Life, organization and entropy

[Bishadi]

Self-Organisation

In the last chapter we understood that biological diversity and complexity does not contradict the Second Law of thermodynamics because living organisms are structures that maintain themselves far from equilibrium: They use an inflow of energy to create "order from disorder" within themselves, but dissipate heat and other waste products to increase the net entropy and disorder of the universe. The remarkable self-organisation exhibited by living organisms is also illustrated in simpler non-living systems such as that of Benard cells and the BZ cemical reaction. In this chapter we will look at further examples of self-organisation, that is, macroscopic order or pattern formation in a complex system.

http://staff.science.nus.edu.sg/~parwani/c1/node2.html

for some to observe current paradigm

But if a living form dies and leaves a life (new generation) in their wake; then it seems 'life abuses entropy'....

the observance is that life is alive; we all know that.....

but today's math has a few issue with defining life......

who is intent on identifying what needs to be done?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

the observance is that life is alive; ...

:clap excellent :clap

Now show us how life 'abuses' entropy.

 

[painted wolf]

according to this formula it doesn't.

Gibbs free energy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

wa:do

 

[Bishadi]

according to this formula it doesn't.

Gibbs free energy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

wa:do

sharing that entropy is side stepped.

that energy can exchange across a medium without loosing its properties.

Originally published as​

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Biophys J. BioFAST on October 12, 2007.
doi:10.1529/biophysj.107.111674​

Biophysical Journal​

​

​

94:1483-1496 (2008)
© 2008 The Biophysical Society
​

Investigating Interactions Mediated by the
Presynaptic Protein Bassoon in Living Cells by
Foerster's Resonance Energy Transfer and
Fluorescence Lifetime Imaging Microscopy
​

Mini Jose​

​

*, Deepak K. Nair *, Wilko D. Altrock *, Thomas Dresbach , Eckart D. Gundelfinger *​

and Werner Zuschratter​

​

*
​

*​

​

Leibniz Institute for Neurobiology, Magdeburg, Germany; and Institute for Anatomy and Cell
Biology, University of Heidelberg, Heidelberg, Germany​

suggesting

Neuronal synapses are highly specialized structures for communication between nerve cells.
Knowledge about their molecular organization and dynamics is still incomplete. The large
multidomain protein Bassoon plays a major role in scaffolding and organizing the cytomatrix at the active zone of neurotransmitter release in presynaptic boutons. Utilizing immunofluorescence techniques, we show that Bassoon is essential for corecruitment of its synaptic interaction partners, Cterminal binding protein 1/brefeldin A-dependent ADP-ribosylation substrate and CAZ-associated structural protein, into protein complexes upon heterologous expression in COS-7 cells. A combination of Foerster's resonance energy transfer and fluorescence lifetime imaging microscopy in the time domain was adopted to investigate the potential for the association of these proteins in the same complexes. A direct physical association between Bassoon and CtBP1 could also be observed at synapses of living hippocampal neurons. Simultaneous analysis of fluorescence decays of the donor and the acceptor probes along with their decay-associated spectra allowed a clear discrimination of energy transfer.
​

But that is current experimental evidence....

meaning some may not wish to read this; as it may ruin everything they know as believed fact.​

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

sharing that entropy is side stepped.

Rubbish.

 

[Bishadi]

Rubbish.

try even the basics

Technically, the Gibbs free energy is the maximum amount of non-expansion work which can be extracted from a closed system or this maximum can be attained only in a completely reversible process. When a system changes from a well-defined initial state to a well-defined final state, the Gibbs free energy ΔG equals the work exchanged by the system with its surroundings, less the work of the pressure forces, during a reversible transformation of the system from the same initial state to the same final state

oops

Reversible process (thermodynamics), a process or cycle such that the net change at each stage in the combined entropy of the system and its surroundings is zero

abusing entropy.... like an uneducated person

 

[Hexaqua_David(II)]

What is this debate even about? I've studied thermodynamics and I'm not entirely sure what the argument is... Why does live abuse entropy? =S

 

[Bishadi]

What is this debate even about? I've studied thermodynamics and I'm not entirely sure what the argument is... Why does live abuse entropy? =S

still alive

such that reproduction shares the life continued .... abusing the heck out of entropy as that is what life does, naturally....

and every time an increase to the scope is made, another can share the failure to chaos as the rule...

i.e... the sun,.............. as that release entangles more mass

 

[meogi]

still alive

such that reproduction shares the life continued .... abusing the heck out of entropy as that is what life does, naturally....

It would appear to be resisting rather than abusing... viva la resistance!

