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Manifestations of the Spirit

rrobs

Well-Known Member
I can understand why there is confusion when it comes to the operation of the manifestations (usually wrongly called gifts) of the spirit in light of the text in 1 Corinthians chapter 12.

1Cor 12:7-10,


7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:​

First of all, it should be noted that verse 7 is talking about manifestations, not gifts. The gift is holy spirit which, being spirit, can't be seen, heard, smelled, tasted, or touched. In other words, it can not be registered by any of the 5 senses people normally use to learn about the world around them. That is why God made the 9 different ways the invisible spirit can be manifested into the senses world.

Like I said, I can almost understand why some say that not all Christians can operate any or all of the listed manifestations when only the text of 1 Corinthians 12:8-10 is considered. I suppose it could be considered a bit nebulous to many Christians and therefore hard to fully understand. However, there is a verse in John that seems to settle the question once and for all.

John 14:12,


Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
There are numerous examples of Jesus operating 7 of the nine manifestations (he didn't operate tongues or interpretation of tongues simply because they were not available until the day of Pentecost). Therefore it seems crystal clear that every believer can manifest at least the 7 Jesus operated. John 14:12 leaves little doubt on that point. As far as tongues and interpretation are concerned, one only need to look at Paul's (converted after Pentecost, when tongues and interpretation were available) attitude concerning tongues/interpretation.

1Cor 14:5,


I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater [is] he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.​

Paul, via revelation from God, wants us to speak in tongues in our private prayer life. However, when others are present it is required that the message in tongues be interpreted or that message given by prophecy. Tongues with interpretation is equal to prophecy. Tongues in one's private prayer life edifies that individual only (1 Cor 14:4), but he that interprets tongues or utters a word of prophecy edifies the whole body of believers in a public meeting. Prophesy is a sign of a more mature group of believers (1 Cor 14:22).

The bottom line is that God wants all Christians to speak in tongues, "I would that ye all spake with tongues..."

1Cor 14:18,


I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:​

If it's good enough for Paul, how about the rest of us? I'd say, and I believe this verse says God agrees, we should speak in tongues in our private prayer life often.

So the scriptures unequivocally say we will do the works Jesus did. That includes 7 of the 9 manifestations in 1 Cor 12:8-10. Besides those 7, God wants us to operate the other 2 which came after the Day if Pentecost.

One can study the scriptures to build up their mind, but to edify the spirit it is necessary to operate the gift of holy spirit which God freely gave each and every born again believer. That is how we can do the works Jesus did when he walked this earth.
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I can understand why there is confusion when it comes to the operation of the manifestations (usually wrongly called gifts) of the spirit in light of the text in 1 Corinthians chapter 12.

1Cor 12:7-10,

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:​

First of all, it should be noted that verse 7 is talking about manifestations, not gifts. The gift is holy spirit which, being spirit, can't be seen, heard, smelled, tasted, or touched. In other words, it can not be registered by any of the 5 senses people normally use to learn about the world around them. That is why God made the 9 different ways the invisible spirit can be manifested into the senses world.

Like I said, I can almost understand why some say that not all Christians can operate any or all of the listed manifestations when only the text of 1 Corinthians 12:8-10 is considered. I suppose it could be considered a bit nebulous and therefore hard to fully understand. However, there is a verse in John that seems to settle the question once and for all.

John 14:12,

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
There are numerous examples of Jesus operating 7 of the nine manifestations (he didn't operate tongues or interpretation of tongues simply because they were not available until the day of Pentecost). Therefore it seems crystal clear that every believer can manifest at least the 7 Jesus operated. John 14:12 leaves little doubt on that point. As far as tongues and interpretation are concerned, one only need to look at Paul's (converted after Pentecost, when tongues and interpretation were available) attitude concerning tongues/interpretation.

1Cor 14:5,

I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater [is] he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
Paul, via revelation from God, wants us to speak in tongues in our private prayer life. However, when others are present it is required that the message in tongues be interpreted or that message given by prophecy. Tongues with interpretation is equal to prophecy. Tongues in one's private prayer life edifies that individual only (1 Cor 14:4), but he that interprets tongues or prophesies edifies the whole body of believers in a public meeting. Prophesy is a sign of a more mature group of believers (1 Cor 14:22).

The bottom line is that God wants all Christians to speak in tongues, "I would that ye all spake with tongues..."

1Cor 14:18,

I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
If it's good enough for Paul, how about the rest of us? I'd say, and I believe this verse says God agrees, we should speak in tongues in our private prayer life often.

So the scriptures unequivocally say we will do the works Jesus did. That includes 7 of the 9 manifestations in 1 Cor 12:8-10. Besides those 7, God wants us to operate the other 2 which came after the Day if Pentecost.

One can study the scriptures to build up their mind, but to edify the spirit it is necessary to operate the gift of holy spirit God which gave each and every born again believer. That is how we can do the works Jesus did when he walked this earth.

I would see speaking in tongues as the gift to recognise and understand the Spirit behind the Written Word.

Thus I may say that Christ has returned as the Father, in "the Glory of God". To some that is gibberish, to others it is clear and fulfilled biblical scripture.

Regards Tony
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I can understand why there is confusion when it comes to the operation of the manifestations (usually wrongly called gifts) of the spirit in light of the text in 1 Corinthians chapter 12.

1Cor 12:7-10,

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:​

First of all, it should be noted that verse 7 is talking about manifestations, not gifts. The gift is holy spirit which, being spirit, can't be seen, heard, smelled, tasted, or touched. In other words, it can not be registered by any of the 5 senses people normally use to learn about the world around them. That is why God made the 9 different ways the invisible spirit can be manifested into the senses world.

Like I said, I can almost understand why some say that not all Christians can operate any or all of the listed manifestations when only the text of 1 Corinthians 12:8-10 is considered. I suppose it could be considered a bit nebulous and therefore hard to fully understand. However, there is a verse in John that seems to settle the question once and for all.

