Loved ones in hell - take 2.

[ajay0]

Also, how do you deal with the thought of them suffering in eternal torment even though you know that they deserve it?

In Hinduism, there are scriptures which speak of astral dimensions of heaven and hell. The theory is that one enjoys heaven for the good karmas performed and hell for the bad actions performed. There is a lot of precision in this regard, and Chitragupta is the divine accountant who records all the bad and good karmas.

But there is no eternal hell as such, because there is no such thing as eternal karma.

After the negative or positive karmas are exhausted, the soul gets a new chance in a human body through reincarnation and attain God-head or enlightenment.

 

[Secret Chief]

“The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing the world that he did not exist.”

And your own thinking is?

 

[thomas t]

The only people who want to inflict suffering on others do it because they enjoy inflicting suffering. Assuming he was real, and felt people needed to be punished, he could just end their existence.

I think this isn't true.
Even worldly organizations, such as amnesty international, campaign for punishment.
Actually they are against impunity. https://www.amnesty.org/download/Documents/48000/ior530052009en.pdf

for very clear reasons. Why should those who let people disappear, for instance, (like dropping them into the ocean from a plane) never be punished? Is this a normal action, or just a minor glitch? No, it is murder and some action should be taken to make justice appear.

 

[SigurdReginson]

I think this isn't true.
Even worldly organizations, such as amnesty international, campaign for punishment.
Actually they are against impunity. https://www.amnesty.org/download/Documents/48000/ior530052009en.pdf

for very clear reasons. Why should those who let people disappear, for instance, (like dropping them into the ocean from a plane) never be punished? Is this a normal action, or just a minor glitch? No, it is murder and some action should be taken to make justice appear.

Let's say you had the opportunity to capture one of these people and bring them to justice yourself. Would you take them down to your basement and torture them yourself?

Would you inflict maximum suffering on them for weeks? Months? Years? Would you constantly torment them in new and terrible ways so they'd never get used to the pain?

There's no justice in torture. There's nothing good that comes of it. The only people who would use torture as a form of "punishment" would be a person who derives enjoyment out of it...

If torture is just, why don't we do it to our own criminals in our justice system? The death penalty is even something we are skittish on, because sometimes we end up killing people who are actually innocent...

We value life. We don't enjoy watching things squirm.

 

[stvdv]

So, simply, my questions are 1.) If a friend or family member dies and you know they weren't saved

Assuming indeed, for what can I know about others being saved or not, or if saving is even something that will happen

do you still love them and cherish the memories, or do you try to bury it and let go?

As Divine Love is unconditional, you must speak of human love here, hence conditional and attachment and lots of other emotional stuff

I would not try and bury my attachments, as this never works for me, better I transcend worldly attachment by attaching myself to Divine Love

 

[Twilight Hue]

Heaven for climate, Hell for company.

-Mark Twain-

 

[Brian2]

Hi. I deleted my last post regarding this subject because the details were too raw and personal, and while I appreciated the responses, they digressed from the questions.

So, simply, my questions are 1.) If a friend or family member dies and you know they weren't saved, do you still love them and cherish the memories, or do you try to bury it and let go? After all, once in heaven you'll forget anyway. Also, how do you deal with the thought of them suffering in eternal torment even though you know that they deserve it?

I don't think we can be the judge of who is saved and who is not.
If we find out once we are dead that a friend is not saved then God will wipe away our tears, and I think that would mean amongst other things that we would see the justice in it whatever that may mean for the person who is lost.

 

[pearl]

If a friend or family member dies and you know they weren't saved

The question is moot since no one 'knows', just making a judgment not ours to make.

 

[thomas t]

My last post wasn't about torture.

Let's say you had the opportunity to capture one of these people and bring them to justice yourself. Would you take them down to your basement and torture them yourself?

I wouldn't torture anybody.
I'm not God. I am neutral to whether or not God tortures anyone, and if he did so, I wouldn't say anything against it.
It's just not my field.

What I am against is Universal Reconciliation.
Which is the teaching that all end up in heaven.
I'm highly against this idea!
It's a horrible idea to think current ocean polluters could pollute heaven again.

I am also against annihilationism which is what you suggested in #9, if I get you right. It's the teaching that says that God will turn people of his wrath into nothing. He will boom them out of existence, according to that doctrine.
I am not the one saying that this is the only option that God is allowed to have.
I do not set any rule for God. It's His creation.

