Mary mother of God

[JM2C]

God said “women” at the Wedding of Cana, and He said “woman” while dying on the cross. The beginning and the end of his of His earthly ministry.

I don’t know where you got that “women –N-GFPlural” from, but it clearly says “woman –N-GFSingular” in KJV, ASV and NIV in John 2:4.

 

[JM2C]

John 20 Amen, amen I say to you, that you shall lament and weep, but the world shall rejoice; and you shall be made sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.[21]A woman, when she is in labour, hath sorrow, because her hour is come; but when she hath brought forth the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.Why does Jesus say "woman" and not "women"?

Why does Jesus say "a man is born" and not "a child is born"?

Could there be a two-fold meaning here?

[22] So also you now indeed have sorrow;

Does Jesus mean the disciples will have labor pains, or is Jesus using the term " a woman" giving birth as a personification of the Church, suffering through the Crucifixion? If Jesus is speaking symbolically, are the disciples whom He is addressing symbols too? Do you think Jesus is speaking off-the-cuff when He says, "woman"?

God said “woman” in Genesis 3:15, and He said “woman” in Rev. 12:17 The only two places in scripture where you have a woman and a serpentin the same verse.. Genesis and Revelation, the beginning and the end of the Bible.

Another good example of analogical extrapolation. A table has 4 legs, the same as a cat or a dog, but that is as far as you can analogize it, because you cannot place a cup of coffee on top of a cat or a dog like you would on a table.

JN 16:16 “ A little while, and you will no longer see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me.”

“no longer/OUKETI see Me –John 16:16”. The lord Jesus, the son of David according to the flesh –Romans 1:3, after the suffering and death on the cross, will no longer/OUKETI be seen as the human Jesus, but as the resurrected Christ, the Son of God –Romans 1:4. JN 20:28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

The disciples were puzzled by this and talked among themselves the meaning of “A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me’;” and in answering them the Lord Jesus Christ gave them an example in verse 21

JN 16:21 “ Whenever a woman is in labor she has pain, because her hour has come; but when she gives birth to the child, she no longer remembers the anguish because of the joy that a child has been born into the world.

And if you follow the death on the cross as “a woman in labor” and the resurrection as “when she gives birth to the child” and then relate this to Romans 1:3-4
RO 1:3 concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh,
RO 1:4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,

Then you would probably understand that the meaning of “A little while, and you will not see Me [as the human Jesus –Romans 1:3]; and again a little while, and you will see Me’; [as the resurrected Christ, the Son of God –Romans 1:4]”

 

[JM2C]

Why is it, that when a non-Catholic or Protestant, who converts to Catholicism, has his faith embellished (not replaced), and maintains a respect for their former faith, but some ex-Catholics become anti-Catholics???

We are not talking about jobs here, we are talking about souls.

 

[JM2C]

No, that is not what I said. Don't build strawmen ( to put it in polite terms).
Listen, I can see from other posts, you have a great love of God! Embrace that and learn. As do I! (there is something you wrote in another thread that gave me inspiration)

No, I never made that suggestion.

Like I said before, we should stick to the subject at hand, and the subject of our debate is “intercession”.

 

[JM2C]

What you mean is you were deceived by evangelicals or the Iglesia Ni Cristo who told you Catholics don't read the Bible, and a pack of other lies.

The gap between “I was a catholic until I read the bible” should be understood as nothing came in between but the word of God. IOW, no evangelicals or INC told me anything about rcc’s false doctrines, but the word of God, or the bible.

By the grace of God, these verses in Isaiah are the one that changed me.

I garbage all them statues made of woods, stones and plastics after I read these verses. What I meant is, I literally put them all in the garbage.

The Folly of Idolatry

ISA 44:9 Those who fashion a graven image are all of them futile, and their precious things are of no profit; even their own witnesses fail to see or know, so that they will be put to shame.

ISA 44:10 Who has fashioned a god or cast an idol to no profit?

ISA 44:11 Behold, all his companions will be put to shame, for the craftsmen themselves are mere men. Let them all assemble themselves, let them stand up, let them tremble, let them together be put to shame.

