"Life begins at conception" vs. "male and female he created them"

[fantome profane]

That's a great question which I have asked myself. If the answer were "yes", that would explain some people feeling they were in the wrong body. People are born with all sorts of mental and physical handicaps that stretch the soul. But this particular situation where God actually sends a spirit to an opposite gender body strikes me as inconsistent with how I perceive that God operates in regard to gender. So my answer is "I don't think so."

But God would actually send a spirit into a intersex body?

 

[Acim]

A question for those of you who both believe in "ensoulment" at conception and oppose the idea of transexuality:

How do you reconcile this with the fact that, in the womb, we all start out female?

Instead of "male and female he created them", shouldn't it be "female and female he created them (... and changed some to male later)"?

If life begins at conception, then every male is transgender.

Thoughts?

I don't think the inquiry applies to me, but am honestly not sure. Also not sure who it does apply to. I think it is meant to ask those who oppose transgenderism if they can respect the idea that we all start off, biologically, as females. Is that right?

In case that isn't right, I do wonder what 'life at conception' has to do with a) gender and b) biological data?

Also since I just started another thread with similar title (using the Genesis 1 verse) and said I understand that to mean we are both genders (all of us, without exception), then I'm thinking this is meant for those who understand that verse to mean we are either-or, and all other people who think we are either-or (and don't need scripture to make that sort of determination for their understandings).

In some ways, the message in OP seems to counter transgenderism, because it is saying we start out as female (science shows this) and then we may become male later. Though not necessarily claiming science suggests that, I believe it is (strongly) implied, so if a person who is born into that male body is convinced they are a female trapped in a male body (or obviously it could be the other way female to male), then this is essentially saying the biology says otherwise, whether you personally accept that (for your own self) or not. I really don't believe OP is going out on that limb, but do think the science sort of does. Which is why psychology needs to be factored in, and why the biological implications are not the end all be all for such a consideration.

But for me, spiritually and psychologically, I think it works better to assume we are all both, and that each individual is free to self identify however they choose, and really at any time they choose. Practically, there are obvious issues with that, but not really anything that's been a significant issue nor dealing with our survivability.

Again, how all this relates to life begins at conception is not clear to me, but I'm still thinking that has to do with idea that we are (believed to be) either-or in terms of gender, and that somehow the biology trumps all other considerations, namely psychological and spiritual.

 

[Scott C.]

But God would actually send a spirit into a intersex body?

Apparently, yes, but my understanding is that this is very rare.

 

[arthra]

My thought is that what ever gender or physical characteristics are associated with the body and they are of course many... including various biological characteristics... the first and most important is the breath of life that is breathed within us:

It is said in the Old Testament, "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 89)

Every soul may seek everlasting life through the breath of the Merciful. Life in this mortal world will quickly come to an end, and this earthly glory, wealth, comfort and happiness will soon vanish and be no more. Summon ye the people to God and call the souls to the manners and conduct of the Supreme Concourse.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - , p. 216)

Through the faculty of meditation man attains to eternal life; through it he receives the breath of the Holy Spirit -- the bestowal of the Spirit is given in reflection and meditation.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 176)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You really think that we start as female and not an non sexual being with an genitalia that resemble that of a female?

If you think that it's better to say that we start out neither male nor female and then develop into one or the other, that's probably a valid way to look at it... though it doesn't really make the problem I pointed out go away.

The above apply to you too.. also, is only genitalia that determine if a being is female or male to you? how about the internal reproductive organs?

According to what I've read, internal reproductive organs are differentiated earlier than the external organs, but there's still quite a span of time from conception until the structures that will become the internal reproductive organs are identifiably "male" or "female".

And a blastocyst certainly doesn't have internal reproductive organs at all.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

My thought is that what ever gender or physical characteristics are associated with the body and they are of course many... including various biological characteristics... the first and most important is the breath of life that is breathed within us:

It is said in the Old Testament, "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 89)

Every soul may seek everlasting life through the breath of the Merciful. Life in this mortal world will quickly come to an end, and this earthly glory, wealth, comfort and happiness will soon vanish and be no more. Summon ye the people to God and call the souls to the manners and conduct of the Supreme Concourse.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - , p. 216)

Through the faculty of meditation man attains to eternal life; through it he receives the breath of the Holy Spirit -- the bestowal of the Spirit is given in reflection and meditation.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 176)

I don't see how your post is relevant at all.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

A question for those of you who both believe in "ensoulment" at conception and oppose the idea of transexuality:

How do you reconcile this with the fact that, in the womb, we all start out female?

Instead of "male and female he created them", shouldn't it be "female and female he created them (... and changed some to male later)"?

If life begins at conception, then every male is transgender.

Thoughts?

If the sperm carries an X chromosome, it will combine with the egg's X chromosome to form a female zygote. If the sperm carries a Y chromosome, it will result in a male zygote.

Gender is the reproduction strategy for our species. But transgenders cannot reproduce even though they often/usually have the drive to do so. I think not facing this fact is what causes many to have emotional problems with the transition. The fact is we don't really know much about the impact of such transitions on our psyche--but political correctness prohibits more than a surface examination of such a drastic blow. We merely take the patients word for it no matter how emotionally disturbed they might be, even if they're children. But as long as it gets paid for, and they vote Democrat.....

