Magic mistakes linked to some mental illnesses?

[Theweirdtophat]

I've been studying this and I wanted people to think about this. I don't think it's just crazy and people should dismiss it because I think it might explain certain things with mental illnesses. Have you noticed some crazy pepople can hear voices or that they are being commanded to do certain things? One would think they are crazy but perhaps maybe they actually are hearing voices. Maybe the voices are a hostile spirit, coercing them and tormenting them to do certain things. I don't think it's a crazy coincedence that some people who have claimed to hear voices have once dabbled into the occult and did things they shouldn't have done or a ritual backfired and are paying for it. I've not only read about it but personally know people that dabbled into that kind of stuff and they were in mental hospitals.

Just food for thought.

 

[Quintessence]

Dangerous food for thought, to most.

It is very taboo nowadays to dare suggest approaching human health and wellness from any standpoint that goes against Enlightenment values and evidence-backed, empirical methodology (aka, sciences). Doing so is believed to be a detriment to the health and wellness of people and a step backwards. It is especially taboo to speak of "hearing voices" in a culture that disregards the importance of the otherworlds, or the existence of the otherworlds (or particular parts of the otherworlds) entirely.

In the files I have written about the subject of the otherworlds and journeywork, I have one very important line set off from the rest of the text to emphasize its importance. It goes something like this:

Be careful who you talk to, and be careful what you say. ​

Contemporary psychology and medicine offer one explanation of many for human health and wellness. While we dismiss non-science explanations and in particular regard otherworldly ones as taboo, that does not make them necessarily invalid. But they might as well be, with how taboo the explanatory model is in our culture.

What's important to ask is thus: what is the story you want to tell yourself? What is the meaning that emerges from that story, and what useful functions can it have? Does the story serve you in a positive way, a negative way, or a neutral way?

 

[Geoff-Allen]

Interesting thread!

I don't hear actual voices but I have paranoid schizophrenia (since 1983!). I do get thoughts which feel like they are being "transmitted" into my mind. Who is to say that they aren't from a "real" source. Some of the thoughts are most distressing while others are inspiring - so it's a mixed bag.

Not too sure exactly what I am trying to say ...

Cheers!

 

[Theweirdtophat]

I ask because I believe that there are things that science could not explain and this might be one of them. After all when you first hear of people who say they hear voices that you can't hear, it doesn't make sense at first. But perhaps a spirit attached to them and a hostile one at that, tormenting them and driving them to do things they normally wouldn't do. I've known people who messed around with rituals and did certain spells they shouldn't have done and had suffered "side"effects" both physical and mental like nightmares, throwing up, hearing things that aren't there. I don't blame magic or think magic itself is evil though. I practice magic myself but I stay away from certain kinds of magic and I'm always moral and ethical when it comes to practicing it.

 

[Jainarayan]

Personally I wouldn't reject this out of hand. There is too much in the universe and in our realm of existence we don't understand. To think we do understand and know, and dismiss something like this based on 150 years of psychiatry is the height of hubris. Does it mean that David Berkowitz should be given a pass? Of course not. Spirits or not, law and order has to be maintained.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I ask because I believe that there are things that science could not explain and this might be one of them. After all when you first hear of people who say they hear voices that you can't hear, it doesn't make sense at first. But perhaps a spirit attached to them and a hostile one at that, tormenting them and driving them to do things they normally wouldn't do. I've known people who messed around with rituals and did certain spells they shouldn't have done and had suffered "side"effects" both physical and mental like nightmares, throwing up, hearing things that aren't there. I don't blame magic or think magic itself is evil though. I practice magic myself but I stay away from certain kinds of magic and I'm always moral and ethical when it comes to practicing it.

On the other side, there are people who see visions and hear voices that are only positive, and result in positive social and personal behaviors on the part of those hearing and seeing. Focusing only on the stories about negative instances is not a reliable way of investigating a phenomenon; it may be sort of like blaming the victim.

Also, there might be an implicit assumption that the magic is the cause, when perhaps pursuit of magic may be a way the individual is trying to deal with voices and visions, pursing magic is an effect rather than a cause. Or, they may be not directly related at all, neither cause nor effect. It's a good topic for investigation and discussion.

 

[Quintessence]

I ask because I believe that there are things that science could not explain and this might be one of them.