ISA 44:12 The man shapes iron into a cutting tool and does his work over the coals, fashioning it with hammers and working it with his strong arm. He also gets hungry and his strength fails; he drinks no water and becomes weary.

ISA 44:13 Another shapes wood, he extends a measuring line; he outlines it with red chalk. He works it with planes and outlines it with a compass, and makes it like the form of a man, like the beauty of man, so that it may sit in a house.

ISA 44:14 Surely he cuts cedars for himself, and takes a cypress or an oak and raises it for himself among the trees of the forest. He plants a fir, and the rain makes it grow.

ISA 44:15 Then it becomes something for a man to burn, so he takes one of them and warms himself; he also makes a fire to bake bread. He also makes a god and worships it; he makes it a graven image and falls down before it.

ISA 44:16 Half of it he burns in the fire; over this half he eats meat as he roasts a roast and is satisfied. He also warms himself and says, “Aha! I am warm, I have seen the fire.”

ISA 44:17 But the rest of it he makes into a god, his graven image. He falls down before it and worships; he also prays to it and says, “Deliver me, for you are my god.”

ISA 44:18 They do not know, nor do they understand, for He has smeared over their eyes so that they cannot see and their hearts so that they cannot comprehend.

ISA 44:19 No one recalls, nor is there knowledge or understanding to say, “I have burned half of it in the fire and also have baked bread over its coals. I roast meat and eat it. Then I make the rest of it into an abomination, I fall down before a block of wood!”

ISA 44:20 He feeds on ashes; a deceived heart has turned him aside. And he cannot deliver himself, nor say, “ Is there not a lie in my right hand?”

 

[kjv4me2you]

Anyone know why my alert is not working ? Maybe excommunicated?



willyah

 

[kepha31]

The gap between “I was a catholic until I read the bible” should be understood as nothing came in between but the word of God. IOW, no evangelicals or INC told me anything about rcc’s false doctrines, but the word of God, or the bible.

By the grace of God, these verses in Isaiah are the one that changed me.

I garbage all them statues made of woods, stones and plastics after I read these verses. What I meant is, I literally put them all in the garbage.

The Folly of Idolatry

ISA 44:9 Those who fashion a graven image are all of them futile, and their precious things are of no profit; even their own witnesses fail to see or know, so that they will be put to shame.

ISA 44:10 Who has fashioned a god or cast an idol to no profit?

ISA 44:11 Behold, all his companions will be put to shame, for the craftsmen themselves are mere men. Let them all assemble themselves, let them stand up, let them tremble, let them together be put to shame.

ISA 44:12 The man shapes iron into a cutting tool and does his work over the coals, fashioning it with hammers and working it with his strong arm. He also gets hungry and his strength fails; he drinks no water and becomes weary.

ISA 44:13 Another shapes wood, he extends a measuring line; he outlines it with red chalk. He works it with planes and outlines it with a compass, and makes it like the form of a man, like the beauty of man, so that it may sit in a house.

ISA 44:14 Surely he cuts cedars for himself, and takes a cypress or an oak and raises it for himself among the trees of the forest. He plants a fir, and the rain makes it grow.

ISA 44:15 Then it becomes something for a man to burn, so he takes one of them and warms himself; he also makes a fire to bake bread. He also makes a god and worships it; he makes it a graven image and falls down before it.

ISA 44:16 Half of it he burns in the fire; over this half he eats meat as he roasts a roast and is satisfied. He also warms himself and says, “Aha! I am warm, I have seen the fire.”

ISA 44:17 But the rest of it he makes into a god, his graven image. He falls down before it and worships; he also prays to it and says, “Deliver me, for you are my god.”

ISA 44:18 They do not know, nor do they understand, for He has smeared over their eyes so that they cannot see and their hearts so that they cannot comprehend.

ISA 44:19 No one recalls, nor is there knowledge or understanding to say, “I have burned half of it in the fire and also have baked bread over its coals. I roast meat and eat it. Then I make the rest of it into an abomination, I fall down before a block of wood!”

ISA 44:20 He feeds on ashes; a deceived heart has turned him aside. And he cannot deliver himself, nor say, “ Is there not a lie in my right hand?”

