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Featured Manifestations of the Spirit

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by rrobs, Sep 2, 2018.

  1. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    I guess you don't see, or don't want to see, any difference between a gift and a manifestation. Why do you keep calling a gift that which God calls a manifestation? Do you think it doesn't matter what God calls something? I'm sure you don't feel that way, but I must admit I'm a bit confused as to why you can't seem to make that distinction. A gift is not a manifestation and a manifestation is not a gift. They are two different, though related, things.
    God will not suddenly take control or your body and make you speak in tongues. It is up to you, by your own free will, to learn about the manifestations and how to operate them. There is no need to "acquire" the holy spirit. God gave it to you the day you were born again, whether you believe it or not, or whether you like it or not. The manifestations are part and parcel of that gift, so there is nothing one needs to "acquire." You already have it. Do you or do you not have holy spirit dwelling within? Is Christ in you or not?
    Do you think that God forced all those people whom you mentioned do His will in performing the miracles? God never forces! Yes, God does the work, but His hands are tied if there is nobody who believes what He says. God never possesses. Those men, by their own free will, knew what God was capable of doing and believed it. God did not part the Red Sea until Moses believed. Had Moses not believed, the miracle would not have occurred.

    Exod 14:15-16,

    15 And the LORD said unto Moses, Wherefore criest thou unto me? speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward:
    16 But lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go on dry [ground] through the midst of the sea.​

    God told Moses to lift up the rod, stretch out his hand, and divide it. Who did all of that? Moses! God plainly told Moses to divide the sea. He didn't say, "...stretch out thine hand over the sea, and I (God) will divide it." No! He told Moses to do it. Had Moses not believed the sea would not have been parted.

    There is no such thing as being an "instrument" of God. One can be an instrument of the devil, but the true God never uses us against our will and any way shape or form. He tells us what we can do and leaves it up to us to believe and do or not believe and not do. That is not the definition of an instrument. The devil possesses people and makes them his instrument, but not the true God.

    I can't argue that many have misused the things of God. That is clear. But God was not talking about parlor tricks in 1 Corinthians and neither am I. Just because some people, like Simon the Sorcerer, misused the scriptures to their own ends does not negate the scriptures themselves. Yes, it is absolutely possible to misuse God's word, and such use is unfortunately rampant in Christian circles, but that doesn't make the word of God invalid. God's word is God's word whether or not anybody believes it. It stands on it's own. I've said many times that you are over reacting to a few verses at the expense of many clear verses.

    I know I didn't address all the verses you so lovingly searched out and posted. It's not because I discount them. It's just a matter of time. I'll try to get to them later. I know you've spent a lot of time and effort. Thanks for that!

    Take care...
     
  2. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    Very good point. The power of holy spirit we have is a gift from God. Nobody earned it so nobody has a right to brag. The Corinthians were doing just that.

    1Cor 4:7,

    For who maketh thee to differ [from another]? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive [it], why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received [it]?
    In the verses that enumerate the manifestations it is clear that the spirit was something that was given to them. None of them had earned the privilege of manifesting the gift God freely gave them.

    1Cor 12:7,

    But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
    The end goal of manifesting holy spirit is profit. Profit means getting more out of an activity than the effort that was put into it. We believe God to manifest healing, but God does the actual healing, not us. The effort on our part in the healing is far outweighed by the effort God puts into it. That's profit and that's what the manifestations are good for (among other things).

    By the way, verse 7 says the manifestation of the spirit is given to every man (every man who has holy spirit, i.e. born again). That certainly includes you. God has given you the ability to operate the manifestations spelled out in the next 3 verses. It is clearly God's will we use the power He gave us.

    1Cor 14:23,

    If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?​

    The devil has tricked many people into not manifesting by making others misuse the gift. He gets some to brag about their ability to speak in tongues. That's what the Corinthians were doing. He gets others to operate them incorrectly, speaking out of order, rolling around on the ground, and other unseemly activities. I can't blame anyone who is turned off by all of that. But none of that is God's will as to how we should utilize our gift of holy spirit. God tells us in 1 Corinthians exactly how to operate the manifestations in the way He intended. Don't let the misguided actions of others deter you from manifesting that holy spirit within you. Don't let it lie dormant.