There are plenty of scientific explanations for these things. That said, unless one is an adherent of scientism, the scientific explanation is neither the only nor necessarily the best/only/correct explanation for these things. But, as I said, it is very taboo in today's culture to use non-scientific approaches for human health and wellness as it is considered dangerous and irresponsible. In at least some cases, I would agree. In others, I would not and see clear benefits and value to approaching a case differently, especially if your client rejects Western, scientific explanations or comes from a non-Western culture or worldview.

But perhaps a spirit attached to them and a hostile one at that, tormenting them and driving them to do things they normally wouldn't do.

Maybe, but it's been my general impression that things like that are extraordinarily rare. Just as most humans on the planet are not only unaware of your existence, they don't care about you; most otherworldly aspects of reality operate exactly the same way. They won't mess with you, for good or for ill, as a general rule.

I've known people who messed around with rituals and did certain spells they shouldn't have done and had suffered "side"effects" both physical and mental like nightmares, throwing up, hearing things that aren't there.

I've heard of people who have claimed such things, but not satisfactorily substantiated such claims in any way. That's not to say I would dismiss what they say outright, but I have no particular reason to believe their story and a number of reasons to reject it. These narratives I run across are self-defeating, disempowering, unnecessarily moralizing or judgmental, and on the whole, unhealthy. I suppose for those who like added drama to their lives, such stories have some appeal?

 

[Theweirdtophat]

There are plenty of scientific explanations for these things. That said, unless one is an adherent of scientism, the scientific explanation is neither the only nor necessarily the best/only/correct explanation for these things. But, as I said, it is very taboo in today's culture to use non-scientific approaches for human health and wellness as it is considered dangerous and irresponsible. In at least some cases, I would agree. In others, I would not and see clear benefits and value to approaching a case differently, especially if your client rejects Western, scientific explanations or comes from a non-Western culture or worldview.



Maybe, but it's been my general impression that things like that are extraordinarily rare. Just as most humans on the planet are not only unaware of your existence, they don't care about you; most otherworldly aspects of reality operate exactly the same way. They won't mess with you, for good or for ill, as a general rule.



I've heard of people who have claimed such things, but not satisfactorily substantiated such claims in any way. That's not to say I would dismiss what they say outright, but I have no particular reason to believe their story and a number of reasons to reject it. These narratives I run across are self-defeating, disempowering, unnecessarily moralizing or judgmental, and on the whole, unhealthy. I suppose for those who like added drama to their lives, such stories have some appeal?

I'm sure there are, I'm just saying that even science can't prove or even explain everything which is why we have metaphysics. What do you mean non scientific approaches to solving the problems are bad? I believe that whether or not it's "scientific", as long as it works, it's fine. Are you referring to crystal healing as non scientific/

I don't think it's common, but I do think it's much more common than people might think. Those who have easily influenced minds or have messed up rituals possibly have had spirits torment them and make them irrational and cause them to hear voices. Of course there are others who can hear voices that are helpful but the ones who are tormented or say "The devil made me do it!" could be perhaps that there is a hostile spirit that's tormenting them.

I say I know this because I personally know people that have went through it and I know for sure that messing up rituals can lead to problems such as this. Of course I obviously can't prove it here, but I still know it's true. After knowing mentally ill people who became mentally ill due to messing around with spells they shouldn't have messed with, I started putting two and two together, that maybe some people who are mentally ill have messed with and botched up rituals and spells. I don't think it's a coincidence that some mentally ill people have been known to have dabbled with things they shouldn't have dabbled with.

 

[Quintessence]

What do you mean non scientific approaches to solving the problems are bad? I believe that whether or not it's "scientific", as long as it works, it's fine. Are you referring to crystal healing as non scientific/

Well, crystal healing is non-scientific, but no, I wasn't specifically referencing it. Really I just wanted to point out that many consider non-scientific approaches to health and wellness dangerous (not "bad" - I am uninterested in such moralizing), and for good reason. A scientific, evidence-driven approach helps ensure treatments done have efficacy - that they are demonstrated to really work on a consistent basis and perhaps more importantly, that they are safe. People who defer to alternatives may be denying themselves what they really need to help themselves, or worse, engage in behaviors that will actually harm them or make their condition worse. This doesn't always happen, of course, but it happens often enough that I certainly don't blame others for having intense skepticism of "alternative" medicine. There are other problems that plague the "alternative" medicine stuff, but I think that conversation is probably beyond our scope here.

