Life, organization and entropy

[doppelganger]

this is your fundamental error. Life is in a constant state of decay. Cells die constantly, and its only by taking in more and more energy that this can be held at temporary bay.

Exactly. In addition, the "living system" is an energy distribution system that permeates the entire biosphere, so no one species, organism or cell can or should be considered in a vacuum as to whether it violates the SLT. Rather, the entire interdependent living system takes in enormous amounts of energy and distributes it throughout the biosphere (mainly through the food web), to eventually be released in more "entropic" forms than those in which it was received by the living system.

 

[lunamoth]

Rather, the entire interdependent living system takes in enormous amounts of energy and distributes it throughout the biosphere (mainly through the food web), to eventually be released in more "entropic" forms than those in which it was received by the living system.

Thanks to the glorious miracle of photosynthesis.

 

[Bishadi]

Life is in a constant state of decay

as you share only the simple observance to the system.

i.e.... if in constant decay, then how did we evolve?

What does procreation mean?

:beach:

 

[meogi]

i.e.... if in constant decay, then how did we evolve?

Constant decay, but constant regeneration too. In regenerating (self-replicating) yourself, errors can be made.

What does procreation mean?

The understanding behind the word is reproduction, but I know you know that. Are you honestly suggesting that gestating a fetus doesn't require extra energy intake from the mother?

Might I suggest getting your head out of the quantum physics mindset for a bit. I don't know about you, but I'm part of the 'big' universe, and it doesn't follow a lot of quantum physics little quirks. If you are as sure of this em and entanglement/light stuff, please present it in a paper to the scientific community.

 

[Bishadi]

Constant decay, but constant regeneration too. In regenerating (self-replicating) yourself, errors can be made.

So not heading to chaos, but 'purposed to continue'...... so life kind of intends to 'abuse entropy'...... seems 'naturaly' common sense.

The understanding behind the word is reproduction, but I know you know that. Are you honestly suggesting that gestating a fetus doesn't require extra energy intake from the mother?

Nope.... suggesting to simply watch a single celled egg combine with another, at the microscopic level; and take in energy from its environment and progressively 'grow' then we seeing an 'evolution' right in front of our eyes.

which even as the term, may only be 9 months; that 'life' is abusing an entopic 'direction'

Might I suggest getting your head out of the quantum physics mindset for a bit.

why....? all that is being conveyed is that Darwin's evolution is pretty sound in representing how life evolves within its environment and that at the quantum level, the same rules apply sharing that 'life' has intent based in understanding the properties of energy correctly...

I don't know about you, but I'm part of the 'big' universe, and it doesn't follow a lot of quantum physics little quirks. If you are as sure of this em and entanglement/light stuff, please present it in a paper to the scientific community.

Often wonder if anything would change what was written about of old, had I published and pursued the accedemic career like the so called "normal' community..... but them folk are not governed by integrity but the business of knowledge......

so it seems best to simply share all over da world, and give away material free..

what you don't see is you are reading from an eccentric like no other

the material is all true but rather than being a wheel chair and carry the sick, it seems best to be less than a crutch and give the future children a chance even if they have no idea where it is coming from...

 

[meogi]

So not heading to chaos, but 'purposed to continue'...... so life kind of intends to 'abuse entropy'...... seems 'naturaly' common sense.

No, not purposed; fortunate.

Nope.... suggesting to simply watch a single celled egg combine with another, at the microscopic level; and take in energy from its environment and progressively 'grow' then we seeing an 'evolution' right in front of our eyes.

which even as the term, may only be 9 months; that 'life' is abusing an entopic 'direction'

This just shows you have no idea how DNA works. It's not 'evolving' into a human; it's following directions. Each and every cell has the 'formula' for the entire animal; this is quite convenient in locating where you are in the body (relative to others) and what you should turn into. The Hox genes control the formation of body parts, but the most interesting part is that the genes are ALL (and always) in sequence. Head -> tail type stuff. One after the other. It's not 'evoloving' in the scientific sense.

We also have mechanisms to 'abuse' the 2nd law, but it involves leeching energy from another source. Developing mammals get it from their mothers, insects and reptiles from the energy stored in the egg (insects have little stored energy, but quickly develop the ability to aquire food themselves; yolk is self-explanatory.), plants from photosynthesis. As adults, we have the ability to intake energy from a variety of sources, and must less we die.

