Libertarians Are The Problem

[Shermana]

Would people who have homes on land given to settlers through free grants on conquered Indian territory from back to the 1800s be considered to have had a "Socialistic" reason for their private property?

The government technically owns all the land, it is basically "leased" through "Title".

From whence did the US government acquire its "federal lands"?

http://bigthink.com/strange-maps/291-federal-lands-in-the-us

 

[Crystallas]

The government technically owns all the land, it is basically "leased" through "Title".

Just curious, where in the constitution does this claim exist?

 

[Shermana]

Just curious, where in the constitution does this claim exist?

Nowhere.

How was the early US government able to give Free Land grants to settlers on freshly conquered Native lands?

Why does the government 'Own" (And the word "own" is an issue in itself) 63% of Idaho? Did they buy it or is it because it remains "unsold" (unleased)?

http://www.omg-facts.com/view/Facts/47784

 

[Revoltingest]

Would people who have homes on land given to settlers through free grants on conquered Indian territory from back to the 1800s be considered to have had a "Socialistic" reason for their private property?

I wouldn't say so.

The government technically owns all the land, it is basically "leased" through "Title".

Do you believe this, or are you being provocative.
I sometimes say it too for the latter reason.

From whence did the US government acquire its "federal lands"?
291 - Federal Lands in the US | Strange Maps | Big Think

They stole them fair & square.

 

[Revoltingest]

I ran across an interesting video which points out why I don't want gov't taking a bigger role in enabling business.
A leader with no business experience can harbor illusions which shouldn't drive public policy.
[youtube]C-ZO7XOpwa8[/youtube]
Obama 7.13.2012: If you've got a business -- you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen. - YouTube

 

[InsurgoInsurgiInsurrect]

They stole them fair & square.

Stole from who? We showed up and most of them died... not by our hand but by our bacteria and the diseases we harbored.

The natives had no resistance to smallpox, influenza, or plague or even to mild (to us) diseases like measles. Entire populations were virtually wiped out, with some Atlantic coast tribes losing 90 percent of their adult members. Some historians go so far as to say European diseases reduced the pre-contact population of the New World as a whole by 90 percent or more.

I'm not going to defend our ancestor's actions but history classes are taught for a reason.

You seem against your government which the american population elected to lead and govern them... which would mean what you are against electing a government to lead? Are you against electing people to represent you or are you against the people who vote for the people that then lead and govern you?

You really seem confused to me... Like you don't like people leading or governing... Almost like you're mad but can't figure out why you are mad with so you direct your anger against the people governing you... as if paying your taxes is what is making your life miserable rather than realizing what is actually going on.

Granted your solution seems easier... Its just not productive and barring the idea that your silly posts lead to overthrowing the government and people getting murdered without any police to prevent or punish and houses burning down without firemen helping to quell the flames and travel becoming restricted to only vehicles corporations approve I would say is just silly.

Apple has more money than your government. Are you concerned with how they spend their money more than how your government who supports and allows for apple to exist spends their funds?

You seem lost in where the money is and how it got there. To each thier own. Blind rage is how I am processing your posts at this point.

 

[Revoltingest]

Stole from who? We showed up and most of them died... not by our hand but by our bacteria and the diseases we harbored.

I said "fair & square".
I didn't say they weren't above benefiting from the dumb luck of having fell diseases.

BTW, I don't fully buy into the "we" aspect of this theft.
My feckless ancestors came to parts of the US after the conquering was done.

 

[tytlyf]

I ran across an interesting video which points out why I don't want gov't taking a bigger role in enabling business.
A leader with no business experience can harbor illusions which shouldn't drive public policy.
[youtube]C-ZO7XOpwa8[/youtube]
Obama 7.13.2012: If you've got a business -- you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen. - YouTube

Not the best choice of words, but he was referring to a broader scope of influence to achieve the goal. If you've created a business, you could give credit to the teachers for helping you get there. Even high school dropouts that have luckily started a business can give credit and not take full responsibility for reaching that goal.

I don't understand why this is being tossed around conservative websites so much.

