1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Magic

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by WalterTrull, Sep 23, 2019.

  1. WalterTrull

    WalterTrull Godfella

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2017
    Messages:
    2,357
    Ratings:
    +932
    How does life created by a certain organization of atoms differ from magic?
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Creative Creative x 1
  2. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2011
    Messages:
    12,856
    Ratings:
    +4,883
    Religion:
    Atheist Libertarian
    A cause and effect which can be verified/tested.

    Magic assumes the reality of supernatural causes. Supernatural causes can't be falsified so basically you can imply any cause and effect relationship and not worry about it being shown to be wrong.
     
  3. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2010
    Messages:
    26,303
    Ratings:
    +10,436
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    Magic is smoke and mirrors: "Pick a card. Any card." What you pick really isn't any card at all. Life created by a certain organization of atoms is actually life created by a certain organization of atoms.

    .
     
  4. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    15,518
    Ratings:
    +10,955
    Religion:
    None
    Chemistry and magic are not the same
     
  5. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    Messages:
    4,015
    Ratings:
    +2,887
    Religion:
    RC (culturally at least)
    1) Magic doesn't exist.

    2) Life does.

    3) Once there was no life.

    Ergo, life came to be, by some non-magical process that we are only just beginning to understand.
     
  6. WalterTrull

    WalterTrull Godfella

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2017
    Messages:
    2,357
    Ratings:
    +932
    I don't know... that chemistry works seems rather magical.
     
  7. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    Messages:
    4,015
    Ratings:
    +2,887
    Religion:
    RC (culturally at least)
    Aha, well, you see, you should have studied chemistry! ;)

    Actually it helps a lot of you know a bit of thermodynamics. The big apparent puzzle about life is the way ordered systems apparently arise from a less highly ordered state. But it is all driven by the "running down" of heat, from the high temperature of the sun (i.e. where our light comes from)* to the low temperature of cold space. This increases entropy, so, overall, the level of disorder is increasing, just as you would expect.


    *Some of it may have been driven by high temperature from other sources, such as the interior of the Earth.
     
    #7 exchemist, Sep 23, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
  8. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    15,518
    Ratings:
    +10,955
    Religion:
    None
    Nope, just chemistry, rather like baking a cake, that works to, why, its chemistry, not magic
     
  9. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    8,186
    Ratings:
    +3,947
    Religion:
    atheist
    OMG!

    It must be magic!

    [​IMG]

    Those hydrogen atoms just like to stick to oxygen atoms. And they all do it in the same way! It must be magic!
     
    • Like Like x 2
  10. WalterTrull

    WalterTrull Godfella

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2017
    Messages:
    2,357
    Ratings:
    +932
    I guess I’ll have to agree with you there.

    Ditto

    Hmm.. Requires an agreement about time.

    There’s that time thing again. Agreed that life is not magical and we’re only beginning to understand it.
     
  11. WalterTrull

    WalterTrull Godfella

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2017
    Messages:
    2,357
    Ratings:
    +932
    Absolutely amazing... and magical
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  12. WalterTrull

    WalterTrull Godfella

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2017
    Messages:
    2,357
    Ratings:
    +932
    My feeling exactly!
     
  13. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    3,265
    Ratings:
    +995
    Religion:
    LDS (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints)
    Bull.

    Sorry, but....bull.

    I'm a firm follower of Clark's three laws, the third of which...and the most famous, is:

    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

    "Magic" is the name given by the ignorant to things done by people who know how. Just because YOU don't think something is possible because YOU can't find and identify the precise cause....yet....doesn't mean it can't be done.

    If you don't think so, try putting yourself in the shoes of some early student of, say, Ptolemy, and consider what HE would think of living in a home powered by solar panels.

    Are you of the opinion that we, the human race and all the scientists in it, are at the peak of our knowledge and cannot learn to do more amazing stuff.....that WE could ascribe to magic?

    The point is, that if any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, that is, you CAN'T TELL THEM APART, then (whisper this) They are the same thing.

    Look you. Look at all the miracles related in the bible (well, except the stopping the earth thing at Jericho and perhaps the world wide flood, though modern climate change people seem to believe we are well on the way to duplicating THAT). There isn't a single one that OUR sufficiently advanced civilization can't replicate. With a great deal of expense, trouble and time, and generally to no purpose, but I can't think of one.

    So when I hear someone say 'magic' what I REALLY hear is 'we haven't got a clue how to do that." I do NOT hear "only God or the devil can do that." For one thing, I've NEVER heard that 'magic' had to involve a deity.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  14. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    21,569
    Ratings:
    +9,330
    Religion:
    Vedanta (reform)
    Magic is effect without natural cause. Abiogenesis seeks to explain the mechanisms of life using known, observable, testable chemistry and physics.
     
  15. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2011
    Messages:
    12,856
    Ratings:
    +4,883
    Religion:
    Atheist Libertarian
    These are ideas for fictional writing. :shrug:

    Like Asimov's robotic laws or the Prime Directive from Star Trek.
     
  16. Ouroboros

    Ouroboros Coincidentia oppositorum
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2013
    Messages:
    9,448
    Ratings:
    +2,850
    Religion:
    Dual-aspect pantheist
    Life is magical for sure. And we can make magic happen in our life and others as well. Just be good and kind. :)
     
  17. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    3,265
    Ratings:
    +995
    Religion:
    LDS (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints)
    No, Azimovs laws are part of his fiction. So is the 'Prime Directive."

    Clark's laws are observations by someone who also writes fiction. He ALSO had degrees....well, here:

    Clarke's Laws are a series of three rules attributed to science fiction legend Arthur C. Clarke, intended to help define ways to consider claims about the future of scientific developments. These laws do not contain much in the way of predictive power, so scientists rarely have any reason to explicitly include them in their scientific work.
    Despite this, the sentiments that they express generally resonate with scientists, which is understandable since Clarke held degrees in physics and mathematics, so was of a scientific way of thinking himself. Clarke is often credited with having developed the idea of using satellites with geostationary orbits as a telecommunications relay system, based on a paper he wrote in 1945. (Andrew Zimmerman)

    As a matter of fact, those three laws were NOT written as part of his science fiction oeuvre...they were published as part of essays written for his scientific peers.

    You COULD address the observations themselves rather than dismiss them because Clark wrote science fiction. I mean, really....that's more than a little arrogant of you, don't you think?

    ....unless you think that someone with degrees in Physics and Mathematics, and who invented the idea of communications satellites, isn't scientific enough to observe, and comment upon, certain perceived truths of life and science that can be codified into 'laws?"
     
    #17 dianaiad, Sep 23, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
  18. Guitar's Cry

    Guitar's Cry Verisimilitudinous

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2006
    Messages:
    12,042
    Ratings:
    +1,768
    Religion:
    Panreligious mystical paganism
    It doesn't. Many people who profess to be magic users come to the realization that magic is energy flow.
     
  19. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    21,569
    Ratings:
    +9,330
    Religion:
    Vedanta (reform)
    Energy flow sounds like physics -- the opposite of magic.
     
  20. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2011
    Messages:
    12,856
    Ratings:
    +4,883
    Religion:
    Atheist Libertarian
    Ok, sure. Tell me, what is the scientific definition of magic? Or at least in the context of Clarke's essay, in his use of the term, what do you think he meant?
     
Loading...