I'm afraid you don't know your bible very well, none of these verses refer to statues of Jesus, Mary, or saints.
The Scripture is very specific about what constitutes an idol. It is the image of a creature (bird or animal) that is worshipped as a god. One has to look at when the Law was given to the people to find the clue as to God's original meaning. The Hebrew had been rescued from Egypt by God. If you look closely at the ten plagues for instance you can see that each plague represented the destruction of the gods of Egypt. By bringing the plagues upon Egypt God was showing that He was mightier than any human understanding of a god. The Hebrew had been affected by these gods in Egypt and in their hearts they wanted to continue to follow these gods. The history of Israel is full of examples of the apostasy of Israel as it fell into this form of idol worship and was punished for doing so. The Golden Calf incident was an attempt by the Hebrew to worship the false gods that they had left behind in Egypt. Before the Golden Calf incident the Hebrew did not have to offer animal sacrifices, yet after that incident they had to do so. Why? Because God wanted to make sure that the Israelites were forced to renounce animal worship.

“You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth” (Exodus 20:4)

According to you, all religious statuary is idolatry. If you were to "search the scriptures", you would find the opposite is true. God forbade the worship of statues, but he did not forbid the religious use of statues. Instead, he actually commanded their use in religious contexts! Despite appearances, we know Exodus 20 is not a prohibition against making “any likeness of anything” in a strict sense because we clearly see God either commanding or praising the making of images and statues in multiple biblical texts (see Exodus 25:18; Numbers 21:8-9; I Kings 6:23-28, 9:3). Just five chapters after this so-called prohibition against statues, for example, God commands Moses to make statues representing two angels to be placed over the mercy seat of the Ark of the Covenant:

And you shall make two cherubim of gold… The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another…. And you shall put the mercy seat on the top of the ark… There I will meet with you (Ex. 25:18-22).

According to you, God is commanding idolatry and contradicts himself.

Exodus 20:4 is part of the first commandment that begins in verse 3 and stretches through part of verse five:

You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.

Verses 3 and 5 make clear that this commandment is not simply condemning making statues; It is condemning making gods that you bow down to or serve. In a word, this first commandment forbids idolatry, i.e., the worship of anything or anyone other than God. The Catholic Church condemns this as well.

David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.

Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim."

During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to "make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:8–9).

One had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations.

Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.

If you still think a nativity scene is idolatry, you have my sympathy.

If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these "graven" images, they would be practicing the "idolatry" of which they accuse Catholics. But there’s no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids the worship of images as gods, but he doesn’t ban the making of images. If he had, religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and all similar things would be banned. But, as the case of the bronze serpent shows, God does not even forbid the ritual use of religious images.

It is when people begin to adore a statue as a god that the Lord becomes angry. Thus when people did start to worship the bronze serpent as a snake-god (whom they named "Nehushtan"), the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4).

Sometimes anti-Catholics cite Deuteronomy 5:9, where God said concerning idols, "You shall not bow down to them." Since many Catholics sometimes bow or kneel in front of statues of Jesus and the saints, anti-Catholics confuse the legitimate veneration of a sacred image with the sin of idolatry.

Though bowing can be used as a posture in worship, not all bowing is worship. In Japan, people show respect by bowing in greeting (the equivalent of the Western handshake). Similarly, a person can kneel before a king without worshipping him as a god. In the same way, a Catholic who may kneel in front of a statue while praying isn’t worshipping the statue or even praying to it, any more than the Protestant who kneels with a Bible in his hands when praying is worshipping the Bible or praying to it.
Do Catholics Worship Statues? | Catholic Answers

Col. 1:15 - the only image of God that Catholics worship is Jesus Christ, who is the "image" (Greek "eikon") of the invisible God.