 

[Revoltingest]

Not the best choice of words, but he was referring to a broader scope of influence to achieve the goal. If you've created a business, you could give credit to the teachers for helping you get there. Even high school dropouts that have luckily started a business can give credit and not take full responsibility for reaching that goal.
I don't understand why this is being tossed around conservative websites so much.

Around "conservative websites" like youtube? At some point we must face who Obama is, & not just blame
his intellectual shortcomings on the sources who report his failings. The video looks legit, & I've seen no claim otherwise.
Obama begins his screed with the agreeable & reasonable claim that business survives because we all cooperate. There is
no argument about this. All economic systems are interdependent. Where he becomes unhinged is with this claim.....
[youtube]6j8XhQfvpW8[/youtube]
Obama: If You've Got a Business, You Didn't Build That ... - YouTube

I didn't build my business?
Somebody else made it happen?
This betrays his complete unfamiliarity with what it's like to start a business.
So many 20 hour days....so much money invested....so much risk taken....so much intellectual capital created....& all by someone else?
That lefties can dismiss Obama's every clueless claim as poorly chosen words betrays a lack of scrutiny....& portends a rough road ahead.

 

[tytlyf]

Around "conservative websites" like youtube? At some point we must face who Obama is, & not just blame
his intellectual shortcomings on the sources who report his failings. The video looks legit, & I've seen no claim otherwise.
Obama begins his screed with the agreeable & reasonable claim that business survives because we all cooperate. There is
no argument about this. All economic systems are interdependent. Where he becomes unhinged is with this claim.....
[youtube]6j8XhQfvpW8[/youtube]
Obama: If You've Got a Business, You Didn't Build That ... - YouTube

I didn't build my business?
Somebody else made it happen?
This betrays his complete unfamiliarity with what it's like to start a business.
So many 20 hour days....so much money invested....so much risk taken....so much intellectual capital created....& all by someone else?
That lefties can dismiss Obama's every clueless claim as poorly chosen words betrays a lack of scrutiny....& portends a rough road ahead.

When I said conservative websites I mean like Faux and the Breitbarts running with the story. Below is a longer version of the clip which he mentions roads and teachers, etc. I understand where he's coming from, this is much ado about nothing.

[youtube]YFK2_D3aBXo[/youtube]
Obama Insults Small Business Owners - Obama - Fox Nation

 

[Revoltingest]

When I said conservative websites I mean like Faux and the Breitbarts running with the story. Below is a longer version of the clip which he mentions roads and teachers, etc. I understand where he's coming from, this is much ado about nothing.

To impugn the source is a red herring.
(I do like herring though....mmMMMmmMMmmMmmmmmmMMMMMmmMmmmmMMMm!)
Some would quickly sweep the embarrassing remark under the rug.
I see it signifying just why his brand of crony capitalism has failed.

 

[tytlyf]

It's not my problem people don't understand what he's referring to. The GOTP loves to make a big deal about nothing.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's not my problem people don't understand what he's referring to. The GOTP loves to make a big deal about nothing.

Are they really the ones whose understand of Obama is incorrect?
Or is it Obama's apologists who refuse to accept their correct understanding?
It does not strike me as a slip of the tongue. Moreover, this thread is about
us Libertarians becoming the problem. The Republicans are irrelevant.

 

[InsurgoInsurgiInsurrect]

I didn't build my business?
Somebody else made it happen?
This betrays his complete unfamiliarity with what it's like to start a business.
So many 20 hour days....so much money invested....so much risk taken....so much intellectual capital created....& all by someone else?
That lefties can dismiss Obama's every clueless claim as poorly chosen words betrays a lack of scrutiny....& portends a rough road ahead.

That misses the point entirely. He is not discounting your efforts but saying your business is successful and possible because of your government. Because no Cartels are gunning you down and because you have roads to drive on. Because you didn't die from food you thought was safe but was actually poison etc etc...

Your ability to have a business in america has a lot to do with what is provided to you and how you were raised. You can hire educated people because they went to public schools. At this point I think I could go all elizabeth warren and try to really explain this but your misconception probably won't change I am not sure I can explain to you how silly your argument actually sounds. I don't know what your core beliefs are but I find it odd that you don't get what he is trying to express. Odd in the sense that why would you try to spin it? What is your purpose? Are you trying to paint the president of the US as an idiot because you don't understand what he is saying or is there really some deeper reason? Do you not like obama? Do you not like presidents or government and you are trying to rationalize to yourself why that should be so?

