Martial Arts, Proof of Magic

[Nepenthe]

I would have to do some more in depth research to get a fuller picture of Dajo. I've only read a few pages about him and I haven't come across many criticisms. Regardless, I think even the modern scientific community, if honest, would still be at least somewhat mystified by some of these fakirs. Again I go back how someone defines supernatural. Another man named "Jack Schwarz" had similar abilities as Dajo that he claimed to have gained when subjected to torture in a Nazi prison camp. When observed he was found to have the ability to alter his brain-wave rhythms at will (he was able to prevent his brain from producing beta waves, which are produced when we are in pain, after sticking needles through his arms without bleeding or flinching.) To some, this ability could be classified as supernatural but to me this is just untapped potential existing in us.

I'd never heard of Jack Schwarz. Fascinating guy. Thx for the info.
There's no question that psychological methods of pain control whether meditation or some other way are in the early stages of understanding. Some people who can control their reaction to pain may have had a neurological condition that made them less susceptible or even trained themselves to ignore the discomfort. I wonder if any sociological studies have been done on the acceptance of pain thresholds after the mainstreaming of tattoos and piercings.

Piercing parlour: YouTube - cheek skewer
Here's some amazing footage of Mirin Dajo; I think the doctor's explanation of Dajo's fistulas is a likely one: YouTube - Bloke getting stabbed with Sword!
YouTube - Mirin Dajo. Fake?

 

[Nepenthe]

Master Taylor threw me once with a one hand hap kido throw, without touching me.

Honestly, if this were actually demonstrable or repeatable, if this were shown to be true and that it wasn't the student reacting in the way their teacher expected them to, then it would revolutionize the scientific world.
It sounds like- if there were actual physical contact- a typical hapki-do jointlock move where you control your opponent's body by using leverage.

Another time I watched Master Taylor change the direction of the wind. He made it blow east, then west, then stop completely.

I saw Jonathon burn people with his finger tips. He gave me a small burn once too. They called it a chi burn. It wasn't finger nails. It was a flat rusty red mark that stayed for a week or two and did not hurt when it was... given. I got one across the top of my hand while sparring. Another student got one across his neck. Jonathon gave his little brother a hand shaped one around his arm one time when he grabbed him. He didn't hurt him. But his brother had the mark from his grip for well over a week.

See above. If this is true, fame and fortune await Master Taylor- and if he's not interested in that then a simple scientific test and demonstration of his powers would alter several sciences as we currently understand them.

Another time Jonathon and I were practicing penetration. We were taking turns holding three couch cushions, and we punched each other and followed through so that the one holding the cushions flew into the couch. He punched, I flew, and then everything from my chest to the back of my throat siezed up. I could not breathe, swallow, or move my neck. I thought I was going to suffocate and die. It lasted for about 10-15 seconds and it freaked me out sooooo dam bad. Master Taylor said that it was a chi burst that acted as if short curcuiting the bodies chi flow. I saw this happen to two other students, also on accident, with the same result. I saw two grown guys drop to the ground, grab their throats, and cry, just like I did. Cause it felt like it wasn't going to let up, and that you were going to die.

Rather than a chi burst, could it have been getting the wind knocked out of you?

This is just my personal testimonial of the validity of chi cultivation and manipulation. Energy is able to be harnessed and manipulated. As far as "magic," I have heard that magic can be manipulated in similar ways as the chi in martial arts. The energy used in magic is just the unseen astral version of the energy present in the body in the physical world. They are manipulating it spriritually/astrally, instead of physically through the physical body.

The chi anecdotes I've heard in the past sound suspiciously exaggerated; all too often students make hyperbolic claims about their teacher's abilities. I practiced taekwondo for years and there weren't too many chi claims, but the few demonstrations I saw weren't impressive. Suffice it to say I think martial arts fall squarely into the well established realm of physics.

Per the OP, here's the science of breaking bricks/cinder blocks: YouTube - How to Break Bricks

 

[ericoh2]

I'd never heard of Jack Schwarz. Fascinating guy. Thx for the info.
There's no question that psychological methods of pain control whether meditation or some other way are in the early stages of understanding. Some people who can control their reaction to pain may have had a neurological condition that made them less susceptible or even trained themselves to ignore the discomfort. I wonder if any sociological studies have been done on the acceptance of pain thresholds after the mainstreaming of tattoos and piercings.