    You've mentioned the need to love others. Of course we are to love others, even as Christ loved us.

    Gal 5:22,

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
    The love of God, true love (agape), is not an intellectual thing. It is not something that we can read about (even in the scriptures) and get good at. God's love transcends our minds altogether. Love is a fruit of the spirit. You can't plant a fruit tree, ignore it, never water or fertilize it, and expect to yield fruit. Same thing with the holy spirit. God planted it in you but He will never force you to nurture it. He tells you how to nurture it, but it's up to you to do the actual work, which in the case is manifesting that spirit via one or more of the nine ways God set up for us. As you utilize the holy spirit it will result in more and more fruit. Let it lie dormant and no fruit, including love. People have their own ideas on what love is, but God is the expert. Man might say that love grows as we give food and shelter to the poor, visit the sick, and other popular methods, but God is quite adamant on how love grows. Galatians 5:22 is pretty straight forward. No point in saying, "Yes, but...."

    God told Paul to call the Galatians fools.

    Gal 3:1-2,

    1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
    2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
    Paul could have said to God, "Geez God, it doesn't seem very loving to call these believers fools. Many of them may get offended and leave the fellowship. Others might end up feeling bad for having misbehaved. Maybe instead of calling them fools, I'll just say they were misguided by no fault of their own. I think that would be more loving."

    I dare say that is exactly what many well meaning Christians would say. Like I said, God is the expert on love, not man or man's reasoning. Could it be that Paul had to courage to say exactly what God told him to say because he spoke in tongues more than anybody, that he didn't use his own logic as to how to love someone?
     
    #22 rrobs, Sep 6, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2018
  3. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    IF they are born again they HAVE the HS, but they may not be born again, and even if so - they are not the Spirit.

    James 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

    The Word of God, the seed that is planted in one's heart, maybe removed or otherwise made unfruitful. This is why the scriptures constantly exhort us to persevere in doing God's will, lest we fall short and do not receive that which is promised - eternal life with God.

    Matthew 13:18-23 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”
     
  4. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    Miracles are fine and dandy, but it's not what God is looking for from us.

    Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

    I'm not against miracles - but those who chase after them, looking for signs and wonders, are the same people susceptible to being fooled by false teachers and prophets. That's how the deceive people - by giving them what they want, telling them what they want to hear. If God blesses you with witnessing a miracle, or even having one performed through you, you are blessed indeed - but don't chase after teachers to learn how to perform miracles, like Simon the Sorcerer. That's not what God has called us to do.

    I've gone back and forth over the importance of politics over the years, usually leaning more on the abstaining side of things. However, God was never opposed to using Government for good. I think as long as we can bring about some good, without sacrificing our Christian integrity, then it is good to do so. It is all the more important when the public face of Christianity in America has become these brain-washed evangelicals who do nothing but sell out to the Conservative party and to capitalism.

    An individual isn't supposed to interpret their own message given in tongues - there needs to be an interpreter.

    1 Cor 14:27-28 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.​

    Speaking in tongues and interpreting tongues are two distinct gifts:


    1 Corinthians 12:10
    to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.​
     
  5. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    Tongues is both a gift and a manifestation; there is no reason to favor "manifestation" over "gift."

    God will not suddenly take control or your body and make you speak in tongues. It is up to you, by your own free will, to learn about the manifestations and how to operate them. There is no need to "acquire" the holy spirit. God gave it to you the day you were born again, whether you believe it or not, or whether you like it or not. The manifestations are part and parcel of that gift, so there is nothing one needs to "acquire." You already have it. Do you or do you not have holy spirit dwelling within? Is Christ in you or not?

    The scriptures are clear that - yes - it was God who did these things.


    Psalm 78:11-16 They forgot what he had done, the wonders he had shown them. 12 He did miracles in the sight of their ancestors in the land of Egypt, in the region of Zoan. 13 He divided the sea and led them through; he made the water stand up like a wall. 14 He guided them with the cloud by day and with light from the fire all night. 15 He split the rocks in the wilderness and gave them water as abundant as the seas; 16 he brought streams out of a rocky crag and made water flow down like rivers.

