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"Life begins at conception" vs. "male and female he created them"

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
A question for those of you who both believe in "ensoulment" at conception and oppose the idea of transexuality:

How do you reconcile this with the fact that, in the womb, we all start out female?

Instead of "male and female he created them", shouldn't it be "female and female he created them (... and changed some to male later)"?

If life begins at conception, then every male is transgender.

Thoughts?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
A question for those of you who both believe in "ensoulment" at conception and oppose the idea of transexuality:

How do you reconcile this with the fact that, in the womb, we all start out female?

Instead of "male and female he created them", shouldn't it be "female and female he created them (... and changed some to male later)"?

If life begins at conception, then every male is transgender.

Thoughts?
not much thinking going on in the first few days of chemistry
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
How do you reconcile this with the fact that, in the womb, we all start out female?

We do? That's not what I learned in my biology classes. A male zygote is still XY, and a female zygote is still XX. Or are you talking about our haploid form where we are all just X within the mother as an unfertilized egg?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
We do? That's not what I learned in my biology classes. A male zygote is still XY, and a female zygote is still XX. Or are you talking about our haploid form where we are all just X within the mother as an unfertilized egg?
For the first several weeks a developing embryo follows a "female blueprint," from reproductive organs to nipples. Only after about 60 days does the hormone testosterone kick in (for those of us with a Y chromosome), changing the genetic activity of cells in the genitals and brain.
http://www.livescience.com/32467-why-do-men-have-nipples.html
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Yeah, I'm aware of that... but... eh. All this reminds me of how I learned recently that "biological sex" is a construct as much as gender identity and gender expression are. Whether or not you want to call someone who is genetically XY a "female" is a personal call.
It depends on the person. I've used the example of complete androgen insensitivity syndrome before: I don't think it's reasonable to call a woman with CAIS "male".

IMO, when we talk about "biological" sex, people are usually talking physiology. Our physiology (the genetically determined aspect, anyhow) is generally an expression of our genes, but not always... such as in cases of CAIS (which I recognize is rare, but illuminating) or in an early-stage embryo before the Y chromosome has had a chance to express itself (which isn't rare at all).
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Regardless, my little quibble aside, the general intention of your question still stands for the folks it applies to. :D Not sure how many folks we have on RF that meet your criteria.
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
IMO nothing's wrong with "transsexuality", in the sense that someone may be remembering who they were in a former birth (e.g. as the opposite sex). I believe that the optimal being brings the so-called masculine in balance and harmony with the feminine - in the consciousness, mind, and heart.

It's just that attachment and the imposition of an imbalance of those feelings onto a person's outward world (e.g. plastic surgery, etc.) which brings great pain and suffering. Instead of finding a balance, it seems that attempts are often made at wholesale changes from one polarity to another (e.g. male to female, or female to male).
 

Scott C.

Just one guy
A question for those of you who both believe in "ensoulment" at conception and oppose the idea of transexuality:

How do you reconcile this with the fact that, in the womb, we all start out female?

Instead of "male and female he created them", shouldn't it be "female and female he created them (... and changed some to male later)"?

If life begins at conception, then every male is transgender.

Thoughts?

In LDS doctrine, before we were born on earth, we lived with God as spirits with gender. That gender is part of our eternal identity that spans our pre-mortal, mortal, and immortal existence.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
In LDS doctrine, before we were born on earth, we lived with God as spirits with gender. That gender is part of our eternal identity that spans our pre-mortal, mortal, and immortal existence.
I once heard a podcast where the hosts were told this by an LDS missionary. In response, they asked him "what about intersex people?" They never got a direct answer.

Do you have an answer?
 

Scott C.

Just one guy
I once heard a podcast where the hosts were told this by an LDS missionary. In response, they asked him "what about intersex people?" They never got a direct answer.

Do you have an answer?

If a person's gender is physically ambiguous, I don't know how to identify their "eternal" gender. I consider this physical condition to be an abnormality or deformity. I honestly don't know who the person sees him/her self or if he/she can clearly identify with either gender. But I do believe in the next life, that person's gender will be clear.

In the pre-mortal life, we also were intelligent. Some people are born with brain abnormalities that impede thinking anywhere from slightly to entirely. That is a temporary condition that does not reflect what they were like prior to mortality or what they will be like in the next life. I suppose there's some similarity here with the gender question.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
I think you are being dishonest here just to prove a point.
He is not. There is a point in the embryonic development of the human male where they have what could honestly be referred to as a vagina. Regardless of whether or not we are man enough to admit it.
chapter102_1.jpg


Quintessence's quibble (I love alliteration) is valid as the gender of a zygote can only be defined by the XX or XY chromosomes. So while males did not actually start out female, they do go through a female phase. (I still love alliteration) :D
 

Kueid

Avant-garde
I'm not, but thanks for playing.

If you think I've made a mistske somewhere, feel free to explain where and how you think I'm incorrect.
You aren't being dishonest or aren't being dishonest to prove a point?

You really think that we start as female and not an non sexual being with an genitalia that resemble that of a female?

He is not
The above apply to you too.. also, is only genitalia that determine if a being is female or male to you? how about the internal reproductive organs?
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
The above apply to you too.. also, is only genitalia that determine if a being is female or male to you? how about the internal reproductive organs?
Since you ask I generally just look at a person and guess. If that does not work I and if I really needed to make a determination I might just ask.

This is not about how I personally determine gender. But there are those who would argue that it should be determined by genitalia alone. I am not one of those

And I do get the point you are making.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
If a person's gender is physically ambiguous, I don't know how to identify their "eternal" gender. I consider this physical condition to be an abnormality or deformity. I honestly don't know who the person sees him/her self or if he/she can clearly identify with either gender. But I do believe in the next life, that person's gender will be clear.

In the pre-mortal life, we also were intelligent. Some people are born with brain abnormalities that impede thinking anywhere from slightly to entirely. That is a temporary condition that does not reflect what they were like prior to mortality or what they will be like in the next life. I suppose there's some similarity here with the gender question.
That is an interesting answer, and it does seem to be internally consistent. But I have a follow up question if you don't mind.


If it is theoretically possible for a person's "eternal gender" to be "mistranslated" when they incarnate into this temporary condition causing them to be intersex , could a person's "eternal gender" be completely mistranslated causing them to be incarnated as the opposite gender?
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
A question for those of you who both believe in "ensoulment" at conception and oppose the idea of transexuality:

How do you reconcile this with the fact that, in the womb, we all start out female?

Instead of "male and female he created them", shouldn't it be "female and female he created them (... and changed some to male later)"?

If life begins at conception, then every male is transgender.

Thoughts?

There were no gender, genderless
 

Scott C.

Just one guy
That is an interesting answer, and it does seem to be internally consistent. But I have a follow up question if you don't mind.


If it is theoretically possible for a person's "eternal gender" to be "mistranslated" when they incarnate into this temporary condition causing them to be intersex , could a person's "eternal gender" be completely mistranslated causing them to be incarnated as the opposite gender?

That's a great question which I have asked myself. If the answer were "yes", that would explain some people feeling they were in the wrong body. People are born with all sorts of mental and physical handicaps that stretch the soul. But this particular situation where God actually sends a spirit to an opposite gender body strikes me as inconsistent with how I perceive that God operates in regard to gender. So my answer is "I don't think so."
 
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