anti catholic no matter how well intentioned they mean to be.
I dont see revenerating Mary as an add on to scripture. Its not part of the sacraments of the Church. People venerate Mary, the Church is not against honoring The Mother of Christ. If you go back to my last post, I edited it with def of worship and veneration. I also posted how I experienced a relationship with Christ. People do a lot of things against scripture. For example, I can honor mary by kissing a statue of her. (Same as bowing to an elder from asian culture) but im not worshiping her anymore than bowing is worshiping the elder.
Meanwhile, someone else can kiss the statue believing the statue not God will bless them.
Both of us are kissing the statue. Im doing so for honir of the real Mary. The latter for the statue who is not Mary. Anti catholics focus on the latter, Catholics the former.
I dont in reality kiss statues, I feel uncomfortable. I use to sign the cross instead.
It is very very hard to explain to an anti catholic no matter how well intentioned they mean to be.
JM2C
CHRISTIAN
We could all read and understand any instructions, but if we don’t follow or understand what we are reading, then, what is the sense of reading the instructions in the first place? It’s like building furniture with intricate parts. We have to read the instructions first and follow the steps on how to build furniture with intricate parts. Let’s for example say, we did read the instructions but did not follow it and just started building it, anyway we want, without following the right steps. Do you think you can build it efficiently? No! You may not be able to build it at all, or It would take longer but ends up following the right steps, if it’s not too late.
Instructions were given to us by God through the prophets’ and the apostles’ writings and all we have to do is read and try to understand them.
You really need to read and understand these verses. I did not say “believe” but “understand”. You don’t have to believe it first, but try to understand it first and follow it as if it was an instruction on how to build furniture with intricate parts. IOW, do not deviate from the instruction and believe me you will end up with the same conclusion.
A premise, if followed correctly, always ends up with the right conclusion.
EX 20:4 “ You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
EX 20:5 “ You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
Dt 4:15 You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully,
Dt 4:16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman,
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JM2C
CHRISTIAN
False! Nothing came from us that were not given to us by God. Please do not give Mary any credit that is due to God alone.
Mary was just an instrument of the power of God, [read Jeremiah 18, the Potter and the clay] like all the prophets, the apostles, the preachers, evangelist, teachers and all those who serve God.
RO 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.”
Phil 2:11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
All glory to God.