Piercing parlour: YouTube - cheek skewer
Here's some amazing footage of Mirin Dajo; I think the doctor's explanation of Dajo's fistulas is a likely one: YouTube - Bloke getting stabbed with Sword!
YouTube - Mirin Dajo. Fake?

Thanks for the vid's, I had never seen them before . It would be interesting if another person like Dajo would appear today, maybe some modern technology could get a better idea of what was going on. I guess time will tell.

 

[Troublemane]

sure, most martial arts uses energy and momentum to gain advantage, as well as leverage, etc. However ch'i is something outside of physic, and more about mind controlling the body. the aikido trick of holding ones arm out and making it immovable is a good one, i have seen. you cant explain it through physics, you have to admit for the possiblity of something extra. its either (1) Ch'i is a real thing that allows a tiny old japanese man to resist a large american (or several) to move him, or (2) there is some kind of hypnosis going on, where the large person is convinced he cannot move the little guy. Either way, its more mental than physical.

Even though nobody has ever seen electricity, only the flash of heat caused by its release, our entire society is based on its existence and mastery of it. Yet nobody really understands why there is such a thing as induction or why magnetic fields spinning in a motor can produce an electric current, we just know through experimentation that it does. The point is, you may think you understand the world through 'common sense', but that aint necessarily true. There are still forces we use, without full understanding of them. We only know they work. :angel2:

 

[The Neo Nerd]

sure, most martial arts uses energy and momentum to gain advantage, as well as leverage, etc. However ch'i is something outside of physic, and more about mind controlling the body. the aikido trick of holding ones arm out and making it immovable is a good one, i have seen. you cant explain it through physics, you have to admit for the possiblity of something extra. its either (1) Ch'i is a real thing that allows a tiny old japanese man to resist a large american (or several) to move him, or (2) there is some kind of hypnosis going on, where the large person is convinced he cannot move the little guy. Either way, its more mental than physical.

The unbendable arm is the one i use to prove there is something else out there.

I've seen a fully grown man not being able to bend the arm of a stick thin 9 year old girl.

You can't say there isn't some kind of force manipulation going on there. As the lovely UV said magick doesn't necessarily have to be supernatural. Many people believe magick comes from within.

-Q

 

[Demonic Kitten]

Master Taylor threw me once with a one hand hap kido throw, without touching me. I threw the punch and he did a wide circling motion around my punch and flipped me onto the ground. My whole body was tingly and I was laughing. We learned how to break fall without hurting ourselves so I was fine.

This statement has been bugging me. I'm a Red Belt in Hapkido (TigerShark Hapkido to be exact). How is it possible to throw someone without touching them? I know several ways to flip someone or throw someone, but all of them involve touching the person you are throwing. And all of them have to do with joint manipulation (like Nepenthe pointed out). I know a few throws that can be done with one hand and they all start out the same (with the circle block as stated above), but like I've said. They all involve physical contact.

Another time I watched Master Taylor change the direction of the wind. He made it blow east, then west, then stop completely.

I saw Jonathon burn people with his finger tips. He gave me a small burn once too. They called it a chi burn. It wasn't finger nails. It was a flat rusty red mark that stayed for a week or two and did not hurt when it was... given. I got one across the top of my hand while sparring. Another student got one across his neck. Jonathon gave his little brother a hand shaped one around his arm one time when he grabbed him. He didn't hurt him. But his brother had the mark from his grip for well over a week.

Another time Jonathon and I were practicing penetration. We were taking turns holding three couch cushions, and we punched each other and followed through so that the one holding the cushions flew into the couch. He punched, I flew, and then everything from my chest to the back of my throat siezed up. I could not breathe, swallow, or move my neck. I thought I was going to suffocate and die. It lasted for about 10-15 seconds and it freaked me out sooooo dam bad. Master Taylor said that it was a chi burst that acted as if short curcuiting the bodies chi flow. I saw this happen to two other students, also on accident, with the same result. I saw two grown guys drop to the ground, grab their throats, and cry, just like I did. Cause it felt like it wasn't going to let up, and that you were going to die.