I don't think it's common, but I do think it's much more common than people might think. Those who have easily influenced minds or have messed up rituals possibly have had spirits torment them and make them irrational and cause them to hear voices. Of course there are others who can hear voices that are helpful but the ones who are tormented or say "The devil made me do it!" could be perhaps that there is a hostile spirit that's tormenting them.

Sure. Considering our culture turns a blind eye to the otherworlds in general, in mainstream culture, it may well be understated. In the communities that actually take the otheworlds seriously, though, I often see it overblown. Though perhaps worse, I also see it outright denied to happen at all.

I say I know this because I personally know people that have went through it and I know for sure that messing up rituals can lead to problems such as this. Of course I obviously can't prove it here, but I still know it's true. After knowing mentally ill people who became mentally ill due to messing around with spells they shouldn't have messed with, I started putting two and two together, that maybe some people who are mentally ill have messed with and botched up rituals and spells. I don't think it's a coincidence that some mentally ill people have been known to have dabbled with things they shouldn't have dabbled with.

Coincidence? What's that? No such thing, sir.

Again, I really feel it boils down to what story you want to weave and considering the consequences of those narratives we hold. If this narrative works and produces desired consequences for you, go for it. So here's a relevant follow up to this: so what? Now that you have decided on this narrative, so what? What does it do for you? How does it influence how you treat others? How you think about yourself? How you approach spellcraft? I'm not asking that you answer those here, necessarily, they're just worth thinking about. I'm a believer in owning the consequences of our maps of the territory, and that requires doing some think-work about how it is shaping the lens through which we see reality.

 

[Jainarayan]

On the other side, there are people who see visions and hear voices that are only positive, and result in positive social and personal behaviors on the part of those hearing and seeing.

St. Bernadette Soubirous comes to mind.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

I actually want to do some statistical research and ask others who suffer mental illnesses and ask them if any of them had practiced or had an interest in the occult. I don't think all of them will say yes, but there might be more people saying yes than one would think . Perhpas they may not have botched up rituals and perhaps they are victims of a psychic attack or curse by someone else who practices magic.

 

[Jainarayan]

I'll be your first survey respondent. I'm as effed up as a football bat:

• Bipolar 2, hypomanic/depressive.
• Social anxiety.
• OCPD.
• Asperger's.

No interest in the occult. In fact, it kind of scares me because it would be my luck to summon all the hounds of every Hell in all the Otherworlds.

 

[Quintessence]

I actually want to do some statistical research and ask others who suffer mental illnesses and ask them if any of them had practiced or had an interest in the occult. I don't think all of them will say yes, but there might be more people saying yes than one would think . Perhpas they may not have botched up rituals and perhaps they are victims of a psychic attack or curse by someone else who practices magic.

I vaguely recall that someone has done this before, albeit the methodology of the survey was poor from what I remember. In any case, I'm skeptical we'd find results of any statistical significance. The baseline rate of mental illness is so high, it's unlikely that it would be any higher for the "occultist" subpopulation. And if it was, it wouldn't demonstrably prove it had to do with their workings. We'd have a chicken and egg problem, especially considering many who feel disempowered are drawn to the occult (I vaguely recall a study about that too).

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

St. Bernadette Soubirous comes to mind.

I was thinking Hildegard of Bingen. There are many!

 

[Quintessence]

I decided to do some digging this afternoon. There is some literature on this, but it'll take me more time to get a solid assessment of it, and I'm not sure I'll take that time. TWTP, I'd suggest you dig around for this stuff at your university library if you're really interested in it. It's out there in the literature already. Just a few papers you could use as a starting point. Interesting stuff. Been a while since I've done any digging on the literature for things like this:

Influence of religious aspects and personal beliefs on psychological behavior: focus on anxiety disorders
Agorastos, Agorastos; Demiralay, Cuneyt; Huber, Christian G

Psychology research and behavior management
Volume:7
Pages:93-101
DOI:10.2147/PRBM.S43666
Published:2014