 

[kjv4me2you]

I'm afraid you don't know your bible very well, none of these verses refer to statues of Jesus, Mary, or saints.
The Scripture is very specific about what constitutes an idol. It is the image of a creature (bird or animal) that is worshipped as a god. One has to look at when the Law was given to the people to find the clue as to God's original meaning. The Hebrew had been rescued from Egypt by God. If you look closely at the ten plagues for instance you can see that each plague represented the destruction of the gods of Egypt. By bringing the plagues upon Egypt God was showing that He was mightier than any human understanding of a god. The Hebrew had been affected by these gods in Egypt and in their hearts they wanted to continue to follow these gods. The history of Israel is full of examples of the apostasy of Israel as it fell into this form of idol worship and was punished for doing so. The Golden Calf incident was an attempt by the Hebrew to worship the false gods that they had left behind in Egypt. Before the Golden Calf incident the Hebrew did not have to offer animal sacrifices, yet after that incident they had to do so. Why? Because God wanted to make sure that the Israelites were forced to renounce animal worship.

“You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth” (Exodus 20:4)

According to you, all religious statuary is idolatry. If you were to "search the scriptures", you would find the opposite is true. God forbade the worship of statues, but he did not forbid the religious use of statues. Instead, he actually commanded their use in religious contexts! Despite appearances, we know Exodus 20 is not a prohibition against making “any likeness of anything” in a strict sense because we clearly see God either commanding or praising the making of images and statues in multiple biblical texts (see Exodus 25:18; Numbers 21:8-9; I Kings 6:23-28, 9:3). Just five chapters after this so-called prohibition against statues, for example, God commands Moses to make statues representing two angels to be placed over the mercy seat of the Ark of the Covenant:

And you shall make two cherubim of gold… The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another…. And you shall put the mercy seat on the top of the ark… There I will meet with you (Ex. 25:18-22).

According to you, God is commanding idolatry and contradicts himself.

Exodus 20:4 is part of the first commandment that begins in verse 3 and stretches through part of verse five:

You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.

Verses 3 and 5 make clear that this commandment is not simply condemning making statues; It is condemning making gods that you bow down to or serve. In a word, this first commandment forbids idolatry, i.e., the worship of anything or anyone other than God. The Catholic Church condemns this as well.

David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.

Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim."

During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to "make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:8–9).

One had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations.

Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.

If you still think a nativity scene is idolatry, you have my sympathy.

If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these "graven" images, they would be practicing the "idolatry" of which they accuse Catholics. But there’s no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids the worship of images as gods, but he doesn’t ban the making of images. If he had, religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and all similar things would be banned. But, as the case of the bronze serpent shows, God does not even forbid the ritual use of religious images.

It is when people begin to adore a statue as a god that the Lord becomes angry. Thus when people did start to worship the bronze serpent as a snake-god (whom they named "Nehushtan"), the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4).

Sometimes anti-Catholics cite Deuteronomy 5:9, where God said concerning idols, "You shall not bow down to them." Since many Catholics sometimes bow or kneel in front of statues of Jesus and the saints, anti-Catholics confuse the legitimate veneration of a sacred image with the sin of idolatry.

Though bowing can be used as a posture in worship, not all bowing is worship. In Japan, people show respect by bowing in greeting (the equivalent of the Western handshake). Similarly, a person can kneel before a king without worshipping him as a god. In the same way, a Catholic who may kneel in front of a statue while praying isn’t worshipping the statue or even praying to it, any more than the Protestant who kneels with a Bible in his hands when praying is worshipping the Bible or praying to it.
Do Catholics Worship Statues? | Catholic Answers

Col. 1:15 - the only image of God that Catholics worship is Jesus Christ, who is the "image" (Greek "eikon") of the invisible God.

I think my thread "Mary Mother of God" has been hijacked.I get no "alerts" anymore.

willyah

 

[chlotilde]

I think my thread "Mary Mother of God" has been hijacked.I get no "alerts" anymore.

willyah

can you hear me now? lol

 

[chlotilde]

Like I said before, we should stick to the subject at hand, and the subject of our debate is “intercession”.

hey, you're the one the brought up Jesus needing a mediator (I would never think such a thing). You ever wonder what the difference between a mediator and an intercessor are? It is just a matter of degrees up a ladder. Jesus is at the top.

Anyway, I'll explain this a different way, trying to use only Bible verses since some may not know where those verses are.
1:Tim 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people.