Jonathon was very skilled but had no control. Hence why we broke up. He had no control in more aspects of his life other than just his chi.

I am now going to a kung fu class that is led my the person who instructed Master Taylor. My psycho ex is not present.

This is just my personal testimonial of the validity of chi cultivation and manipulation. Energy is able to be harnessed and manipulated. As far as "magic," I have heard that magic can be manipulated in similar ways as the chi in martial arts. The energy used in magic is just the unseen astral version of the energy present in the body in the physical world. They are manipulating it spriritually/astrally, instead of physically through the physical body.

Now for the other bits here. I have a hard time believing that what he was using was chi(ki or qi). Of course I am a skeptic. I have yet to see proof that these things are possible by use of ki alone and not as some parlor trick. I have seen and been a part of various ki manipulation demonstrations. It's hard for me to believe that someone who know what ki is could not know how to control it. Ki manipulation of any kind is the manipulation of your energy or the energy around you. Using too much at once can be dangerous to you and others around you. It's not something you should do "accidently". That is my opinion though.

As to whether ki manipulation can be equated to magic...I don't see why not. Let's look at the definition of magic.

1.the art of producing illusions as entertainment by the use of sleight of hand, deceptive devices, etc.; legerdemain; conjuring: to pull a rabbit out of a hat by magic.
2.the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature.
3.the use of this art: Magic, it was believed, could drive illness from the body. 4.the effects produced: the magic of recovery.
5.power or influence exerted through this art: a wizard of great magic.
6.any extraordinary or mystical influence, charm, power, etc.: the magic in a great name; the magic of music; the magic of spring.
7.(initial capital letter ) the U.S. code name for information from decrypting machine-enciphered Japanese wireless messages before and during World War II.

Let's specifically look at number 2 : the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature. Could Ki not fit into that?

Of course as with all things it all comes down to what you believe in.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

It's interesting how people see and remember things how they want to also. This reminds me of a similar experience. Back in college, a female friend of mine got a job doing some type of massage at a Maharishi center. They did all types of instruction there, including meditation. I was asking her about it one day, and she was talking about how a few of the people could levitate when they meditated. I was obviously incredulous, and kept probing her for details to make sure there was no trick. She repeatedly assured me that she was amazed but they were really levitating. I asked if I could accompany her to see it. Eventually, I got her to take me down there.

The "levitation" consisted of people sitting indian style, hopping several inches off the ground. The interesting thing is that she still was convinced that they were levitating even with someone pointing out that they were simply using their legs to propel their body slightly off the ground.

She was convinced that she saw levitation, and that's what she continued to remember, and see. Who knows? In her mind, she might have been seeing something much more dramatic and unexplainable. I suspect this is the same mechanism involved with people who witness "feats" of qi, even when the physics involved are explained.

 

[Nepenthe]

The unbendable arm is the one i use to prove there is something else out there.

I've seen a fully grown man not being able to bend the arm of a stick thin 9 year old girl.

You can't say there isn't some kind of force manipulation going on there. As the lovely UV said magick doesn't necessarily have to be supernatural. Many people believe magick comes from within.

-Q

The arm bending stunt has been used as an example in several pseudo-scientific stunts from various martial arts to chiropracty and applied kinesiology. It's suggestibility, leverage, variations in the amount of pressure applied, and most importantly the observer-expectancy effect in action. A fully grown man who cannot bend a 9 year old's arm is either so convinced of the reality of chi and the immovable arm/leg/stance stunt that they're not actually applying enough force, or they're Stephen Hawking.

Yes, there are many immovable stances in martial arts- not really immovable but positions where the weight is distributed in the best way to counter an opposing force. But I'm 5"10', 170 pounds and if I were to face the world's best trained martial artist who happened to be 5", 80 pounds I'd be able to bend their arm and knock them down simply because that's how the physical universe works. No claim of qi is going to stop basic physics.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

This isn't a spoof thread of Micks train wrecks.