Its kind of interesting but most people who watch that clip understand that a business in america faces different challenges than a business in Colombia or china.... Starting a business in different countries presents different challenges and Obama seems to be stating that if you are business owner here in the USA and you worked hard than beyond your work there are other factors that allowed your business to flourish. You don't agree that you were educated enough and didn't die from poisoned food or insanitary plumbing conditions were not factors in your success? I think you are smart enough to figure out where your argument took a left turn but in case you don't get it I disagree and think you are just mumbling to support a point of view grounded in your current rationalization and not in reason. It happens.

Maybe your business would do just as good in any country and being born and raised in the country you did has nothing to do with your business success.... it kinda sounds really ignorant but it might actually be true for some businesses and I have no idea what you do.

 

[Falvlun]

I wonder, in general, if voting libertarian were not an option, which of the other two parties those libertarian voters would choose. Would the majority vote 'Pub or 'Dem?

I suppose that would help determine whether I deem you libertarians a problem or not.

 

[Revoltingest]

That misses the point entirely.

No, I addressed what he clearly said.

He is not discounting your efforts but saying your business is successful and possible because of your government. Because no Cartels are gunning you down and because you have roads to drive on. Because you didn't die from food you thought was safe but was actually poison etc etc...

But that is not the conclusion he reached.

Your ability to have a business in america has a lot to do with what is provided to you and how you were raised. You can hire educated people because they went to public schools. At this point I think I could go all elizabeth warren and try to really explain this but your misconception probably won't change I am not sure I can explain to you how silly your argument actually sounds. I don't know what your core beliefs are but I find it odd that you don't get what he is trying to express. Odd in the sense that why would you try to spin it? What is your purpose? Are you trying to paint the president of the US as an idiot because you don't understand what he is saying or is there really some deeper reason? Do you not like obama? Do you not like presidents or government and you are trying to rationalize to yourself why that should be so?
Its kind of interesting but most people who watch that clip understand that a business in america faces different challenges than a business in Colombia or china.... Starting a business in different countries presents different challenges and Obama seems to be stating that if you are business owner here in the USA and you worked hard than beyond your work there are other factors that allowed your business to flourish. You don't agree that you were educated enough and didn't die from poisoned food or insanitary plumbing conditions were not factors in your success? I think you are smart enough to figure out where your argument took a left turn but in case you don't get it I disagree and think you are just mumbling to support a point of view grounded in your current rationalization and not in reason. It happens.
Maybe your business would do just as good in any country and being born and raised in the country you did has nothing to do with your business success.... it kinda sounds really ignorant but it might actually be true for some businesses and I have no idea what you do.

This is an awful lot of rationalization to avoid what Obama said, & my concurrence with part of it.

 

[Revoltingest]

I wonder, in general, if voting libertarian were not an option, which of the other two parties those libertarian voters would choose. Would the majority vote 'Pub or 'Dem?
I suppose that would help determine whether I deem you libertarians a problem or not.

You mean you need to see us as either Pub or Dem in order to judge us? I suggest a new perspective, one which
is different from the old 2-party-only one. We share some values with both, & some with neither (eg, small gov't).

 

[Falvlun]

You mean you need to see us as either Pub or Dem in order to judge?
That doesn't work for me. We share some values with both, & some with neither (eg, small gov't).
The point is that I'd like us to have enuf power to be seen as "the problem".

No, I need to know whether you are taking away perfectly good votes from getting the people I want in power elected.

 

[Revoltingest]

No, I need to know whether you are taking away perfectly good votes from getting the people I want in power elected.

Yes....we'd take votes from the others.
In what proportion? Meh....don't know....don't care.

 

[Falvlun]

Yes....we'd take votes from the others.
In what proportion? Meh....don't know....don't care.

Who cares whether you care or not? Your question was whether libertarians are problem. That could be one criteria for me to determine whether they are a problem.