    Psalm 136:1-26 Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good. His love endures forever. 2 Give thanks to the God of gods. His love endures forever. 3 Give thanks to the Lord of lords: His love endures forever. 4 to him who alone does great wonders, His love endures forever. 5 who by his understanding made the heavens, His love endures forever. 6 who spread out the earth upon the waters,
    His love endures forever. 7 who made the great lights— His love endures forever. 8 the sun to govern the day, His love endures forever. 9 the moon and stars to govern the night; His love endures forever. 10 to him who struck down the firstborn of Egypt His love endures forever. 11 and brought Israel out from among them His love endures forever. 12 with a mighty hand and outstretched arm; His love endures forever. 13 to him who divided the Red Sea asunder His love endures forever. 14 and brought Israel through the midst of it, His love endures forever. 15 but swept Pharaoh and his army into the Red Sea; His love endures forever. 16 to him who led his people through the wilderness; His love endures forever. 17 to him who struck down great kings, His love endures forever. 18 and killed mighty kings— His love endures forever. 19 Sihon king of the Amorites His love endures forever. 20 and Og king of Bashan— His love endures forever. 21 and gave their land as an inheritance, His love endures forever. 22 an inheritance to his servant Israel. His love endures forever. 23 He remembered us in our low estate His love endures forever. 24 and freed us from our enemies. His love endures forever. 25 He gives food to every creature. His love endures forever. 26 Give thanks to the God of heaven. His love endures forever.

    Nehemia 9:9-12 “You saw the suffering of our ancestors in Egypt; you heard their cry at the Red Sea. 10 You sent signs and wonders against Pharaoh, against all his officials and all the people of his land, for you knew how arrogantly the Egyptians treated them. You made a name for yourself, which remains to this day. 11 You divided the sea before them, so that they passed through it on dry ground, but you hurled their pursuers into the depths, like a stone into mighty waters. 12 By day you led them with a pillar of cloud, and by night with a pillar of fire to give them light on the way they were to take.

    I'm not over-reacting at all - rather, I understand that miracles shouldn't be our focus as Christians. Searching them out isn't our job, and makes one susceptible to false prophets and teachers.

    1 Cor 1:22-24 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
     
  6. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    1Pet 1:23,

    Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
    So there is something a Christian can do to corrupt what God calls incorruptible? If so then your earthly father gave you a better seed than God. Even Hitler kept his father's seed until the end. How can you have your father's seed in you and somehow, because of something you did, It goes away and you are no longer your father's son?

    God choose you before the world even began.

    Eph 1:4,

    According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    You are saying that God may have made a mistake when He chose you to be His son? That He missed something you would do in the future that would somehow not make you His son anymore?

    Your flesh is as rotten as rotten gets.

    Rom 7:18,

    For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
    John 6:63,

    It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
    That is what Jesus said. So why look to the flesh to somehow rein it in and make it worthy of God's love? It just can't be done. That is precisely why we needed a Saviour. God knows there is nothing good in your flesh, that nothing good can come from it. The new birth is not God giving you a improved flesh nature. Instead He gave you a whole you. That would be holy spirit, the new creation in you which, being God's handiwork, is perfect. As Peter said, it is incorruptible. That means it can't corrupt as you seem to be suggesting.

    Gal 6:15,

    For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
    That new creature is Christ in you which is of course perfect. An unborn again person has only flesh nature and that flesh does nothing but sin. There is no good thing in it, and there never will be anything good in it. A person who is born again gets a new nature, spirit. So the born again Christian has both flesh nature and spirit nature. The one has nothing good and the other has everything good. That is why Romans says we have the righteousness of God (Rom 3:22). God does not make mistakes.

    Have you read Romans chapter 7? If not, I urge you to read it now. Paul, inspired by God, talks about his flesh. He admits he can't control it. He gives the solution which is basically that he will ignore his flesh and keep his mind on the spiritual nature God gave him. That is how you grow in faith. Minding your flesh is a waste of time.

    You can only think one thought at a time. You could think, "Boy, I need to stop swearing and getting angry. I've been trying to do that for 20 years but I just can't seem to do it. Oh well, I'll just keep on trying." Or you could say to your self, "Isn't God wonderful. He made me His son and He has made me every bit as righteous as He is Himself. I sure don't deserve it, but praise God for His Grace. And to think He has made me more that a conqueror in any situation (Rom 8:37). What a God!" Now really, which do you think is going to make your walk in the world more Godly? Look at your flesh all day long and you'll end up with nothing, no profit. Keep your mind and thoughts on God and what He has done for you will reap far greater rewards.