Abstract
The current paper presents literature relevant to the relationship of religiosity, spirituality, and personal beliefs with mental healthand, in particular, anxiety disorders as an empirical narrative review, providing an overview on the most important and clinically relevant research results on the topic. The relationship between religiosity/spirituality, personal beliefs (ie, magical ideation and paranormal beliefs), and mental health has lately been studied extensively, and results have indicated significant associations among these variables. However, scientific approaches to this field are complex and multidimensional, partly leading to poor operationalization, incomparable data, and contradictory results. Literature demonstrates that higher religiosity/spirituality and magical ideation scores have often been associated with increased obsessive-compulsive traits. Similar results could not be confidently replicated for other anxiety disorders. However, it is still unclear if these differences suggest a specific association with obsessive-compulsive traits and reflect deviating etiopathogenetic and cognitive aspects between obsessive-compulsive disorder and other anxiety disorders, or if these results are biased through other factors. Religiosity/spirituality and personal beliefs constitute important parameters of human experience and deserve greater consideration in the psychotherapeutic treatment of psychiatric disorders.

Distinguishing Spirituality From Other Constructs Not A Matter of Well-Being but of Belief in Supernatural Spirits
By:Lindeman, M (Lindeman, Marjaana)[ 1 ] ; Blomqvist, S (Blomqvist, Sandra)[ 1 ] ; Takada, M (Takada, Mikito)[ 2 ]

JOURNAL OF NERVOUS AND MENTAL DISEASE
Volume: 200
Issue: 2
Pages: 167-173
DOI: 10.1097/NMD.0b013e3182439719
Published: FEB 2012

Abstract
We developed a new Spirituality Scale and tested the argument that the defining attribute of spirituality is belief in supernatural spirits. Study 1 (N = 1931) showed that religiosity and beliefs pertinent to supernatural spirits predicted most of the variation in spirituality. Study 2 (N = 848) showed that the stronger belief in supernatural spirits, the more the person experienced subjective spirituality; that belief in supernatural spirits had higher predictive value of spirituality than religiosity, paranormal beliefs, or values; and that most of the relationship between religiosity and spirituality could be explained through belief in supernatural spirits. Study 3 (N = 972) showed that mental or physical health, social relationships, or satisfaction in marriage or work were not associated with spirituality. In turn, finding life purposeful and inner peace in dealing with spiritual experiences correlated with spirituality. The results highlight the importance of differentiating spirituality from other psychological constructs.

Paranormal experiences, mental health and mental boundaries, and psi
By:Rabeyron, T (Rabeyron, Thomas)[ 1,2 ] ; Watt, C (Watt, Caroline)[ 1 ]

PERSONALITY AND INDIVIDUAL DIFFERENCES
Volume: 48
Issue: 4
Pages: 487-492
DOI: 10.1016/j.paid.2009.11.029
Published: MAR 2010

Abstract
Previous research has suggested that paranormal beliefs and experiences are associated with thinner mental boundaries and traumas during childhood. This paper examines more thoroughly the relationship between paranormal experiences, mental healthand boundaries, and psi abilities. One hundred and sixty two participants completed questionnaires about paranormal experiences (AEI), mental health (MHI-17), mental boundaries (BQ-Sh), traumas during childhood (CATS) and life-changing events (LES). A controlled psi experiment was also conducted. Significant correlations were found between paranormal experiences and mental boundaries, traumas and negative life events. The overall results were non-significant for the psi task and no significant correlation was found between psychological variables and psi results. These findings suggest that mainly mental boundaries concerning unusual experiences and childlikeness are associated with paranormal experiences. They also highlight the importance of association between emotional abuse and paranormal experiences, and that paranormal experiences occur especially frequently after negative life events. (C) 2009 Elsevier Ltd. All rights reserved.

Paranormal experiences and mental health: Schizotypy as an underlying factor
By:Schofield, K (Schofield, Kerry); Claridge, G (Claridge, Gordon)

PERSONALITY AND INDIVIDUAL DIFFERENCES
Volume: 43
Issue: 7
Pages: 1908-1916
DOI: 10.1016/j.paid.2007.06.014
Published: NOV 2007

Abstract
Previous research suggests that schizotypy mediates a relationship between paranormal experiences and emotional well-being. We hypothesised therefore that scores on positive schizotypy, negative schizotypy, and cognitive disorganisation might differentially predict participants' subjective evaluation of their paranormal experiences as pleasant or distressing. Sixty participants were self-selected from the internet and completed the O-LIFE questionnaire (Mason, Claridge, & Jackson, 1995) and a measure of subjective evaluation of paranormal experiences (the SEPE). Cognitive disorganisation was found to moderate the association between schizotypy and subjective quality of paranormal experience, with highly cognitive disorganised participants showing a negative schizotypy/distressing experiences relationship, while cognitively organised participants showed a positive schizotypy/pleasant experiences relationship. These results were interpreted in terms of the protective mechanism of having a framework of belief in which to place paranormal experiences, a mechanism more available to cognitively organised individuals. (c) 2007 Elsevier Ltd. All rights reserved.