Hydrogen, oxygen, and carbon are extremely efficient (take little energy in; say, from the sun) at breaking down to release energy as well as being put together to store it. Life hinges on these three important elements I don't understand why you continue to think this violates the 2nd law.

why....? all that is being conveyed is that Darwin's evolution is pretty sound in representing how life evolves within its environment and that at the quantum level, the same rules apply sharing that 'life' has intent based in understanding the properties of energy correctly...

Utilization does not imply intent.

Often wonder if anything would change what was written about of old, had I published and pursued the accedemic career like the so called "normal' community..... but them folk are not governed by integrity but the business of knowledge......

Business of knowledge? Lack of integrity? What the hell are you talking about?

so it seems best to simply share all over da world, and give away material free..

Because science charges for its information?

the material is all true but rather than being a wheel chair and carry the sick, it seems best to be less than a crutch and give the future children a chance even if they have no idea where it is coming from...

And they surely won't have any idea; at least given the explanations you've given here.

 

[Bishadi]

No, not purposed; fortunate.

So is it fortunate you can breath or is you and your body, doing something about it.

Does and omoeba move? Why does it move?

Why does it procreate? Is working to put food on the table a law of 'fortunate'?

Meogi.... your regressing.

This just shows you have no idea how DNA works.

We be talking about a single cell becoming a life; a human being.

The Hox genes control the formation of body parts, but the most interesting part is that the genes are ALL (and always) in sequence.

kind of like how learning and even evolution works; a sequence of events affecting the interactions of mass.....

even how time has something to do with it; which in contrast to inanimate mass, which does not share an increase of mass to continue its life....

hm that living thing sure breaking all the rules

We also have mechanisms to 'abuse' the 2nd law, but it involves leeching energy from another source.

So you see the 'mechanism' that is called life?

Developing mammals get it from their mothers, insects and reptiles from the energy stored in the egg (insects have little stored energy, but quickly develop the ability to aquire food themselves; yolk is self-explanatory.), plants from photosynthesis. As adults, we have the ability to intake energy from a variety of sources, and must less we die.

Kind of cool; as I never saw and experiement to prove entropy using a living structure; good to see you at least offer us examples of how mass can 'abuse entropy'.

Hydrogen, oxygen, and carbon are extremely efficient (take little energy in; say, from the sun) at breaking down to release energy as well as being put together to store it. Life hinges on these three important elements I don't understand why you continue to think this violates the 2nd law.

ever notice how a chain reaction works; get her going and she don't stop until the fuel runs out.....

kind of like a life of its own

Utilization does not imply intent.

are you talking to me?

then life (you) imposed energy by intent.

Does an omeoba move? Then what for?

What is the intent of life?

 

[meogi]

So is it fortunate you can breath or is you and your body, doing something about it.

Does and omoeba move? Why does it move?

Why does it procreate? Is working to put food on the table a law of 'fortunate'?

Meogi.... your regressing.

No, you're regressing into a discussion about life's purpose. This is about entropy and life. You're saying it's 'abusing' entropy, when it seems perfectly within the bounds of the 2nd law.

We be talking about a single cell becoming a life; a human being.

Yes, and you have no understanding of the process behind it. At least the terminology you've used has given me that impression.

kind of like how learning and even evolution works; a sequence of events affecting the interactions of mass.....

even how time has something to do with it; which in contrast to inanimate mass, which does not share an increase of mass to continue its life....

hm that living thing sure breaking all the rules

How is it breaking the rules when there is a large influx of outside energy into the system?

So you see the 'mechanism' that is called life?

No, I see life using a mechanism(s) that can utilize/store energy. The research has already been extensive; perhaps you could check the math yourself.

Kind of cool; as I never saw and experiement to prove entropy using a living structure; good to see you at least offer us examples of how mass can 'abuse entropy'.

It's not a hard concept to understand. There is a large amount of outside energy that life utilizes to temporarily overcome the 2nd law; but it reverts back to being true (the whole system is losing more energy than it's taking in) when you broaden the system to oustide our solar system.