    Letting the spirit lay dormant, not operating the nine manifestations, and working instead on the flesh is not God's will. You will just end up with doubt, fear, and worry. How many times can you swear before you supposedly loose the incorruptible seed God gave you? Once? Fifty times? Five thousand times? But what about getting drunk? Now that's considered pretty ungodly. Do you loose that seed after only one drunken binge? Those questions can't be answered. That is why they lead to doubt which leads to worry and fear. Better to take the advice Paul gave to the Colossians.

    Col 3:2,

    Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
    Your flesh is about as earthy as the earth gets. Paul told you to not give it any place in your thoughts.

    I must confess that as I write this my spiritual anger is growing. I take it as a huge insult when someone tells me that Jesus did not finish the job he came to do. He either redeemed us or he didn't. How arrogant to think that you can somehow annul his work, that you have to somehow finish it for him. My Saviour is a complete Saviour. He finished the work he started in my life and that's that! My actions can never override the actions he took in sacrificing himself to save me because I was dead in trespasses and sin.

    I better stop here and cool down....I love you as a brother in Christ, but I'm afraid you've been hoodwinked by the damnable lies of too many churches. You appear to value the word of your Pastor and tradition over the word of God. You refuse to make a distinction between a manifestation and a gift. You won't even consider there is a distinction. I know you will refute that which I've said about incorruptible seed, and in so doing you are calling God a liar. Doing that renders God's word of no effect in your life. So go ahead, forget about the Christ in you. Keep on working on your flesh and hope you are worthy. It doesn't matter that God says you are as righteous (worth) as Him. He doesn't know what He's talking about. He needs to listen to you because you know more than Him about life and godliness.

    Unless you have any sincere questions for me, I think I want to be done with this discussion. I have and I will continue to pray that you somehow gain the respect for God's word it so deserves.
     
    #26 rrobs, Sep 7, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2018
  7. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    I'm afraid you are attempting to fight against Jesus' own words on the matter - which isn't going to work. There's a reason the scriptures constantly exhort us to persevere so that we do not fall short of what is promised - eternal life. God's word is indeed incorruptible, but that doesn't mean we are incorruptible. We retain our freewill and must actively seek to do what is right and good, avoiding sin. If we do not actively persevere, but fall short, then we will not receive that which is promised.

    Hebrews 10:36
    You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

    James 1:12 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

    1 John 2:25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

    Luke 9:23-24 Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it.

    etc.


    God desires all to be saved, and Christ died for all. Yet not all are saved despite this. The deciding factor - as made clear through the consistent testimony of the scriptures - is one's deeds. See the parable of the Sheeps and the Goats, for instance, in Matthew 25.

    God gave us freewill and the capability of choosing to do what is right. We are fully capable - especially those who have his law written on their hearts and minds (which is a fundamental component of the New Covenant).

    Deut 30:11-20
    Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

    15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

    17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

    19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.​


    God's word is rightly called a seed - for it has all the potential of bearing fruit, of producing this new creature. However, if you properly study all scripture says on the matter, it is clear that this budding new life can be uprooted or otherwise made unfruitful - as Jesus himself teaches. The fruit is what comes when the seed is properly nourished by us - the soil. This is why we must persevere. It is only when we have persevered to the end that we receive the promise of eternal life, when we shall truly be transformed and given incorruptible bodies.

    1 Cor 16:51-54 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”​


    I very much enjoy the passage to which you are referring, but your understanding is not quite right. Paul says both good and evil are with him constantly, he is expressing the continually struggle between the desire to follow God's Law vs sinning. That's cause it doesn't go away, and why one must persevere constantly to choose to do what is right over and against sin.

    It isn't a question of how many times have you sinned, it is a question of perseverance. When you stumble, do you choose to rise to the challenge once more?

    Your view is over-simplified. Jesus died for all - but not all will be saved. Why? Because people will be judged according to their deeds.

    You make far too many assumptions about me - false assumptions - and are quite frankly simply insulting here.
     
    #27 iam1me, Sep 8, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2018
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