And as for the installation of the soul, that doesn't seem to occur until about the age of two when we only begin to start developing our full self-awareness.

 

[Tumah]

A question for those of you who both believe in "ensoulment" at conception and oppose the idea of transexuality:

How do you reconcile this with the fact that, in the womb, we all start out female?

Instead of "male and female he created them", shouldn't it be "female and female he created them (... and changed some to male later)"?

If life begins at conception, then every male is transgender.

Thoughts?

To me this looks like a bunch of disjointed ideas. Whenever the soul enters the body, there's no reason to compare the natural emergence of one's gender with forcefully changing it. And there's also no reason to relate either of those ideas with G-d's creating Adam and Eve, neither of who were conceived.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And there's also no reason to relate either of those ideas with G-d's creating Adam and Eve, neither of who were conceived.

It certainly wasn't my idea to use "male and female he created them" as a slogan for the idea that a person's gender should correspond to the sex they were born with.

... though good point about Adam and Eve not being conceived (or born in the coventional sense).

 

[arthra]

I don't see how your post is relevant at all.

The significance for me would be that the soul... the breath of life... has a higher significance than the biological make up

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The significance for me would be that the soul... the breath of life... has a higher significance than the biological make up

Do you believe that souls have genders?

 

[GoodbyeDave]

Do you believe that souls have genders?

Well, most gods seem to have a preferred gender when they manifest.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

http://www.livescience.com/32467-why-do-men-have-nipples.html

But God, and those who have passed on, don't need to reproduce. If there is an afterlife, there'd be no reason to have gender. Pointing to the gender of man-made "revealed" gods is a false as believing in them in the first place.

 

[arthra]

Do you believe that souls have genders?

"IN the name of the merciful and compassionate God. O ye folk! fear your Lord, who created you from one soul, and created therefrom its mate, and diffused from them twain many men and women...."

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 4 - Women)

So the soul is the most important.. what biological differences and distinctions follow are less significant in my view than the soul itself.

"Material civilization is like the body and spiritual civilization is like the soul. Body without soul cannot live."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 29

and

"....if the rays and heat of the sun did not shine upon the earth, the earth would be uninhabited, without meaning, and its development would be retarded. In the same way, if the perfections of the spirit did not appear in this world, this world would be unenlightened and absolutely brutal. By the appearance of the spirit in the physical form, this world is enlightened."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - , p. 314

So again the soul itself is most important.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

"IN the name of the merciful and compassionate God. O ye folk! fear your Lord, who created you from one soul, and created therefrom its mate, and diffused from them twain many men and women...."

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 4 - Women)

So the soul is the most important.. what biological differences and distinctions follow are less significant in my view than the soul itself.

"Material civilization is like the body and spiritual civilization is like the soul. Body without soul cannot live."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 29

and

"....if the rays and heat of the sun did not shine upon the earth, the earth would be uninhabited, without meaning, and its development would be retarded. In the same way, if the perfections of the spirit did not appear in this world, this world would be unenlightened and absolutely brutal. By the appearance of the spirit in the physical form, this world is enlightened."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - , p. 314

So again the soul itself is most important.

But the soul's only gender is by association with the body it temporarily inhabits. At least there's no reason for the soul to have a gender in a presumptive Hereafter.

 

[oldbadger]

.......................But I do believe in the next life, that person's gender will be clear.

In any next life, how do you know that gender will be required or needed?
Or maybe everybody will be transgender? ....or Bi-gender?

Imagine that....... all those who are heatedly self-righteous and holy about such matters in this life, discovering that they are something different in any next life....... Quite Hellish!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

"IN the name of the merciful and compassionate God. O ye folk! fear your Lord, who created you from one soul, and created therefrom its mate, and diffused from them twain many men and women...."

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 4 - Women)

So the soul is the most important.. what biological differences and distinctions follow are less significant in my view than the soul itself.

"Material civilization is like the body and spiritual civilization is like the soul. Body without soul cannot live."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 29

and

"....if the rays and heat of the sun did not shine upon the earth, the earth would be uninhabited, without meaning, and its development would be retarded. In the same way, if the perfections of the spirit did not appear in this world, this world would be unenlightened and absolutely brutal. By the appearance of the spirit in the physical form, this world is enlightened."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - , p. 314

So again the soul itself is most important.

So you don't have anything relevant to say.

In that case, please stop threadjacking my thread to proselytize for your religion.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

And there's also no reason to relate either of those ideas with G-d's creating Adam and Eve, neither of who were conceived.

If people can use Adam and Eve to justify homophobia (not saying you, but, y'know, "people"), then acknowledging the incest of a dirt man and his trans twin sister should be up for grabs.

 

[Kueid]

If you think that it's better to say that we start out neither male nor female and then develop into one or the other, that's probably a valid way to look at it...

How do you reconcile this with the fact that, in the womb, we all start out female?

You said it as it was a fact, I don't see it as a fact and I think you don't either.. is a fact that "we all start out female" or not?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You said it as it was a fact, I don't see it as a fact and I think you don't either.. is a fact that "we all start out female" or not?

It's a fact that we don't start out male, physiologically. Whether you want to interpret this as starting out female and then transitioning to male, or as starting out sexless and then developing into both male and female is a matter of interpretation of the same physical facts. I'm not going to object to either approach.