You may believe the saints are dead brothers and sisters, but I believe Luke over you.
Luke 20: 38He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive

The Saints in heaven are witness to us here on earth, they see and hear what goes on.
Heb 12:1 we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses

They know our affairs here on earth. Besides the story of Moses and Elijah who actually VISIT earth and show they know what is going on, we also know those in heaven rejoice for us
Luke 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents.

The Saints in heaven actually have jobs to do.
Matt 25:21 ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’

One of those jobs is actually to Judge us.
1 Cor. 6: 2Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world?

And something else they do is pray to God.
Rev. 5: 8 and when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders threw themselves to the ground before the Lamb. Each of them had a harp and golden bowls full of incense which are the prayers of the saints.

Their prayers are far more effective than ours because they are already in a righteous state.
James 5:16 Therefore … pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

and guess what they pray for...stuff to happen here on Earth (because what could they possibly need in heaven?)
Rev 6: 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Master, holy and true, before you judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?”

They are praying for you, whether you ask for it or not
1 Samuel 12:22 The Lord will not abandon his people because he wants to uphold his great reputation. The Lord was pleased to make you his own people. 23 As far as I am concerned, far be it from me to sin against the Lord by ceasing to pray for you.

 

[kepha31]

I think my thread "Mary Mother of God" has been hijacked.I get no "alerts" anymore.

willyah

I think you have to quote someone; you get an alert only when you get a reply to your quote, such as this one

 

[JM2C]

Intercession of the Saints was not started by Constantine, and not a Catholic invention. It came to us in kernel form from the Jews.

Idolatries from the Jews? No! Maimonides changed the word “echad, a united ONE” into “yachid, an only one” because he thought the Trinity was a form of polytheism.

Luther and Calvin, whom you follow, were anti-Semites and it shows in their theology.

Antisemitism (also spelled Anti-Semitism or anti-semitism) is prejudice against, hatred of, or discrimination against Jews as a national, ethnic, religious or racial group. -Wiki

Were they, Luther and Calvin, really guilty of anything under or within the guidelines in regards to the meaning of the word “Anti-Semitism”? No!

but some ex-Catholics become anti-Catholics???

Do you think I’m guilty of anti-catholic? No!

Luther, Calvin and the evangelicals of today, including me, are not guilty of anything other than of our sins from God on which, by His grace, we were forgiven through Jesus Christ. Therefore, we are not guilty of anything. No more condemnation for the True Christians. “Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. –Romans 8:1”

“Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. –Romans 8:33-34”

The Lord Jesus Christ is the “ONE WHO DIED, YES, RATHER WHO WAS RAISED, WHO IS AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, WHO ALSO” interceding between the True Christians and God in heaven.

I don’t see Mary’s and any other saints’ names here, do you?

 

[JM2C]

I'm afraid you don't know your bible very well, none of these verses refer to statues of Jesus, Mary, or saints.

Really? Did you really think that those pictures of Jesus, Mary, or any saints that you worshipped were the true identical pictures of them? The Lord Jesus Christ and Mary were not white-skinned people.

Please read and understand these verses.
JN 4:23 “But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
JN 4:24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

 

[JM2C]

I heard and read this classic argument from rcc so many times already.

Just five chapters after this so-called prohibition against statues, for example, God commands Moses to make statues representing two angels to be placed over the mercy seat of the Ark of the Covenant:

And you shall make two cherubim of gold… The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another…. And you shall put the mercy seat on the top of the ark… There I will meet with you (Ex. 25:18-22).

Exactly! God commanded Moses, but did He command rcc to make idols? NO!

The Scripture is very specific about what constitutes an idol.

“You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth” (Exodus 20:4)

Here we have 3 places where one cannot make idols: “in heaven above”, “in the earth beneath” and “in the water under the earth”. IOW, God did NOT leave a space between “heaven, earth and under the earth” where one could make an idol.

According to you, God is commanding idolatry and contradicts himself.

Never did God contradicted Himself. It’s the people who cannot understand are the one who always contradicts God. God specifically commanded Moses to “make two cherubim”. God did not command rcc to make idols.