John 14:12,

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
There are numerous examples of Jesus operating 7 of the nine manifestations (he didn't operate tongues or interpretation of tongues simply because they were not available until the day of Pentecost). Therefore it seems crystal clear that every believer can manifest at least the 7 Jesus operated. John 14:12 leaves little doubt on that point. As far as tongues and interpretation are concerned, one only need to look at Paul's (converted after Pentecost, when tongues and interpretation were available) attitude concerning tongues/interpretation.

1Cor 14:5,

I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater [is] he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
Paul, via revelation from God, wants us to speak in tongues in our private prayer life. However, when others are present it is required that the message in tongues be interpreted or that message given by prophecy. Tongues with interpretation is equal to prophecy. Tongues in one's private prayer life edifies that individual only (1 Cor 14:4), but he that interprets tongues or prophesies edifies the whole body of believers in a public meeting. Prophesy is a sign of a more mature group of believers (1 Cor 14:22).

The bottom line is that God wants all Christians to speak in tongues, "I would that ye all spake with tongues..."

1Cor 14:18,

I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
If it's good enough for Paul, how about the rest of us? I'd say, and I believe this verse says God agrees, we should speak in tongues in our private prayer life often.

So the scriptures unequivocally say we will do the works Jesus did. That includes 7 of the 9 manifestations in 1 Cor 12:8-10. Besides those 7, God wants us to operate the other 2 which came after the Day if Pentecost.

One can study the scriptures to build up their mind, but to edify the spirit it is necessary to operate the gift of holy spirit God which gave each and every born again believer. That is how we can do the works Jesus did when he walked this earth.
This is a great de-glossing of this passage.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I can understand why there is confusion when it comes to the operation of the manifestations (usually wrongly called gifts) of the spirit in light of the text in 1 Corinthians chapter 12.

I believe that Paul clarified Ch 12 with what he said in Ch 13.

After telling us what "LOVE" is, and what it isn't, Paul said..."8 Love never fails. But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, 10 but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child. 12 For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known. 13 Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love." (1 Corinthians 13:8-13)

I see Paul telling us that when it was in its infancy, Christianity needed the manifestations of the spirit to back up or reinforce what Jesus and the apostles were teaching....but Paul also spoke about the "milk" of the word giving way to "solid food", (Hebrews 5:12-14) meaning that Christians needed to 'grow up' and leave the 'traits of a child' behind them. Moving on to maturity, the three things that would identify true mature Christianity were "faith, hope and love"... as Jesus confirmed, reported by the apostle John...

"Little children, I am with you a little longer. You will look for me; and just as I said to the Jews, ‘Where I go you cannot come,’ I now say it also to you. 34 I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves." (John 13:33-35)

Self-sacrificing Love is something the devil cannot mimic.

In this day and age, it is not 'miracles' that identify Christ's disciples, remembering that the devil can do 'tricks' too....Paul warned that the coming...."lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

Christ's disciples today are identified by their love and unity.....not by their division. (1 Corinthians 1:10) Some put emphasis on the gifts and others do not. Some support the Bible, and others not so much....But they have to love the truth, not just church doctrine and tricks that the devil can mimic.
Speaking in tongues is so easily mimicked by those who want to appear to be filled with the spirit, when they are only acting. I have had many discussions with those kinds of people. They did not want to appear to be different to all the ones gabbling in church, so they pretended. Others clearly believe that they are speaking in tongues....so what are these tongues? Are they different languages?

It is reported in Acts 8:18...."Now when Simon saw that the spirit was given through the laying on of the hands of the apostles, he offered them money" so apparently the gifts were imparted by the laying on of the hands of the Apostles. So when the Apostles died, the gifts died with them. No one could then pass them on, so this ties in with what Paul said about the gifts 'ceasing'.

This is what JW's believe and why you will never see the "gifts" manifest among us. You will just see the "love".
 

iam1me

Active Member
1 Cor 12:27-31 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.​

Paul asks rhetorically here: do all speak in tongues? The intended, obvious answer is no. It is one of the lesser gifts that one may receive as part of the body - but by no means a guarantee.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
I believe that Paul clarified Ch 12 with what he said in Ch 13.

After telling us what "LOVE" is, and what it isn't, Paul said..."8 Love never fails. But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, 10 but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child. 12 For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known. 13 Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love." (1 Corinthians 13:8-13)

I see Paul telling us that when it was in its infancy, Christianity needed the manifestations of the spirit to back up or reinforce what Jesus and the apostles were teaching....but Paul also spoke about the "milk" of the word giving way to "solid food", (Hebrews 5:12-14) meaning that Christians needed to 'grow up' and leave the 'traits of a child' behind them. Moving on to maturity, the three things that would identify true mature Christianity were "faith, hope and love"... as Jesus confirmed, reported by the apostle John...

"Little children, I am with you a little longer. You will look for me; and just as I said to the Jews, ‘Where I go you cannot come,’ I now say it also to you. 34 I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves." (John 13:33-35)

Self-sacrificing Love is something the devil cannot mimic.

In this day and age, it is not 'miracles' that identify Christ's disciples, remembering that the devil can do 'tricks' too....Paul warned that the coming...."lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

Christ's disciples today are identified by their love and unity.....not by their division. (1 Corinthians 1:10) Some put emphasis on the gifts and others do not. Some support the Bible, and others not so much....But they have to love the truth, not just church doctrine and tricks that the devil can mimic.
Speaking in tongues is so easily mimicked by those who want to appear to be filled with the spirit, when they are only acting. I have had many discussions with those kinds of people. They did not want to appear to be different to all the ones gabbling in church, so they pretended. Others clearly believe that they are speaking in tongues....so what are these tongues? Are they different languages?

It is reported in Acts 8:18...."Now when Simon saw that the spirit was given through the laying on of the hands of the apostles, he offered them money" so apparently the gifts were imparted by the laying on of the hands of the Apostles. So when the Apostles died, the gifts died with them. No one could then pass them on, so this ties in with what Paul said about the gifts 'ceasing'.

This is what JW's believe and why you will never see the "gifts" manifest among us. You will just see the "love".
So the thing Jesus said about us doing greater works than him is no longer valid?