You can't just isolate a single lifeform, put it in its own system, and say, "Hah! This is 'abusing' entropy; it's gaining energy in its system!" Because there is ALWAYS an outside form of energy providing assistance.

ever notice how a chain reaction works; get her going and she don't stop until the fuel runs out.....

kind of like a life of its own

And this may be where we differ in our understandings of order. Chemical reactions when chemicals, temperature and pressure are right, are not creating 'order' so much as 'following chemistry.' Life is different; it utilizes these chemical properties to store information and energy for future use. This is order from chaos; not just a chemical law.

are you talking to me?

then life (you) imposed energy by intent.

Does an omeoba move? Then what for?

What is the intent of life?

I'm saying life 'intends' to use the energy as much as it just 'utilizes' it. There is no purpose to life using the process(es), other than it is the only process that works... we MUST use it, less we wouldn't be having this debate. And again, this isn't about the 'purpose' of life; it's about life being able to overcome the 2nd law, if at least only for a little while.

 

[Bishadi]

No, you're regressing into a discussion about life's purpose. This is about entropy and life. You're saying it's 'abusing' entropy, when it seems perfectly within the bounds of the 2nd law.

Is like saying life will always end; but if that be the case then how did life evolve?

Yes, and you have no understanding of the process behind it. At least the terminology you've used has given me that impression.

Pointing fingers?

Did that single cell (a microscopic life) develop over time into a person?

How is it breaking the rules when there is a large influx of outside energy into the system?

Because in biological systems that environment is not addressed. So to observe a spark of life within an environment; it is pretty basic common sense to realize the life has and intent to continue... which shares that unit of life is abusing what entropy suggests is one directional.

No, I see life using a mechanism(s) that can utilize/store energy.

So like a person making a choice of living or dying, you do not see how the life has an intent of itself to continue? That it is following the same existence as a rock?

And this may be where we differ in our understandings of order. Chemical reactions when chemicals, temperature and pressure are right, are not creating 'order' so much as 'following chemistry.' Life is different; it utilizes these chemical properties to store information and energy for future use. This is order from chaos; not just a chemical law.

Chemistry is for heat and all heat is is resonant energy upon mass. Chemisty cannot perform a living system as the 'intent' or progression of life cannot be defined in chemistry. Meaning; chemistry to molecular science is lke an abacus to a mathematician.

I'm saying life 'intends' to use the energy as much as it just 'utilizes' it. There is no purpose to life using the process(es),

Then why do they procreate (continue beyond death) as well how would a chaotic end have an evolutionary progression based on the relation to the environment?

If that life has not intent to continue based in it per se 'chemical reactions' then whay does it move?

the issue is not whether the idea being presented in true or not; it is that no matter what is shared to prove life abuses entropy .... you just will not address real observances.....

Did life begin with basic elements combining to continue life?

Is life still upon this earth?

Then life done abused the hell out of chaos.....

 

[meogi]

Is like saying life will always end; but if that be the case then how did life evolve?

Life does always end. Sadly, we can't fight entropy for long. Luckily, life can reproduce (make copies of itself); in this copying process, errors can be made. Evolution.

Pointing fingers?

Did that single cell (a microscopic life) develop over time into a person?

Yes, but that single cell contained the information on how to build a human. The process of reading DNA and constructing the body is not 'evolution' as you're stating it is.

Because in biological systems that environment is not addressed. So to observe a spark of life within an environment; it is pretty basic common sense to realize the life has and intent to continue... which shares that unit of life is abusing what entropy suggests is one directional.

Do you live in an enclosed environment? No outside anything. How long do you think life survives? Quit considering biological entities enclosed and realize that life only works because there is a greater 'system' beyond itself.

So like a person making a choice of living or dying, you do not see how the life has an intent of itself to continue? That it is following the same existence as a rock?

If you can't distinguish between intent and mere utilization, I can't help you. Well, maybe. Consider it as intent vs. necessity.

Chemistry is for heat and all heat is is resonant energy upon mass. Chemisty cannot perform a living system as the 'intent' or progression of life cannot be defined in chemistry. Meaning; chemistry to molecular science is lke an abacus to a mathematician.

I'm not sure what you're talking about, but I was talking about how a chemical reaction (oxidization) doesn't fit the definition of 'life.'

Then why do they procreate (continue beyond death) as well how would a chaotic end have an evolutionary progression based on the relation to the environment?