What solution to this 'entropy problem' do you pose?

 

[Bishadi]

It would appear to be resisting rather than abusing... viva la resistance!

What solution to this 'entropy problem' do you pose?

nobody changed what Ptolemy wrote either; we evolved

same difference; grow

Light is the energy upon mass; that non local is entanglement

pay attention to the environment (of the system observed...i.e... the entangled association of the presented parameters) and reduce the uncertainties.

the point is, the change is bigger than a line item formula, that was the easy part

it is in the assessment of data and how to observe the occurances (causality) of the system.. ie...note how the ATP mess was exposed in the Darwin thread as well we all know evolution is a real pattern so then there is much to do on finishing the remaining chapters for the next generation.

ie.... self organization .... take the suggestion of the 'light' ............make an experiment by being as critical as possible, stay unbiased and check it as thoroughly as possible ......... use the same math as used to identify the wavelength for rubidium in the Bose Einstein Condensate; from there build lipids and then the bilayers in your experiment

keys to remember; from 'cold' no additions of 'state' can occur unless energy is exposed to the mass; be pure with measuring that progression and before you reach 2 thresholds you will have a set of math in front of you that is what you are asking me for.

 

[painted wolf]

allowed a clear discrimination of energy transfer

I'm guessing you've never actually read a scientific paper before.
This means that the scientists were able to see and record the transfer of energy between the two cells.

let's read the whole sentence without cherry picking and hype.

[SIZE=-1]Simultaneous analysis of fluorescence decays of the donor and the acceptor probes along with their decay-associated spectra allowed a clear discrimination of energy transfer.[/SIZE]

So the donor and acceptor were simultaneously shown to transfer energy from one to the other.
This was done using Fluoresence decay... something I've gotten to use in the lab myself. Its a very interesting tecnique and looks utterly beautiful to see.

Perhaps you should try again?

The Gibbs free energy total differential in terms of its natural variables may be derived via Legendre transforms of the internal energy. For a system undergoing an internally reversible process that is allowed to exchange matter, heat and work with its surroundings, the differential of the internal energy is given from the first law of thermodynamics as

You really should read whole articles rather than just the intro's.

Hence, out of this general natural tendency, a quantitative measure as to how near or far a potential reaction is from this minimum is when the calculated energetics of the process indicate that the change in Gibbs free energy ΔG is negative. Essentially, this means that such a reaction will be favored and will release energy. The energy released equals the maximum amount of work that can be performed as a result of the chemical reaction. Conversely, if conditions indicated a positive ΔG, then energy--in the form of work--would have to be added to the reacting system to make the reaction go.

The standard Gibbs free energy of formation of a compound is the change of Gibbs free energy that accompanies the formation of 1 mole of that substance from its component elements, at their standard states (the most stable form of the element at 25 degrees Celsius and 100 kilopascals). Its symbol is ΔGfO.
All elements in their standard states (oxygen gas, graphite, etc.) have 0 standard Gibbs free energy change of formation, as there is no change involved.

you may also find this useful.

In recent years, the thermodynamic interpretation of evolution in relation to entropy has begun to utilize the concept of the Gibbs free energy, rather than entropy. This is because biological processes on earth take place at roughly constant temperature and pressure, a situation in which the Gibbs free energy is an especially useful way to express the second law of thermodynamics. The Gibbs free energy is given by:

The minimization of the Gibbs free energy is a form of the principle of minimum energy, which follows from the entropy maximization principle for closed systems. Moreover, the Gibbs free energy equation, in modified form, can be utilized for open systems when chemical potential terms are included in the energy balance equation. In a popular 1982 textbook Principles of Biochemistry by noted American biochemist Albert Lehninger, it is argued that the order produced within cells as they grow and divide is more than compensated for by the disorder they create in their surroundings in the course of growth and division. In short, according to Lehninger, "living organisms preserve their internal order by taking from their surroundings free energy, in the form of nutrients or sunlight, and returning to their surroundings an equal amount of energy as heat and entropy."[7]
Similarly, according to the chemist John Avery, from his recent 2003 book Information Theory and Evolution, we find a presentation in which the phenomenon of life, including its origin and evolution, as well as human cultural evolution, has its basis in the background of thermodynamics, statistical mechanics, and information theory. The (apparent) paradox between the second law of thermodynamics and the high degree of order and complexity produced by living systems, according to Avery, has its resolution "in the information content of the Gibbs free energy that enters the biosphere from outside sources."[8]

from: Entropy and life - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Perhaps you want to try again on this one as well?

wa:do

 

[Bishadi]

I'm guessing you've never actually read a scientific paper before.