It has to be a major insult to Jesus to say we don't need to do the things he did, which I showed are nothing other than the manifestations of the spirit in 1 Corinthians 12. We need that more than ever as the day dawns and his return gets ever closer. The devil is working overtime, so should we. There are 9 ways that the Christ in you, holy spirit, can be used to defeat him at every turn. Without the manifestations we are just guessing, using our own stupid logic. God gave us holy spirit for a reason. Partly because He wants us to be his children, but also because they are the very tools necessary to walk with God in the devil's world.

Why do you call tongues a gift when the scriptures clearly call it a manifestation? That shows a lack of respect for God's word. He chose each word so as to make the book perfect. Change one word and we no longer have the truth.

All your ideas about mimicking tongues, while having a form of human reason, has nothing to do with the scriptures. With the proper instruction from the scriptures it is available to do it the way God intended.

It is true that if I have no love my speaking in tongues is as a tinkling symbol. But that doesn't mean to avoid speaking in tongues. It says to speak in tongues (and other 8 manifestations) with love, and that is what we should do. A big part, if not all, of love is obeying the scriptures.

The "perfect" will come with Christ's second appearance. Then we won't need the manifestations. "Perfect" is from the Greek word "telos." Jesus used that word in 1 Corinthians 15:24,

Then [cometh] the end (telos), when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
I don't see that as speaking to anything but the new heavens and new earth. At that point the manifestations will not be necessary. Until then we need them to win others to Christ. How is that not love?

1Cor 13:8,

Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.
If what you say is true, then knowledge is also gone, so how are you going to know anything?

1Cor 14:2,

For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
There is no other verse in the scriptures that tell us how to speak mysteries with God. How do you do it? Or is it not available anymore to speak mysteries with God?

1Cor 14:4,

He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
How do you edify yourself and the church? Or do we not need to be edified anymore?

Acts 2:11,

Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
Speaking in tongues is speaking the wonderful works of God.

Acts 10:46,

For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
What's wrong with magnifying God? That's what one does when speaking in tongues.

Rom 8:26-27,

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.
I don't know what you or any other brother in Christ needs in their life, but God does. When I hold you in my mind and speak in tongues, I am making perfect intercession for you. I don't know any other way to do that.

There are many other benefits to speaking in tongues. We are in the devil's world now. We are behind enemy lines. How can you say that we don't need revelation, miracles, healing, discerning of spirits, and the others in order to stay right with God?

We are filled with all the fullness of God (Eph 3:19). One can say they believe that, but until it is demonstrated via the manifestations it is just words without substance, certainly not very loving.

Who laid hands on the Apostles on the day of Pentecost? Nobody. Who laid hands on the folks in Acts 10:14? Nobody, and yet it says they spoke in tongues. Laying on of hands is not a requirement, so that argument holds no water. There was some other reason Paul had to lay hands on those people. Perhaps he needed a word of knowledge and word of wisdom as to why they were born again but not speaking in tongues. Until that point speaking in tongues was pretty standard for anybody who was a Christian.

You mentioned Hebrews 5:12-14. Clearly that is speaking of a young, just born again, Christian vs. an older, more mature Christian. It has nothing to do with "that which is perfect" coming. 1 Corinthians 3:2 says the same thing.


All in all, the scriptures are much clearer than any of man's ideas. I'll go with them any day of the week!

I know an argument goes that tongues draws attention to the one speaking and thus draws attention away from God. Hogwash! The scriptures say nothing of the sort. It takes great humility to believe God when He says we can do supernatural things by the holy spirit He gave us. I am nothing apart from the Christ in me (Col 1:27). If he says I'll do greater things than him, then that is what I'll do. It doesn't matter if I don't "feel" full of power. Gad says I am and therefore I am. It's got nothing to do with me or my own ability. It has everything to do with God and the ability He so freely gave to me. What a travesty to tell Him I don't need His help! That is the epitome of ego.

On a personal note, it is spiritually frustrating to see different sects who know that Jesus is not God but don't believe in the manifestations. On the other hand, there are plenty of sects that operate at least one or two of the manifestations but think that Jesus is God. There are very few who know both who Jesus is as well as how to operate the nine manifestations. I wish there were more!
 
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rrobs

Well-Known Member
1 Cor 12:27-31 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.​

Paul asks rhetorically here: do all speak in tongues? The intended, obvious answer is no. It is one of the lesser gifts that one may receive as part of the body - but by no means a guarantee.
You call a gift that which God calls a manifestation. 1 Cor 12:31 can't be speaking about tongues. It is speaking of gifts but the scriptures calls tongues a manifestation of that gift. Big difference.

Do all speak in tongues? Obviously not, but why not? Is it because it is not available or is it because many don't believe they can speak with tongues? I've seen countless people who didn't think they had the "gift" speak in tongues once properly instructed. It is a lack of knowledge that prevents Christian from operating the holy spirit that God gave them. It is absolutely available for every born again believer to operate the nine manifestations.

OK. Let's say everything you said is true. That still doesn't address the main premise of my original post which is that we will do the works (and more) that Christ did. That is either true of false. If true, then it will indeed line up with the manifestations listed in 1 Cor 12. If not, then Jesus lied and we may as well look into Buddhism or Hinduism. Or just forget about God altogether.
 
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iam1me

Active Member
You call a gift that which God calls a manifestation. 1 Cor 12:31 can't be speaking about tongues. It is speaking of gifts but the scriptures calls tongues a manifestation of that gift. Big difference.

Do all speak in tongues? Obviously not, but why not? Is it because it is not available or is it because many don't believe they can speak with tongues? I've seen countless people who didn't think they had the "gift" speak in tongues once properly instructed. It is a lack of knowledge that prevents Christian from operating the holy spirit that God gave them. It is absolutely available for every born again believer to operate the nine manifestations.

OK. Let's say everything you said is true. That still doesn't address the main premise of my original post which is that we will do the works (and more) that Christ did. That is either true of false. If true, then it will indeed line up with the manifestations listed in 1 Cor 12. If not, then Jesus lied and we may as well look into Buddhism or Hinduism. Or just forget about God altogether.

Please read the context. Paul is making the point that the church is a body with many members - and those members don't all have the same function or honor, yet all are put in place to support the same body. Everyone doesn't need to be an apostle, or a prophet, or have gifts of healing, or speak in tongues, etc. It is obvious that Paul doesn't believe everyone receives the gift (or manifestation if you prefer) of tongues.

Additionally, The works that we are to do are not a matter of miracles. In the first place, when miracles are performed it is not we who do them - but God Almighty. In the second place, the works that God wants from us are to help those in need and to carry out his will - giving up our life to God.

Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
So the thing Jesus said about us doing greater works than him is no longer valid?

It was valid for those to whom he spoke. The apostles and those with the gifts did do greater works than Jesus so that they could continue what he started...but it was not to go on forever, as Paul stated. They were to cease because it was foretold that an apostasy would descend upon Christianity and turn it into a work of the devil. (The weeds of Jesus parable) When apostasy reigned, the gifts bestowed by the apostles died with them. The only ones doing "tricks" after that were phonies empowered by the devil. True Christians would be recognized by their genuine faith, blazing hope and the love and concern they have for one another....not by their 'miracles'.

Keeping in mind that all the first Christians were of the anointed, (those with the "heavenly calling". Hebrews 3:1) we see two distinct groups in Christianity mentioned in the Revelation. One group is heaven bound; those "born again" by God transforming their bodies into spirit beings in the likeness of Christ's resurrection....it is born mortal human flesh, but when it dies it is raised as a spirit in order to dwell where God does. These are a finite number...."spiritual Israel". (Revelation 7:1-4)

The other group are unnumbered...an infinite "great multitude" who are said to survive the "great tribulation" here on earth. (Revelation 7:9-10; 13-14) These survivors will make up the nucleus of the the "new earth", whereas the 144,000 will make up the "new heavens" ruling with Christ in his Kingdom. (2 Peter 3:13)

It has to be a major insult to Jesus to say we don't need to do the things he did, which I showed are nothing other than the manifestations of the spirit in 1 Corinthians 12. We need that more than ever as the day dawns and his return gets ever closer. The devil is working overtime, so should we. There are 9 ways that the Christ in you, holy spirit, can be used to defeat him at every turn. Without the manifestations we are just guessing, using our own stupid logic. God gave us holy spirit for a reason. Partly because He wants us to be his children, but also because they are the very tools necessary to walk with God in the devil's world.

Don't you see that "faith, hope and love" conquer everything! The operation of God's spirit in this "time of the end" empowers Christians with something greater than the gifts ever could. We are no longer spiritual babies; by the power of God's spirit we are carrying out the greatest preaching campaign the world has ever seen. We don't need to do tricks to draw people to the truth....it is the Christian message that does that. God's spirit does the rest.

The "perfect" will come with Christ's second appearance. Then we won't need the manifestations.

We believe that Christ has already come. He gave us a "sign" so that we would know when his kingship had been established in the heavens. Why would we need a complicated sign to alert us to an event that was clearly visible? (Matthew 24:3-14) Jesus said it was the sign of his "presence" (parousia) NOT of his manifestation as judge of all the earth. "Every eye" will see that.

Daniel 7:13-14 is the account of the coronation of our King. It was not a visible event because it took place in heaven, unseen by human eyes. The events on earth that tied in with that coronation, was firstly the ousting of satan and his minions from heaven. (Revelation 12:7-12) Jesus' first act as King was to cleans the heavens of all the rebels.

Only with him being given authority as King it says...."Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down". Those in heaven rejoiced....but it meant "Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”

The devastating consequences for humankind was the anger of satan and his hordes, knowing that this is their last ditch effort to mislead mankind down the path to death. They already know what awaits them, but they will take as many down with them as they can mislead. He is a deceiver.....a very clever one.

There are many other benefits to speaking in tongues. We are in the devil's world now. We are behind enemy lines. How can you say that we don't need revelation, miracles, healing, discerning of spirits, and the others in order to stay right with God?

I speak to God in my own language...why does he need to hear another? He speaks all languages....he invented them, remember?
As for the other things you mention, continued understanding comes as a result of being fed by the "faithful and wise slave" that Jesus appointed to "feed" his household. (Matthew 24:45) By framing the identity of this "slave" in a question, it seems as if he may be a little hard to identify in a world of "weeds" and "goats". We will find him if we are sincere...."keep seeking...keep knocking...keep asking".

Who laid hands on the Apostles on the day of Pentecost? Nobody. Who laid hands on the folks in Acts 10:14? Nobody, and yet it says they spoke in tongues. Laying on of hands is not a requirement, so that argument holds no water. There was some other reason Paul had to lay hands on those people. Perhaps he needed a word of knowledge and word of wisdom as to why they were born again but not speaking in tongues. Until that point speaking in tongues was pretty standard for anybody who was a Christian.

It was God who bestowed his holy spirit on those first century disciples. The apostles could lay their hands on others to bestow the operation of the holy spirit. In Acts 10, read the whole chapter and see that holy spirit was given to these first Gentile converts in the presence of Peter.

So what were the tongues spoken by those who received holy spirit at Pentecost? They received the miraculous ability to teach foreigners in their own languages. This gift of “tongues” allowed them to be understood by people from at least 15 different lands, who had come to Jerusalem for the festival. People had come from three continents—from as far as Mesopotamia on the east, to Rome on the west and to Libya and Egypt on the south. Each was able to hear, in his own language, “about the magnificent things of God.” Hearing and accepting these things, many later took the thrilling message back to their homes, to spread it quickly over a very wide area (Acts 2:5-11)

It seems that the congregation in Corinth was actually attaching too much importance to the matter of tongues. Paul wrote to them not to do so. He asked: “Brothers, if I should come speaking to you in tongues, what good would I do you . . . ?” unless he explained what he said in tongues in language they could understand. He said that, like musical instruments, the voice should not give “indistinct” sounds. We should not speak “into the air.” Speech should be “easily understood,” he said, so that those present would know “what is being spoken" (1 Corinthians 14:6-9)

This is how we view things scripturally.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Please read the context. Paul is making the point that the church is a body with many members - and those members don't all have the same function or honor, yet all are put in place to support the same body. Everyone doesn't need to be an apostle, or a prophet, or have gifts of healing, or speak in tongues, etc. It is obvious that Paul doesn't believe everyone receives the gift (or manifestation if you prefer) of tongues.

Additionally, The works that we are to do are not a matter of miracles. In the first place, when miracles are performed it is not we who do them - but God Almighty. In the second place, the works that God wants from us are to help those in need and to carry out his will - giving up our life to God.

Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
I see what you are saying, but it seems to fly in the face of Jesus telling us we would do what he did and more. I don't see how that can be discounted.

Believing the scriptures is the first step towards giving your life to God. Without that it's a waste of time. You don't seem to want to believe that tongues is a manifestation. You think that is simply my preference, but it is more than that. It is the truth.

It is God that prefers calling tongues a manifestation instead of a gift. I have nothing to do with it. I simply prefer calling it what God calls it. The gift is holy spirit. That gift has nine different ways of manifesting into the material world. Mixing up gifts and manifestations only confuses the matter to the point where the truth is lost. No wonder most Christians don't operate the gift God gave them.

Tell Phillip he didn't do the miracles.

Acts 8:6,

And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he (Phillip) did.
I think your ideas are from the church. Sounds all holy and humble, but it is anything but that when man's ideas are chosen over God's. If God says I can preform miracles that settles it. It's not my own power that does the works. I simply believe in the power of Christ in me. God won't force me to operate that gift. It's up to me to believe and act on what God says. Jesus said you will do the works he did (and more). Believe what Jesus said and you shall receive.
 

iam1me

Active Member
I see what you are saying, but it seems to fly in the face of Jesus telling us we would do what he did and more. I don't see how that can be discounted.

I'm not discounting it - I'm saying that the works that he was talking about were not miracles (which is not really us doing anything, but rather God). Rather, it is in carrying out God's will, helping those in need, sharing the Gospel, teaching people to obey the commandments, etc. that there is any potential for us to do greater deeds. At any rate, talking in tongues certainly doesn't qualify as a greater deed or miracle than anything Christ did.

Believing the scriptures is the first step towards giving your life to God. Without that it's a waste of time. You don't seem to want to believe that tongues is a manifestation. You think that is simply my preference, but it is more than that. It is the truth.

It is God that prefers calling tongues a manifestation instead of a gift. I have nothing to do with it. I simply prefer calling it what God calls it. The gift is holy spirit. That gift has nine different ways of manifesting into the material world. Mixing up gifts and manifestations only confuses the matter to the point where the truth is lost. No wonder most Christians don't operate the gift God gave them.

It is the translators that use the term manifestation. I don't disagree with the fact that tongues are a manifestation - as are all such gifts and miracles of God. All miracles are a manifestation of God's power and authority. It is also a gift - for it is something God has given individuals as he deems fit, and not because one earns it.

Tell Phillip he didn't do the miracles.

Acts 8:6,

And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he (Phillip) did.
I think your ideas are from the church. Sounds all holy and humble, but it is anything but that when man's ideas are chosen over God's. If God says I can preform miracles that settles it. It's not my own power that does the works. I simply believe in the power of Christ in me. God won't force me to operate that gift. It's up to me to believe and act on what God says. Jesus said you will do the works he did (and more). Believe what Jesus said and you shall receive.

It is not Phillip's power doing miracles - he is merely the instrument through which God has done some miracles. It is a matter of perspective and understanding. In one sense, yes Philip performed miracles - but in another sense, no it isn't Philip doing these things. It wasn't Moses who parted the Sea, but God working through Moses. Even Jesus says he does nothing in and of himself. He is given his power and authority.

At any rate, it is not miracles that God wants from us - but love for him and our fellow man, in the same way that Christ loved us. We are to give our lives doing God's will - not chasing after signs & wonders. There are many false prophets and teachers out there to deceive you, if that is what you are after.
 
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rrobs

Well-Known Member
At any rate, it is not miracles that God wants from us - but love for him and our fellow man, in the same way that Christ loved us. We are to give our lives doing God's will - not chasing after signs & wonders. There are many false prophets and teachers out there to deceive you, if that is what you are after.
Manifesting God's love wouldn't include healing the sick, working miracles, casting out devils, etc? Is that not how Jesus manifested the love of God? Man may think they have better ideas, but they don't hold any water compared to God's word.

Chasing after signs and wonders?

Rom 15:19,

Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
Paul apparently didn't see anything wrong with signs and wonders.

The new birth is arguably the most wonderful of all miracles. Am I to believe we shouldn't witness to people lest that leads them to a new life with God? Are we to just let God do His thing without us?

You've brought up the idea of false teachers before. I take that to mean you are insinuating I may have fallen victim to one or that I myself am one. Thanks for your concern, I really do appreciate it but neither is the case. I think I've backed up everything I've said with scripture.

 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
I'm not discounting it - I'm saying that the works that he was talking about were not miracles (which is not really us doing anything, but rather God). Rather, it is in carrying out God's will, helping those in need, sharing the Gospel, teaching people to obey the commandments, etc. that there is any potential for us to do greater deeds. At any rate, talking in tongues certainly doesn't qualify as a greater deed or miracle than anything Christ did.
In one of my posts I listed a few verses that speak to the benefits of speaking in tongues. Paul said he wishes that we would all speak in tongues, that he was glad he spoke in tongues more than the rest of the Corinthians. Would that not therefore be God's will?
It is the translators that use the term manifestation. I don't disagree with the fact that tongues are a manifestation - as are all such gifts and miracles of God. All miracles are a manifestation of God's power and authority. It is also a gift - for it is something God has given individuals as he deems fit, and not because one earns it.
Absolutely correct. We do not earn the holy spirit. It is a gift freely given to us who don't deserve a plug nickel. It is only by God's grace that we have holy spirit. It is not by my own power that I can operate that spirit. I just believe God when he said that I can. Of course the glory goes to him. He took me, dead in trespasses and sins, without God in this world (Eph 2:1), and made me a new creation (2 Cor 5:17) in me. That creation is full of power but God won't force me to use it. It is true that the devil can possess people who perform bogus miracles, but the person doing them will not be doing them by their own free will. They will be forced into doing them. That is not the case when one uses the power of holy spirit to perform miracles. They will be in complete control, by their own free will. It's up to me to learn about that power and then use it in a way that glorifies Him.
It is not Phillip's power doing miracles - he is merely the instrument through which God has done some miracles. It is a matter of perspective and understanding. In one sense, yes Philip performed miracles - but in another sense, no it isn't Philip doing these things. It wasn't Moses who parted the Sea, but God working through Moses. Even Jesus says he does nothing in and of himself. He is given his power and authority.
How can you insuate in any way shape or form that Philip did not perform the miracles? The verse I quoted was plain as day, "...hearing and seeing the miracles which he (Philip) did." There should be no discussion on this. The scriptures say Philip did the miracles and that is what they mean. There is no need to "translate" this verse, to add to it, or take anything away from it. It simply says what it means and means what it says. As a Christian, I know you mean to respect God's word, but it appears you may be having a bit of trouble with it. You keep qualifying simple concepts that God makes quite clear in His word. I say that with love and not just to criticize. I sincerely hope and pray that your thinking will one day change and you will begin using the power God gave you via the nine manifestations.
At any rate, it is not miracles that God wants from us - but love for him and our fellow man, in the same way that Christ loved us. We are to give our lives doing God's will - not chasing after signs & wonders. There are many false prophets and teachers out there to deceive you, if that is what you are after.
I've not ever seen anything in the scriptures that even hints at God not wanting us to operate the gift He gave us, holy spirit.

Acts 10:38,

How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
God has given us the same holy spirit and power He gave Jesus. Christ dwells in you (Col 1:27), so whatever power he had you now have. Humility is subjecting one's own ideas, no matter how pious and holy they may appear, to the words that God speaks in the scriptures.

I understand your concerns about false teachers. After all, to our natural man mind it does seem somehow blasphemous to claim that we can do what Jesus did. But I just forget my two bit brain and believe what God says no matter how fantastic it may seem. Once one gets used to doing that, they will be able to show the love of God in a way that surpasses anything man can possibly conceive. Signs, wonders, and miracles are God's idea, not man's. Perhaps your pastor has placed undue emphasis on false teachers, causing fear in you.

1John 4:18,

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
Where there is fear, there is no love. God bless...
 
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rrobs

Well-Known Member
There are many false prophets and teachers out there to deceive you, if that is what you are after.
Couldn't have been said any better. There are false prophets and teachers and we do need to be careful. The question becomes, how does one know who is false and who is true? As usual, we can go to the scriptures for an answer.

1John 4:1-2,

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
As you yourself have said several times. The scriptures back up what you say. We are to try the spirit to see if it is true. Verse 2 is the acid test.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:​

Now I will just quote one more verse and let you draw your own conclusion, but note from the context it is speaking about the gift of holy spirit and the manifestations of that gift.

1Cor 12:3,

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
I'll give you a hint on the words "Holy Ghost." Here they are capitalized which insinuates that it is a proper noun, i.e. God. This is important to understand; the Greek texts were written all in capital letters. There was no distinction between capital and small letters. It was a scribe who decided to make that distinction and not God. Sometimes the words are talking about God and should be capitalized, but not always. God is often called the Holy Spirit (Ghost) and as such it should be capitalized. But God, the Holy Spirit, gave us his gift which is also holy spirit, but being a gift and not a title, it should not have been capitalized. The only way to tell if a scripture is talking about God, Holy Spirit, or the gift He gives us, holy spirit, is by context. Take for example the verse I just quoted, 1 Cor 12:3. The words "Holy Ghost" are not talking about the giver, but the gift. As such they should not have been capitalized. This verse simply says that it is only by the gift of holy spirit that we can have a relationship with Jesus. Without the gift of holy spirit we have nothing to do with God or His son. Here is a good article on the subject: The Giver and The Gift - Gifts from the Lord | BiblicalUnitarian.com

It's a good article. It takes a bit of time to absorb. It's not something that can be casually read. It takes some study and thought, but it will hopefully give you some information that will enhance your walk with the father. God bless...
 

iam1me

Active Member
Manifesting God's love wouldn't include healing the sick, working miracles, casting out devils, etc? Is that not how Jesus manifested the love of God? Man may think they have better ideas, but they don't hold any water compared to God's word.

Miracles served to testify that God was with Christ, that he was sent by God. Like previous prophets, he had been given power to demonstrate as much. These are not the basis upon which we say that Jesus loves us, or that God loves us. Rather, Jesus himself makes plain what the ultimate act of love is:


John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.​

Giving your live for the sake of others is the greatest act of love - and there is no miracle needed for this. And this is what we are called to do.


Luke 9:23-26 Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it. 25 What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit their very self? 26 Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.​

Chasing after signs and wonders?

Rom 15:19,

Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
Paul apparently didn't see anything wrong with signs and wonders.

The new birth is arguably the most wonderful of all miracles. Am I to believe we shouldn't witness to people lest that leads them to a new life with God? Are we to just let God do His thing without us?

You've brought up the idea of false teachers before. I take that to mean you are insinuating I may have fallen victim to one or that I myself am one. Thanks for your concern, I really do appreciate it but neither is the case. I think I've backed up everything I've said with scripture.

There is nothing wrong with signs and wonders being provided - but there is a problem with chasing after them.


Matthew 24:24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.​

^ Case and point: all the evangelical Trump supporters.

images
 
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iam1me

Active Member
In one of my posts I listed a few verses that speak to the benefits of speaking in tongues. Paul said he wishes that we would all speak in tongues, that he was glad he spoke in tongues more than the rest of the Corinthians. Would that not therefore be God's will?

There is more than one place where Paul gives his personal opinion - and they should not be confused with God's will. Paul himself makes it plain that - no, not everyone gets the gift of tongues. Tongues is only one of many gifts that one might receive as part of the larger body of Christ - as it serves the Lord's will. Also, the fact that Paul wishes that all would speak in tongues is itself further testament to the fact that: no, not everyone speaks in tongues. Else he wouldn't be wishing that that were the case.

Absolutely correct. We do not earn the holy spirit. It is a gift freely given to us who don't deserve a plug nickel. It is only by God's grace that we have holy spirit. It is not by my own power that I can operate that spirit. I just believe God when he said that I can. Of course the glory goes to him. He took me, dead in trespasses and sins, without God in this world (Eph 2:1), and made me a new creation (2 Cor 5:17) in me. That creation is full of power but God won't force me to use it. It is true that the devil can possess people who perform bogus miracles, but the person doing them will not be doing them by their own free will. They will be forced into doing them. That is not the case when one uses the power of holy spirit to perform miracles. They will be in complete control, by their own free will. It's up to me to learn about that power and then use it in a way that glorifies Him.

There is no learning involved with the gifts of the Holy Spirit. If you are given tongues, you will instantly know to speak in tongues. If you are given the power to part seas, you don't need to practice - have faith and it will happen. If you are attempting to acquire such things - they are not gifts. If anything, they are more akin to studying magic as with Simon the Sorcerer.


Acts 2:4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

Acts 8:18-23 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money 19 and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” 20 Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. 23 For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”

How can you insuate in any way shape or form that Philip did not perform the miracles? The verse I quoted was plain as day, "...hearing and seeing the miracles which he (Philip) did." There should be no discussion on this. The scriptures say Philip did the miracles and that is what they mean. There is no need to "translate" this verse, to add to it, or take anything away from it. It simply says what it means and means what it says. As a Christian, I know you mean to respect God's word, but it appears you may be having a bit of trouble with it. You keep qualifying simple concepts that God makes quite clear in His word. I say that with love and not just to criticize. I sincerely hope and pray that your thinking will one day change and you will begin using the power God gave you via the nine manifestations.

You lack understanding on the nature of miracles. When someone sent by God does miracles, it is not they who do them. They are merely the instrument through which God does such deeds. Thus those sent by God may demonstrate that they have been sent by God.

Acts 2:22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

Acts 19:11 God did extraordinary miracles through Paul

Deuteronomy 6:22 Before our eyes the Lord sent signs and wonders—great and terrible—on Egypt and Pharaoh and his whole household. (NOTE: The Lord, not Moses)

Romans 15:18-19 I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done— 19 by the power of signs and wonders, through the power of the Spirit of God.

I've not ever seen anything in the scriptures that even hints at God not wanting us to operate the gift He gave us, holy spirit.

If you have been given such a gift, then by all means use it. However, if you had such a gift - you wouldn't need to learn to use it. Don't be like Simon, chasing after the ability to perform signs and wonders.

Signs, wonders, and miracles are God's idea, not man's. Perhaps your pastor has placed undue emphasis on false teachers, causing fear in you.


1 Cor 1:18-25 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.” 20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.​

1John 4:18,

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
Where there is fear, there is no love. God bless...

This is not a matter of fear for myself; I am not one who would be deceived by pallor tricks. However, I know many are easily deceived, chasing after signs and wonders. One relative I know would send their limited paychecks to such a false teacher/prophet because he would "magically" cause gold to come from his finger tips - and on that basis tell people to send him their money so that they could be blessed with riches and the like.

At any rate, as I have said, it is not miracles that God desires from us (which is not us doing anything, but God), but rather love.
 

iam1me

Active Member
As you yourself have said several times. The scriptures back up what you say. We are to try the spirit to see if it is true. Verse 2 is the acid test.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:​

Note: this says spirit, not man. Men are more corrupt - they may confess with their lips that Jesus is Lord, while their actions are entirely contrary to his teachings.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Miracles served to testify that God was with Christ, that he was sent by God. Like previous prophets, he had been given power to demonstrate as much. These are not the basis upon which we say that Jesus loves us, or that God loves us. Rather, Jesus himself makes plain what the ultimate act of love is:

John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.​

Giving your live for the sake of others is the greatest act of love - and there is no miracle needed for this. And this is what we are called to do.

Luke 9:23-26 Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it. 25 What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit their very self? 26 Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
Very well put. There is nothing you said that isn't scriptural, so only a fool would argue. Love is certainly a good thing, but it in no way means love somehow negate miracles. They actually go hand in hand. I don't see why one eliminates the other.

There is nothing wrong with signs and wonders being provided - but there is a problem with chasing after them.

Matthew 24:24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.​
Those are but 2 of many verses that speak of miracles. They are of course true but, again, they don't discount the performance of true miracles. To rightly divide the word of truth requires that the worker of that word consider all verses on a given subject. I can't help but see many clear verses that say we are to manifest the gift of holy spirit. Miracles is one of them. Doing the works of Christ is another. There are many more. Somehow you need to fit the verses you quoted with the many clear verses that advocate miracles. You can't throw away verses that don't appear to match a few verses on a given subject. You have to make them all fit because God's word is perfect.

I'm not 100% sure on what you mean by "chasing" after miracles. Is there something I said that indicates I'm advocating chasing after miracles? Are you saying any miracle is from the devil?

Jesus said we will do the works he did. What was his attitude when performing miracles, healing the sick, or casting out devils?

John 8:28,

Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.​

John 14:10,

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.​

If you healed a friend from cancer the glory would go to God, not yourself. Would you go around telling people that you healed your friend by your own power? Of course not! Neither would any scripture believing Christian. The glory always goes to God. No question about that.

^ Case and point: all the evangelical Trump supporters.
It is a sad day for Christendom when believers resort to putting their trust in any person. Our walk with God should never depend on a Trump or a Clinton. The real problem with America is spiritual, not presidential. The answer lies in the scriptures not the voting polls. I'm not saying not to vote. I am saying not to forget God because He is our sufficiency.

A bit on tongues:

Most Christian's experience with tongues is someone suddenly jumping up in the middle of the service and begin speaking in tongues. Sometimes they end up rolling around on the floor. Corinthians makes it clear that the manifestations are to be decent and in order (1 Cor 14:4). The behavior above hardly qualifies as decent and in order, so it is a mishandling of the manifestation of tongues. There is no problem with the tongues, it's a problem with how they are done.

Tongues are for one's private prayer life. They build up that believer spiritually (1 Cor 14:4a, Gal 3:1-3). They can be done out loud or in the mind, but never in public or in a group of believers. In a group tongues should be operated decently and in order and they must be translated so the whole body gets edified (1 Cor 14:4b). Very few churches understand the proper usage of tongues with interpretation, but it's all laid out in 1 Cor 14.

I attend fellowships where at some point the leader will call on a particular individual to speak in tongues and interpret. That person stands up and in a normal voice totally under their own control speaks in tongues and then gives the interpretation. It is always aligned with the word and gives the body comfort, hope, and edification. After they speak they calmly sit down and the leader may call upon another to speak in tongues or give a word of prophecy. Tongues with interpretation is equal to prophecy (prophecy is not limited to predicting the future. Scripturally, prophecy is a word from God to the body of believers for comfort and edification). Everything is done decently and in order. The believer who speaks is in complete control. God never possesses and makes someone speak in tongues or any other manifestation against their will. That is what the devil does when he possesses people to perform the false miracles you mentioned. Discerning of spirits, one of the manifestations, can be energized to tell the difference. Otherwise it is just guessing. I think you will find that all of that aligns with 1 Cor 14.
 
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rrobs

Well-Known Member
Note: this says spirit, not man. Men are more corrupt - they may confess with their lips that Jesus is Lord, while their actions are entirely contrary to his teachings.
If someone is born again they have spirit. The gift of holy spirit is what makes a person a Christian. You can't tell by a person's actions or appearance whether or not they are born again. The new birth is an inside, spiritual work God does in the believer the moment they confess Jesus as Lord and believe God raised them from above (Rom 10:4).

1Pet 1:23,

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
When you entered the scene the day you were born you had your father's seed in you. Unfortunately that seed is corruptible. In other words you end up dying at some point. But the seed God planted in you when you were born again is incorruptible. I think it is a big problem that many Christians don't believe God on this simple and clear cut verse. They think that somehow they can do, or not do, something that completely undoes the work God did. They don't believe Jesus did a complete job. They don't really believe the seed is incorruptible. Instead they think it depends on their b future ehavior. They work on the flesh even though the man they claim to be their Lord, Jesus Christ, said in no uncertain terms that there is no good thing in the flesh.

John 6:63,

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
While many Christians want to argue the point, Paul understood what that means. Read the 7th chapter of Romans to see how Paul handled his flesh. It's not what most churches teach, that much is for sure.

Rom 7:18,

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
God judges by looking at the heart, not the flesh. Christians should follow suit.
 
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rrobs

Well-Known Member
If you have been given such a gift, then by all means use it. However, if you had such a gift - you wouldn't need to learn to use it. Don't be like Simon, chasing after the ability to perform signs and wonders.
What do you mean by "if" I've been given such a gift? Every Christian has been given the gift of holy spirit. There is no ifs, ands, or buts. They absolutely have the gift. The question is whether or not they will operate that gift, whether they will manifest it into the material world via one or more of the nine manifestations, thereby glorifying God.

With all due respect, I think you are getting tricked out of manifesting God's power because somebody has you hyper-spooked about chasing after signs and wonders. I think you are blowing it way out of proportion. That one verse in no way negates the many many verses that say we have Christ in us (Col 1:27) and can therefore do the works he did. In fact he said we'd do more works than he did. What could that possible mean? We are filled, not with the Jesus that walked this earth, but we are filled with the resurrected Christ. Things changed with his resurrection. Before his resurrection nobody could be born again. It was not available until the day of Pentecost. Now that you have the risen Christ within, you can lead someone into the new birth. Jesus could not do that because it wasn't available until the resurrection.

The new birth is, as I've said somewhere, the greatest miracle of all. It is the miracle of miracles. Are you to tell me you shouldn't lead someone into the new birth because it would mean you are "chasing after miracles" and "glorifying yourself?" I don't think so. So if you are willing to do more that Jesus did, what is stopping you from obeying John 14:12 and doing the same works he did? There is such a thing as false humility. I think Jesus made that plain on more than one occasion when speaking to the "holier than thou" attitude of the Pharisees. But following the directive Jesus gave us in John 14:12 hardly qualifies as false humility. Elevating one's own ideas above the scriptures is indeed false humility. Sad to say, it runs rampant in Christendom. People say they believe, but their actions indicate otherwise.

Would you dare say you are as righteous as God Himself! Most would consider that blasphemy. Seems it ought to be blasphemy, but it's not.

Rom 3:22,

Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Humility is saying what God says. If He says I'm as righteous as He is, then the question is settled. It would be blasphemy to suggest I am not as righteous as God.

I'm pretty sure you still don't understand the difference between the gift and the manifestations of that gift. Paul knew that the Corinthians were quite carnal. Bickering, incest, going to law against a brother, drunkenness, and more were rampant in the church at Corinth. One of the results of that situation was that they didn't understand spiritual matters. Sadly little has changed in 2,000 years.

1Cor 12:1,

Now concerning spiritual [gifts], brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
This is from the KJV. The word "gifts" is in italic print which means the translators of the KJV added that word. It was not in the original text. They were trying to make it clearer for the reader, but they ended up making it worse. The word "spiritual" is the Greek word "pneumaticos" which is better translated as, "spiritual matters." Those spiritual matters consisted of several different things which Paul mentions in the 12th chapter of 1 Cor. Verses 4 through 7 mention gifts, administrations, operations, and manifestations. They are all different things that must be kept straight in order to understand spiritual matters. Mix them up and true spiritual understanding takes a back seat to opinion, emotion, and human logic. Not a good thing!
 
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