 

[JM2C]

Exodus 20:4 is part of the first commandment that begins in verse 3 and stretches through part of verse five:

You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.

Verses 3 and 5 make clear that this commandment is not simply condemning making statues;It is condemning makinggodsthat youbow down to or serve.In a word, this first commandment forbidsidolatry, i.e., the worship of anything or anyone other than God.The Catholic Church condemns this as well.

AC 10:25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him.

AC 10:26 But Peter raised him up, saying, “ Stand up; I too am just a man.”

 

[Wharton]

Were they, Luther and Calvin, really guilty of anything under or within the guidelines in regards to the meaning of the word “Anti-Semitism”? No!

You better read some of Luther's stuff regarding the Jews. He was a really big anti-Semite. BTW, you may also want to read his writings on Mary as you would be more than shocked. I believe from my past readings that his tomb is under or near, uh oh, a statue of Mary being crowned Queen of Heaven.

 

[JM2C]

David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all,"included statues of angels.

Same argument gets the same answer. God did not command rcc to make idols.

Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave werecarved likenesses of cherubim."


During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to "make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:8–9).


One had tolookat thebronze statueof the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations.


Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.


If you still think a nativity scene is idolatry, you have my sympathy.


If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these "graven" images, they would be practicing the "idolatry" of which they accuse Catholics. But there’s no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids theworshipof images as gods, but he doesn’t ban the making of images. If he had, religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and all similar things would be banned. But, as the case of the bronze serpent shows, God does not even forbid the ritual use of religious images.


It is when people begin to adore a statue as a god that the Lord becomes angry. Thus when peopledidstart to worship the bronze serpent as a snake-god (whom they named "Nehushtan"), the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4).


Sometimes anti-Catholics cite Deuteronomy 5:9, where God said concerning idols, "You shall not bow down to them." Since many Catholics sometimes bow or kneel in front of statues of Jesus and the saints, anti-Catholics confuse the legitimate veneration of a sacred image with the sin of idolatry.


Though bowing can be used as a posture in worship, not all bowing is worship. In Japan, people show respect by bowing in greeting (the equivalent of the Western handshake). Similarly, a person can kneel before a king without worshipping him as a god. In the same way, a Catholic who may kneel in front of a statue while praying isn’t worshipping the statue or even praying toit, any more than the Protestant who kneels with a Bible in his hands when praying is worshipping the Bible or praying toit.

Do Catholics Worship Statues? | Catholic Answers


Col. 1:15 - the only image of God that Catholics worship is Jesus Christ, who is the "image" (Greek "eikon") of the invisible God.

What a way to justify idolatries. You would search the whole bible just to find verses that could justify your doctrines. When you kneel in front of a statue and talk to that statue, you are literally speaking and worshiping a mute idol, eyes that cannot see, ears that cannot hear, lips that cannot speak, feet that cannot walk, hands that cannot touch. IOW, you are talking to a piece of dead wood.

Isa 44:19 The person who made the idol never stops to reflect, “Why, it’s just a block of wood! I burned half of it for heat and used it to bake my bread and roast my meat. How can the rest of it be a god? Should I bow down to worship a chunk of wood?”

Isa 44:20 The poor, deluded fool feeds on ashes. He is trusting something that can give him no help at all. Yet he cannot bring himself to ask, “Is this thing, this idol that I’m holding in my hand, a lie?”

 

[Wharton]

God did not command rcc to make idols.

And there is no requirement by the Catholic Church for anyone to have a statue, a relic, a cross, a picture, a rosary, a scapular, etc.

So what's your point?

 

[kjv4me2you]

I think you have to quote someone; you get an alert only when you get a reply to your quote, such as this one

Thank you for the info about alert.

About the logo you sent. You do realize other denominations, religions and non religious are suffering throughout the world not only the RCC. When I confront a doctrine of the RCC, I am not bashing a RC person but rather debating a scripture doctrine.
Sometimes a person has what is called a martyr complex while forgetting their own denominations daily sins doings which I will not mention.

willyah

 

[kjv4me2you]

can you hear me now? lol

grin? You sound different.


willyah