If that life has not intent to continue based in it per se 'chemical reactions' then whay does it move?

the issue is not whether the idea being presented in true or not; it is that no matter what is shared to prove life abuses entropy .... you just will not address real observances.....

You are not presenting real observances... you're presenting a confused understanding of the 2nd law of thermodynamics and life.

Did life begin with basic elements combining to continue life?

Perhaps; I have no idea what the first self-replicating 'lifeform' was or how it came to be.

Is life still upon this earth?

You could say it's infected earth.

Then life done abused the hell out of chaos.....

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think the sun has been providing enough energy for life since, well, life began.

 

[logician]

Thanks to the glorious miracle of photosynthesis.

Processes with explanations logically aren't termed miracles, otherwise, practically every process could be termed a miracle.

 

[Bishadi]

Life does always end.

But then is a copy of itself, their life 'continuing'?

Simply answer; yes or no...

Sadly, we can't fight entropy for long. Luckily, life can reproduce (make copies of itself); in this copying process, errors can be made. Evolution.

So basically since the beginning of time; life still here........... same life (light) with lots of evolution.......... life just kicked the butt out of entropy!

that is reality....

Do you live in an enclosed environment? No outside anything. How long do you think life survives? Quit considering biological entities enclosed and realize that life only works because there is a greater 'system' beyond itself.

That is my line to you; quit the little system observance and take a peak at a little more common sense, when observing your system.....

If life is still here; then life is winning

If you can't distinguish between intent and mere utilization, I can't help you.

You've been no help since the beginning and if you cannot comprehend somehting as basic as life has a purpose (to continue) Well, maybe.... you are too proud to be honest.

You are not presenting real observances... you're presenting a confused understanding of the 2nd law of thermodynamics and life.

this is where your integrity is ruining your credibility.... if the system is about a life...

then if that life procreates, then it is still alive.... that is what you are having a problem with....

Originally Posted by Bishadi
Did life begin with basic elements combining to continue life?

Perhaps; I have no idea what the first self-replicating 'lifeform' was or how it came to be.

Then how you could possibly be debating 'self-oranization' or even entropy.... if you have NO IDEA....

I asked in life began from basic elements; common sense shares.... well yea....

and why do folk like you have 'no idea' is because the mechanism that shares how this actually occurs is not possible in the current scientific regimes... (current Paradigm)

this is the whole point of the argument in these threads...

that mechanism (understanding) is the sought knowledge the whole globe is awaiting

 

[meogi]

But then is a copy of itself, their life 'continuing'?

Simply answer; yes or no...

No. It is a new lifeform; it just happens to have exactly or roughly (evolution) the same genetic code.

So basically since the beginning of time; life still here........... same life (light) with lots of evolution.......... life just kicked the butt out of entropy!

that is reality....

Not the same life; that is reality.

That is my line to you; quit the little system observance and take a peak at a little more common sense, when observing your system.....

If life is still here; then life is winning

Of course life is winning, but life only 'wins' for a short amount of time. All life dies. Offspring/copies are not the same lifeform.

You've been no help since the beginning and if you cannot comprehend somehting as basic as life has a purpose (to continue) Well, maybe.... you are too proud to be honest.

Oh, I can comprehend it just fine; I just don't see validity behind it. I see millions of billions of combinations occuring during early earth. All it took was one combination to make the right 'programming' to create a copy of itself. From there it's been a wild ride of evolution; an obscenely large number of different lifeforms, all spawned from the great first self-replicator. That's why I don't see it as 'purpose' to continue, but rather just the only thing life could actually do.

Now quit addressing 'purpose' and address why exactly biological systems cannot have external energy provided in order to counteract the 2nd law of thermodynamics, at least for a short while.

this is where your integrity is ruining your credibility.... if the system is about a life...

then if that life procreates, then it is still alive.... that is what you are having a problem with....

I doubt my integrity would every ruin my credibility. Our problem is from a fundamental difference in our perception of life. You seem to feel that all life is the same organism and shares the same 'system' collectively (even if this were the case, the sun is still outside THAT system and is providing energy; along with the energy provided by the inner earth). I feel that all life is a separate entity in it's own system, fighting it's own fight against entropy, and eventually losing. Offspring, even if copies, do not share the same existence. They share the same 'programming' and as such are going to do similar things (such as continue to procreate).

Then how you could possibly be debating 'self-oranization' or even entropy.... if you have NO IDEA....