In my opinion, it could be like this: hell is the place for anyone not admitted to heaven. Perhaps.
But this alopne might not count as punishment, since this is the place where people end up by default since (or when) they cannot enter heaven.
So there is still some sort of punishment open. No need to cry foul here.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I wouldn't torture anybody.
I'm not God. I am neutral to whether or not God tortures anyone, and if he did so, I wouldn't say anything against it.

ok , up the ante on the question then. What if he told you that in the afterlife, you were to go to hell to become a punisher. Would you object?

 

[amorphous_constellation]

1.) If a friend or family member dies and you know they weren't saved, do you still love them and cherish the memories, or do you try to bury it and let go? After all, once in heaven you'll forget anyway. Also, how do you deal with the thought of them suffering in eternal torment even though you know that they deserve it?

I couldn't visualize either concept (heaven or hell) as perpetual stages. For either concept would end the journey of the soul. When I die, my body just goes into the cold earth , and the soul just finds another bit of matter that it can make warm , though tiring of this, it could even rest in a stone. At least until it disintegrates to join the life circle once more

 

[thomas t]

ok , up the ante on the question then. What if he told you that in the afterlife, you were to go to hell to become a punisher. Would you object?

oh, that's a good question.
The Bible does not mention punishers. So I doubt they exist.

 

[Trailblazer]

As Divine Love is unconditional

Divine Love is unconditional but Divine justice is another matter, Imo.

 

[stvdv]

Divine Love is unconditional but Divine justice is another matter, Imo.

IF Divine Love is unconditional THEN the Divine is not judgmental

IF Divine does not judge THEN what does Divine Justice mean?

 

[Trailblazer]

IF Divine Love is unconditional THEN the Divine is not judgmental

I don't see it that way. I believe that God loves us but that is not related to the fact that God judges us.

IF Divine does not judge THEN what does Divine Justice mean?

I believe that God judges us and that means getting the rewards and punishments that we deserve.

“The Great Being saith: The structure of world stability and order hath been reared upon, and will continue to be sustained by, the twin pillars of reward and punishment…”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 219

 

[stvdv]

I don't see it that way. I believe that God loves us but that is not related to the fact that God judges us.

I believe that God judges us and that means getting the rewards and punishments that we deserve.

“The Great Being saith: The structure of world stability and order hath been reared upon, and will continue to be sustained by, the twin pillars of reward and punishment…”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 219

Okay, I understand your POV

I believe that God does not judge, but that the Law of Karma handles all these things in a Dharmic way
E.g.: if you jump from the Eiffel Tower, you will fall down and not fly
Probably not walk away of the scene, but leaving a bloody mess
No Divine Justice, just gravity and cause and effect

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe that God does not judge, but that the Law of Karma handles all these things in a Dharmic way

Thanks for sharing. That is the difference between Abrahamic and Dharmic religions.
We believe in a God who judges us but we also believe that we will reap what we sow so that is kind of like karma.

In other words, what we do will come back to hit us in the face.

“It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

“The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing the world that he did not exist.”

This is such a useless quote. It is just Christian clap-trap - that is all it is. Something Christians can say in front of each other when facing nonbelievers in order to garner mental high-fives. Otherwise it contains absolutely zero cogency or substance.

If there is a being named "Satan" - he has absolutely no foothold in my life whatsoever. Please do note that I don't give a rat's crap what YOU think regarding this - I simply do not believe such a being even exists, and I see absolutely ZERO evidence of its involvement in ANYTHING - let alone my own life and activities surrounding it.

In your mind, you're probably rummaging in around in a bin marked "Satan made you say this." Well guess what? In my mind, that kind of ridiculous behavior is sorted into a bin marked "Christianity made you say this." Where's the real difference? Not too much, outside of Christianity being far more verifiably real than Satan ever will be.

 

[Trailblazer]

I simply do not believe such a being even exists

Neither do I. This is a belief unique to Christianity. It is a way to shift the blame.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Neither do I. This is a belief unique to Christianity. It is a way to shift the blame.

I, personally, find it extremely annoying that basically all credit or blame for things is doled out to either God or Satan. It's ridiculous. If it's deemed "bad" it's Satan, and if it is deemed "good", it's God. It is amazing that there aren't more people whose eyes are stuck in a state of constantly rolling back into their heads.