I'm sure we've all seen where some martial arts guru has used his hands or feet to breaks wooden boards or concrete blocks.

Most of us will have seen buddhist monks lean on spears and not have it penetrate the skin.

Some of us will know of the concept of Ki (or the other various interpretations of it) where a person is able to via concentrating do amazing feats of strength.

This i believe is clear proof of the existence of some kind of magical force. Perhaps it's just my interpretation of this force that i call it magic. Some people will just argue that it ki or chi.

And i would like to hear other peoples thoughts on this.

Thankyou,

-Q

I'm reminded of the quote by a karate master whom I can't think of at the moment who said something like, "If the old masters could jump twenty feet in the air then why do their houses have stairs?"

I've practiced T'ai Chi for over twenty years and met some of the worlds greatest master and can say that I have never seen onr who does anything remotely considered to be attributed to magical powers only a better understanding of already existes and how to use it.

John Painter, a publisher of a martial arts magazine, had for years offered a substantial reward to anyone who could prove one of the outstanding feats of incredulity. The reward was never collecteted.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Are you saying it's ki- or whatever is responsible for these demonstrations- is or is not a form of energy? Or are you saying it's simply a semantic issue and ki is just willpower or focusing attention on a specific task?

I don't personally think that ki is a form of energy in the literal sense, but "energy" might work as an analogy (i.e. in the "I'm tired from a long day at work; I don't have any energy" sense).

In my discipline, iaido, ki is roughly equivalent to "focus", and is thought to emanate from the abdomen. It just so happens that "directing your ki" at someone also aligns your posture properly to strike them with your sword.

I don't think there's anything supernatural to "ki" as I've learned about it. I think it's useful as a metaphor, but the same could be said of other aspects of my martial art: for example, even though we talk about a "living blade", I don't think my sword is literally alive.

This statement has been bugging me. I'm a Red Belt in Hapkido (TigerShark Hapkido to be exact). How is it possible to throw someone without touching them? I know several ways to flip someone or throw someone, but all of them involve touching the person you are throwing. And all of them have to do with joint manipulation (like Nepenthe pointed out). I know a few throws that can be done with one hand and they all start out the same (with the circle block as stated above), but like I've said. They all involve physical contact.

I suppose it's possible.

I know there are some "throwing" techniques that aren't so much examples of throwing as they are examples of "convincing" the person to jump themselves. Usually this is done through pain (which I assume is what you're talking about when you refer to joint manipulation), but I suppose it would be possible to have some technique that tricks a person into jumping that doesn't involve touching them.

 

[Demonic Kitten]

I suppose it's possible.

I know there are some "throwing" techniques that aren't so much examples of throwing as they are examples of "convincing" the person to jump themselves. Usually this is done through pain (which I assume is what you're talking about when you refer to joint manipulation), but I suppose it would be possible to have some technique that tricks a person into jumping that doesn't involve touching them.

Yes, that is what I am refering to. I'm not saying that there can't be such techniques, but I have a hard time believing that such techniques exist. Seeing is believing.

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

I guess there is a possibility that I could have reacted of my own will I guess. I didn't know what he was going to do... but hey, I amnot here to convince anyone.

I usually don't talk about that because most people will think you are wierd or crazy...

Martial arts is not a spectator sport. You have to give it a shot, have a teacher that is good with chi cultivation, and experience it yourself.

 

[ericoh2]

Has anyone here ever heard of a martial art called Fiz-les-loo? The only thing that I have really found on the internet about it is that it allegedly originated with a tribe called the Yezidis and it consist of using the energy of an opponent's attack and redirecting it back into their own body. Sounds a lot like chi manipulation of some sort to me. Since some of you all are more familiar with martial arts than I am I thought maybe someone else may have heard of it.

 

[gnostic]

This i believe is clear proof of the existence of some kind of magical force. Perhaps it's just my interpretation of this force that i call it magic. Some people will just argue that it ki or chi.

Not magic.

It is years of conditioning and self-disciplines. No magical forces are involved.

If you were to thrust the spear into throat, then skin will cut and he will be seriously injured and may either die or become a cripple.