Forgive me for using a common phrase that suggests I don't know exactly what the reason behind something is. It doesn't mean I have 'no idea,' sigh.

I asked in life began from basic elements; common sense shares.... well yea....

We don't know how life began. But yes, it was likely a random combination of amino acids and other molecules (not basic elements). Some lucky first RNA strand or some such could be the first self-replicator; like I said, I have no idea (which idea is correct).

and why do folk like you have 'no idea' is because the mechanism that shares how this actually occurs is not possible in the current scientific regimes... (current Paradigm)

Except it is possible in the current 'regime.' You keep ignoring outside energy sources.

this is the whole point of the argument in these threads...

that mechanism (understanding) is the sought knowledge the whole globe is awaiting

What paradigm does life 'fit' with then? What exactly is the math saying about reality and life and existence? Why is life 'abusing' entropy a problem?

 

[Bishadi]

I had asked if a reproducing life (your parents for example) reproduce to continue life and you said

No. It is a new lifeform; it just happens to have exactly or roughly (evolution) the same genetic code.


Not the same life; that is reality.

You may look like them, sound like them, and definitely carry and exhibit the evolution of the whole line of all your previous generations; but to you, you ain't got nothing to do with them.

No wonder you be dishonoring them; you know them not, within you, alive and in the flesh.....

that is how the prophetic scripture suggesting 'and the fathers will be raised to the flesh'................. comprehending what I just shared is how that occurs..

Now quit addressing 'purpose' and address why exactly biological systems cannot have external energy provided in order to counteract the 2nd law of thermodynamics, at least for a short while.

I never said that; as entanglement is where that 'extra' potential come from; the entangled energy within the environment. I said chemistry cannot answer that in any way shape or form.

And it is because of the environment that life 'abuses' entropy.... it 'can' take from the environment where a rock, shares the entropy; being inanimate.... that rock not by its on intent, taking from the environment (food) by instinct (purpose) or by choice (us).....

What paradigm does life 'fit' with then?

The truth.

What exactly is the math saying about reality and life and existence? Why is life 'abusing' entropy a problem?

Because people like you simply cannot fathom the current paradigm as being incorrect. And if Einstein or the reast of the world likes Newtons laws as forever infalliable; then so do you.

Simply address energy as 'light' (em upon mass) and maintain the entanglement of the environment and life is real easy to define.... but step one is integrity and that intent to learn rather than maintain a belief because every one else does...

that last line sounded almost like me talking to a religious nut.... basically be honest, first and then look at the belief....

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

No wonder you be dishonoring them; you know them not, within you, alive and in the flesh.....

<this guy gives trolls a bad name>

 

[meogi]

You may look like them, sound like them, and definitely carry and exhibit the evolution of the whole line of all your previous generations; but to you, you ain't got nothing to do with them.

No wonder you be dishonoring them; you know them not, within you, alive and in the flesh.....

Oh, they quite agree with me. You are quite wrong in your understanding. And thanks for assuming things about me.

I have to head to work, I'll answer the others later.

 

[Bishadi]

<this guy gives trolls a bad name>

damn I enjoy it when the fools chime in....... it is why some call the bringing of good news the dajal......... because he will ruin the religions forever!

put it this way; there is a religion out there, that thinks their prophet (who could not read) is supposed to be the last one, but that dude did not complete the works of the '2nd creation'... in which knowledge will begin within comprehending life from 'atoms and energy' versus adam and eve..............

It's a light thing

 

[Bishadi]

Oh, they quite agree with me. You are quite wrong in your understanding. And thanks for assuming things about me.

I have to head to work, I'll answer the others later.

no need... you may wish to read,

before sharing a need,

to respond to me

he he

 

[meogi]

You may look like them, sound like them, and definitely carry and exhibit the evolution of the whole line of all your previous generations; but to you, you ain't got nothing to do with them.

No, I have everything to do with them; I am them combined into a new lifeform. I am not them. I may be entangled with them, but it does not appear that their actions have any affect on my actions. Or all life for that matter (every living thing must be entangled). What does this entanglement suggest?

that is how the prophetic scripture suggesting 'and the fathers will be raised to the flesh'................. comprehending what I just shared is how that occurs..