As well you wrote what i said

This means that the scientists were able to see and record the transfer of energy between the two cells.

And it was not by protons but the resonance energy from structure to structure.

let's read the whole sentence without cherry picking and hype.


So the donor and acceptor were simultaneously shown to transfer energy from one to the other.
This was done using Fluoresence decay...

Nice of you to support reality even if unknowingly

maim; all you've done is share that energy can convey to a from b with no loss.... in the technical reality the second law says you can't do that..... and why the patchwork of theorem....(Gibbs)

 

[painted wolf]

energy was transfered from one cell to another... Naturally there was loss. It was the loss of energy that was recorded. (the rest of the energy entered the cell)
The second law was obeyed.

I never said it was protons btw.

but nice try.

The Gibbs stuff was to show you that once again you misrepresented the information.

wa:do

 

[Bishadi]

energy was transfered from one cell to another... Naturally there was loss. It was the loss of energy that was recorded.

Show that recorded loss as you are now blatantly lying as well if you cannot comprehend what Gibbs free energy is or the math in relation to thermodynamics than like each thread you have jumped into; you reall have no clue what you are talking about

I never said it was protons btw.

Our whole debate was on you believing energy exchanged as chemically shared and that has nothing to do with resonance; you said it was by charges exchanging as in chemistry and now where in chemistry can they share a potential exchange from one cell to another in resonance

that is the whole argument of why chemists cannot comprehend how energy works are the atomic level

 

[painted wolf]

for the Fluoresence decay to work some energy must be given off to record.
No system is perfect.

Gibbs is used to calculate the optimal energy for a system... the actual energy from the system is compared and the difference is the lost energy due to entropy.

wa:do

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Perhaps you want to try again on this one as well?

He is apparently unaware that he's making a fool of himself.

 

[Bishadi]

for the Fluoresence decay to work some energy must be given off to record.
No system is perfect.

Now you see the problem.

That a system can increase its potential rather than a constant decay. this is exactly what life does.

That reality is where our problem is; understanding that energy (light) will progress in the correct environment.

Gibbs is used to calculate the optimal energy for a system... the actual energy from the system is compared and the difference is the lost energy due to entropy.

That is not my argument. The issue supporting the above.

The reason these use this form (Gibbs) is because they needed a venue to address the change (variables); i.e..based on the environment (pressure/heat) ...

do you guys know what the math means or do you just read everybody elses arguments

 

[painted wolf]

That a system can increase its potential rather than a constant decay. this is exactly what life does.

this is your fundamental error. Life is in a constant state of decay. Cells die constantly, and its only by taking in more and more energy that this can be held at temporary bay.
However in becoming more complex, life becomes more entropic. More and more cells die, more and more energy is lost to the environment and so on.

Right now millions of cells in your body are dead or dying. Even in the womb your cells die. However you constantly bringing in energy to replenish the energy you loose. Thus the net organism survives... for a while.
Eventually entropy wins.. you die. Your chemical energy is then used by another.

wa:do

 

[Bishadi]

this is your fundamental error. Life is in a constant state of decay. Cells die constantly, and its only by taking in more and more energy that this can be held at temporary bay.

and how does mass do that?

However you constantly bringing in energy to replenish the energy you loose. Thus the net organism survives... for a while.

and if it reproduces does that life continue?

Eventually entropy wins.. you die.

Nope, have children... i win, me and my whole lineage of fathers is moving forward because I made a good choice. with comprehension!

Your chemical energy is then used by another.

Same with the knowledge conveyed; being used by another; many all over the world.

This life can can build many things that will live beyond my phyical life.

sorry darling, no entropy for the life of this one

that is the knowledge you fail to comprehend

life can continue; hence how evolution works and why we be here.

as well each of consciousness can impose (create) life based on choice.

Chaos is like Bush politics; based on the ignorance of the complacent!

 

[Hexaqua_David(II)]

and how does mass do that?

and if it reproduces does that life continue?

Nope, have children... i win, me and my whole lineage of fathers is moving forward because I made a good choice. with comprehension!

Same with the knowledge conveyed; being used by another; many all over the world.

This life can can build many things that will live beyond my phyical life.

sorry darling, no entropy for the life of this one

that is the knowledge you fail to comprehend

life can continue; hence how evolution works and why we be here.

as well each of consciousness can impose (create) life based on choice.

Chaos is like Bush politics; based on the ignorance of the complacent!

Oh my gosh. :cover: