Malakh Adonai

[Epic Beard Man]

Shalom my friend,

When Moses spoke to God it is my understanding that Moses was speaking with a Malakh or messenger of God, but I'm wondering whether the situation where Moses speaks with this angel or messenger, was the angel in this moment being some sort of linguistic intercessor between Moses and God? What is the significance from the Jewish perspective concerning this? I'm still after all these years confused what the significance of the burning bush meant concerning the angelic messenger.

 

[rosends]

In Ex 3, Moses sees a burning bush and then perceives an angel in its midst. However as soon as the talking begins the text says (verse 4) that God does the talking and listening. The angel is not a factor after verse 2.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

In Ex 3, Moses sees a burning bush and then perceives an angel in its midst. However as soon as the talking begins the text says (verse 4) that God does the talking and listening. The angel is not a factor after verse 2.

So Moses perceives the angel but I am curious about the rabbinical commentary on whether this was an intercession between man and God through an angel.

 

[rosends]

I don't think anyone views the angel as an intercessor though there is discussion about which angel it was and what his purpose was. I recommend reading the Tur Ha'Aroch on the verse -- he sums up the other opinions well.

Exodus 3:2

 

[Tumah]

whether this was an intercession between man and God through an angel.

Can you explain what you mean by intercession?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Can you explain what you mean by intercession?

I perhaps used the wrong word, but what I meant is, is the Malakh Adonai a representation of a medium between Moses and God? As in from the philosophical and theological perspective, the faculties of humankind are incapable of perceiving and processing the directness of God himself (of course it is arguable all things are possible), and that the angel represents the medium between Moses and God. I guess I would say the Malakh Adonai represents the "voice of God?!?" I am confused due to the overwhelming Christian interpretation of the event Moses experienced here.

 

[Tumah]

I perhaps used the wrong word, but what I meant is, is the Malakh Adonai a representation of a medium between Moses and God? As in from the philosophical and theological perspective, the faculties of humankind are incapable of perceiving and processing the directness of God himself (of course it is arguable all things are possible), and that the angel represents the medium between Moses and God. I guess I would say the Malakh Adonai represents the "voice of God?!?" I am confused due to the overwhelming Christian interpretation of the event Moses experienced here.

The word "malach" means "messenger" in Hebrew. The angel acts on behalf of G-d. I don't know what competing explanations you know of that make this unclear.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

The word "malach" means "messenger" in Hebrew. The angel acts on behalf of G-d. I don't know what competing explanations you know of that make this unclear.

My question is who was the voice? Was it God or a messenger who spoke to Moses on behalf of God? If it’s the latter is the angel acting as a medium between Moses and God? Forgive me but the confusion comes from the years of Christian teachings concerning the encounter and the amount of confused knowledge that exists on the internet.

 

[Tumah]

My question is who was the voice? Was it God or a messenger who spoke to Moses on behalf of God? If it’s the latter is the angel acting as a medium between Moses and God? Forgive me but the confusion comes from the years of Christian teachings concerning the encounter and the amount of confused knowledge that exists on the internet.

It's always an angel. G-d is a consuming fire. There is no direct interface with G-d Himself for anyone or anything or it would immediately cease to exist. Everything is just representative expressions of the Divine Will.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

There is no direct interface with G-d Himself for anyone or anything or it would immediately cease to exist.

Interesting as it states in the Qur'an:

"And when Moses came [to Mount Sinai] at the time set by Us, and his Sustainer spoke unto him, he said: "O my Sustainer! Show [Thyself] unto me, so that I might behold Thee!" Said [God]: "Never canst thou see Me. However, behold this mountain: if it remains firm in its place, then - only then - wilt thou see Me. And as soon as his Sustainer revealed His glory to the mountain, He caused it to crumble to dust; and Moses fell down in a swoon. And when he came to himself, he said: "Limitless art Thou in Thy glory! Unto Thee do I turn in repentance; and I shall [always] be the first to believe in Thee!"

7:143

Thank you for the explanation

 

[Tumah]

Interesting as it states in the Qur'an:

"And when Moses came [to Mount Sinai] at the time set by Us, and his Sustainer spoke unto him, he said: "O my Sustainer! Show [Thyself] unto me, so that I might behold Thee!" Said [God]: "Never canst thou see Me. However, behold this mountain: if it remains firm in its place, then - only then - wilt thou see Me. And as soon as his Sustainer revealed His glory to the mountain, He caused it to crumble to dust; and Moses fell down in a swoon. And when he came to himself, he said: "Limitless art Thou in Thy glory! Unto Thee do I turn in repentance; and I shall [always] be the first to believe in Thee!"

7:143

Thank you for the explanation

Fainting is not quite the same as ceasing to exist.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Fainting is not quite the same as ceasing to exist.

I was referring to the red.....The mountain crumbled when it saw a glimpse of God's glory meaning in reference to what you stated that nobody no organism can see God because as you say would cease to exist ergo, me quoting the Qur'an part about the mountain.

 

[Tumah]

I was referring to the red.....The mountain crumbled when it saw a glimpse of God's glory meaning in reference to what you stated that nobody no organism can see God because as you say would cease to exist ergo, me quoting the Qur'an part about the mountain.

Oh, I see what you mean. I can see why you would make the comparison, even though I don't think they're quite the same.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Oh, I see what you mean. I can see why you would make the comparison, even though I don't think they're quite the same.

Well praise be the Creator

 

[dantech]

It's always an angel. G-d is a consuming fire. There is no direct interface with G-d Himself for anyone or anything or it would immediately cease to exist. Everything is just representative expressions of the Divine Will.

Isn't it out our belief that God spoke to moses directly, face to face? I'm confused now.

 

[Tumah]

Isn't it out our belief that God spoke to moses directly, face to face? I'm confused now.

But doesn't that have to be a metaphor for something since G-d doesn't have a face or a mouth nor is He divisible so that we can point to a face or mouth? The Or HaChaim (Ex. 33:11) explains that פנים אל פנים means that the degree of preparation that Moses would invest before each "conversation" would determine the degree of perception he attained in that prophecy. Just like we says כמים פנים אל פנים, "like water face to face, so is the heart of a person to a[nother] person (Pro. 27:19)" that the feeling in one's heart towards a person evokes a similar feeling in one's friend or enemy.

 

[dantech]

But doesn't that have to be a metaphor for something since G-d doesn't have a face or a mouth nor is He divisible so that we can point to a face or mouth? The Or HaChaim (Ex. 33:11) explains that פנים אל פנים means that the degree of preparation that Moses would invest before each "conversation" would determine the degree of perception he attained in that prophecy. Just like we says כמים פנים אל פנים, "like water face to face, so is the heart of a person to a[nother] person (Pro. 27:19)" that the feeling in one's heart towards a person evokes a similar feeling in one's friend or enemy.

I always thought it was a metaphor for the rest of us to understand the relationship between God and Moshe. However, I also thought that Moses was in direct contact with whatever part of himself Hashem decided moses Moses was ready to "see"...

 

[Tumah]

I always thought it was a metaphor for the rest of us to understand the relationship between God and Moshe. However, I also thought that Moses was in direct contact with whatever part of himself Hashem decided moses Moses was ready to "see"...

It is a metaphor for us about the relationship between Hashem and Moses. Maybe by way of an analogy, let's take a person, there's a soul, which sort of sits in the mind which sends messages through the nerves which sit in the body which affects the environment. Normally, you can only interact with a person either through a shared environment, or if you're close, through they're limbs. In a similar vein, normally we can only interact with G-d in this world, our environment, through avodas Hashem. A prophet can also directly communicate with Hashem's "limbs", the various angels that appear in Na"ch. And Moses was able to bypass those messengers and connect directly to G-d's "nerves" or "brain". All these levels are still perceivable, even if they are increasingly esoteric. But the "soul" representing Hashem Himself, what we call the עצמות will always be imperceptible and unfathomable. Where I was coming from earlier, was to say that from the perspective of the "soul" everything successive stage is an intermediary between it and us. But from the level of the "fingers" the angels, connecting to the brain is a direct connection to G-d.