So that would suggest I also have my grandparents, great-grandparents to ape common-ancestor to therapsids to fish and single-celled organisms living withing 'my flesh?'

I never said that; as entanglement is where that 'extra' potential come from; the entangled energy within the environment.

And it is because of the environment that life 'abuses' entropy.... it 'can' take from the environment where a rock, shares the entropy; being inanimate.... that rock not by its on intent, taking from the environment (food) by instinct (purpose) or by choice (us).....

Regardless of the intent or purpose of our ability to aquire energy from the environment, life does aquire energy from outside sources; how does this violate the 2nd law?

The truth.

Wonderful! How do I figure out the truth?

Because people like you simply cannot fathom the current paradigm as being incorrect. And if Einstein or the reast of the world likes Newtons laws as forever infalliable; then so do you.

I can fathom it; but the problem lies with how well the current paradigm explains pretty much everything we see. Suggesting a radical change to the entire paradigm requires a lot of evidence. I am researching this electric universe theory stuff, but I assume if it's anything like plasma theory, it has some holes in it as well. In science, nothing is certain; what makes you so sure?

Simply address energy as 'light' (em upon mass) and maintain the entanglement of the environment and life is real easy to define.... but step one is integrity and that intent to learn rather than maintain a belief because every one else does...

I didn't know we had a problem defining life...

 

[Bishadi]

No, I have everything to do with them; I am them combined into a new lifeform. I am not them. I may be entangled with them, but it does not appear that their actions have any affect on my actions. Or all life for that matter (every living thing must be entangled). What does this entanglement suggest?

entanglement is that physical form called gravity; take a peak at Casimir

Casimir-Polder potentials as entanglement probe


Authors: Markus.A.Cirone, Giuseppe Compagno, G. Massimo Palma, Roberto Passante, Francesco S. Persico

(Submitted on 5 Jul 2004 (v1), last revised 17 Apr 2007 (this version, v3))

Abstract: We have considered the interaction of a pair of spatially separated two-level atoms with the electromagnetic field in its vacuum state and we have analyzed the amount of entanglement induced between the two atoms by the non local field fluctuations. This has allowed us to characterize the quantum nature of the non local correlations of the electromagnetic field vacuum state as well as to link the induced quantum entanglement with Casimir-Polder potentials.​

In which the potential can increase based on interrelations/exchanges.

So that would suggest I also have my grandparents, great-grandparents to ape common-ancestor to therapsids to fish and single-celled organisms living withing 'my flesh?'

and literally true....... all of them and maybe count the chain, maybe find out how many generations. Maybe someone could pursue that as a course work... :help:

But in a literal sense, really think about it; your dna, is their's (parents) and all their lineage, is your; since the beginning of time, and if ever a break was involved; you wouldn't be here barking at me

Honor them with thanx; and say "I made it, thank you"

Regardless of the intent or purpose of our ability to aquire energy from the environment, life does aquire energy from outside sources; how does this violate the 2nd law?

Because of that very intent. i.e.... draw a circle in the snow; place a jacket and 2 people in the circle; who will freeze first.

That intent is not in any calculations which ruins most any system. Then to understand that that perspective is not based in just you and my 'intent' but by a mechanics behind how energy associates within it environment... (a property of energy no where in the calculations 'entanglement')

now do you see the issue?

Wonderful! How do I figure out the truth?

been trying to learn how to teach it.

I can fathom it; but the problem lies with how well the current paradigm explains pretty much everything we see.

No it doesn't. much of the current math are patches for different branches... i.e.... chemistry versus Relativity.

Suggesting a radical change to the entire paradigm requires a lot of evidence.

Been a lifetimes job.

I am researching this electric universe theory stuff, but I assume if it's anything like plasma theory, it has some holes in it as well. In science, nothing is certain; what makes you so sure?

Already been there, done that.....

I didn't know we had a problem defining life...

huge problems all throughout the whole chemistry of it....

simple items such as understanding what holds the plug of the nuclear pores, to the perpendicular planes of the catalyst that reads dna/rna chains...most every phenomenon missing, has been tapped on and i have material for.

How memories work to what ever-lasting life is; it all based from comprehending how light is the energy between all mass.

this is from over 2 and half decades of work with no a person in the world telling me what I can and cannot do, read, and study; it is all simply to understand and share.

how stupid can a person be to simply want to do it?