 

[The Hammer]

I actually want to do some statistical research and ask others who suffer mental illnesses and ask them if any of them had practiced or had an interest in the occult. I don't think all of them will say yes, but there might be more people saying yes than one would think . Perhpas they may not have botched up rituals and perhaps they are victims of a psychic attack or curse by someone else who practices magic.

I am not exactly sure what you deem as the "occult", or "dabbling in the occult". But I have worked magic, rituals, and done a few other things much more questionable. And I have recently been diagnosed with an Anxiety Disorder and intermittent Depression. I don't think there is any correlation between them though. I believe that I had these things prior to any sort of occult dealings, and that due to stressors were exacerbated.

It is an interesting theory that certain spiritual dealings may cause mental disorders, and while I don't dismiss the idea entirely, I would say that this is not the norm by a long shot.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

I am not exactly sure what you deem as the "occult", or "dabbling in the occult". But I have worked magic, rituals, and done a few other things much more questionable. And I have recently been diagnosed with an Anxiety Disorder and intermittent Depression. I don't think there is any correlation between them though. I believe that I had these things prior to any sort of occult dealings, and that due to stressors were exacerbated.

It is an interesting theory that certain spiritual dealings may cause mental disorders, and while I don't dismiss the idea entirely, I would say that this is not the norm by a long shot.

The occult means hidden so much of the magic we practice is occult, but however improperly using magic, such as trying to usurp someone's will or hurt others usually has bad consequences and sometimes the person continues to practice such magic anyway, either because they feel forced to by their spirit or perhaps they are addicted to it, like a drug. Also trying to conjure spirits and command them is rather unwise. No one likes to be controlled and really, I don't think the idea would be implausible if some of the mentally ill people interested in the occult decided to control all those around them and it turned on them and they are paying for it. Studying magic doesn't do this but using it improperly or messing up a ritual, even if your intentions are good, can have consequences.

Some research I looked into showed people were fine until they improperly used magic and they suffer from hearing voices, nightmares, ect. It's not the norm, but it is more common than people might think. Of course they may not have looked into the occult at all and are suffering from an attack who practices the occult, who were cursed by someone by having a bad spirit attached to them. Much like a virus infecting a person.

 

[Quintessence]

Some research I looked into showed people were fine until they improperly used magic and they suffer from hearing voices, nightmares, ect.

Do you have some citations for me to look up? This sort of research is uncommon and difficult to find, so I'm curious to see these studies.

 

[1137]

I think it's a dangerous line of thought. Despite sometime astounding results from psychodrama, people with illnesses need to be treated (well, if they want to get better). What if the anti-vacciners got on board with the idea saying all illness is some sort of occult entity or force, would we let it slide? Adding in the mysticism minimalizes these serious issues. Beside the need for a source, a link between mental illness and occult study is likely as simple as "I experience very unique things, so I need very unique explanations". I tried managing depression with magic alone and it's near impossible since depression is not a matter of will. People should see doctors first, shamans after.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Perhaps different mental illnesses require different metaphysical remedies much like other illnesses. I think both science and magic can play a part but science can't explain everything, which is where metaphysics go. As I've said, I personally know people that messed around with things they shouldn't and they were never the same once they did it. I know it can happen for sure. However one might not have to practice magic, but be a victim of magic, where perhaps someone curses them with a spirit that haunts them in their dreams and torments them with voices. I just believe that all who hear tormenting voices aren't just crazy and perhaps are actually hearing voices, but only voices they can hear. However I've usually encountered people who dabbled with stuff they weren't ready for or were harmful to begin with.

I know power is addicting and people I know, while suffering side effects from the craft, still practice it because the power is addicting, much like a drug, like crack is harmful but they still do it anyway.