Liberals...why?

[rheff78]

I hope you don't drive on tax funded public roads. And I see you still haven't grasped the definition of fascism, which is a far right ideology. Why not instead call liberals communists like conservatives traditionally do? Although inaccurate it at least makes more sense than calling them fascists of all things.

Greta way to dodge the question. Where do you think the money is going to come from? Do you have a problem paying for others to have insurance?

 

[Reverend Rick]

I'm in an agreeable mood today and agree the Republican party has slipped away from conservatism. But Liberals are smart enough to realise that there is not enough rich people to soak to pay for everyone to have health care. Just because you see a McMansion or a Lexus in the driveway does not mean this person is not in debt up to his eyeballs and one paycheck away from poverty just like the rest of us.

I get steamed when I hear someone offering free candy thinking someone else is going to pay for it. Dream on, the rich are not as rich as you think they are. It does not matter whether you are for the war in Iraq or for universal health care, we can't afford either.

 

[Autodidact]

Greta way to dodge the question. Where do you think the money is going to come from? Do you have a problem paying for others to have insurance?

Unfortunately, I already am paying for other people to get health care, and I'm doing it in an expensive and inefficient way.

 

[rheff78]

That's my point. It's not going to get better with Hilary's or Obama's plan. Your wages will get garnished if you fail to support someone else being lazy.

 

[Autodidact]

What I'm saying is that we're already supporting them. I don't know what is the best way to do it, but it's clear that the way we're doing it now is lousy. What do you favor?

My general attitude is that specific issues like health insurance, immigration, etc. are something we can get to once we save the nation from its present peril due to overwhelming financial mismanagement, as well as 7 years of constant assault on the Constitution, coupled with being mired in a prohibitively expensive and counter-productive war. Once we get those things under control, we can all go back to arguing about health insurance, gay marriage and abortion. Otherwise we're not going to have a country to provide or not provide health insurance, allow or prohibit gay marriage and abortion.

For that reason, I haven't done sufficient research about the health insurance problem. Clearly, you haven't either, but unlike me you're willing to have an uninformed opinion.

 

[Mathematician]

So, where do you think the money is going to come from for HIlary and Obama's healthcare plan? Social Security? Ok, so what if I don't pay in to social security? What then? I only ask because I think it's ridiculous for me to have to pay to make sure someone else is insured. That's facism. For the good of the state right? It doesn't make any sense. I'm not saying the healthcare system is good now, but neither plan will make it better, just much, much worse.

You have no credible evidence to back up any of these claims. Our health care system is the most expensive in all developed countries, and in terms of efficiency it ranks only one above Cuba's.

If you don't pay into social security and you're on a fixed income then you're breaking the law.

It's not fascism to support the elderly. It's called interdependence. There is nothing wrong in the principle, "all for one, and one for all." I hope that future generations will recognize the value of my 30+ years labor and support me with SS, too.

Your trying to combine socialism, social democracy, and fascism into the same stew is absolutely absurd. Fascism is hyper- reactionary capitalism - when a strong populist/workers' movement exists, the capitalists look for immediate solutions. This was the case in Italy, Nazi Germany, Spain, Bolivia, Chile, Iran, Guatemala...

 

[rheff78]

You have no credible evidence to back up any of these claims. Our health care system is the most expensive in all developed countries, and in terms of efficiency it ranks only one above Cuba's.

If you don't pay into social security and you're on a fixed income then you're breaking the law.

Ummm, I guess all teachers in Texas are breaking the law then, cause we don't pay in to social security. hey, the healthcare system is far from perfect, but it's still the best in the world. Are you saying that Hilary's plan won't garnish your wages? If that's what you are saying it's not true.

 

[Autodidact]

Ummm, I guess all teachers in Texas are breaking the law then, cause we don't pay in to social security. hey, the healthcare system is far from perfect, but it's still the best in the world. Are you saying that Hilary's plan won't garnish your wages? If that's what you are saying it's not true.

Best in the world in what way? What criteria are you using?
Just to choose one, we do NOT have the best life expectancy in the world. Or, for two, the lowest infant mortality. So by what standard is it the best?

 

[Yerda]

hey, the healthcare system is far from perfect, but it's still the best in the world.

Aye, right.

 

[yossarian22]

Aye, right.

Its true, depending on how you define world. Lets just call America the world. It's not like anybody else matters

 

[Father Heathen]

Its true, depending on how you define world. Lets just call America the world. It's not like anybody else matters

Yeah, it's kind of funny how people will claim one thing is "best in the world" with zero examination or knowledge of the others. Have they actually studied and researched the health care systems of other countries, or are they just making an arrogant and baseless assumption? I'm guessing the later, because according to the World Health Organization, the U.S. ranks 37th.

 

[Hexaqua_David(II)]

hey, the healthcare system is far from perfect, but it's still the best in the world.

Have you ever heard of Europe? Italy, Spain and all those places?

 

[Father Heathen]

Have you ever heard of Europe? Italy, Spain and all those places?

His knowledge of geography hasn't been the best in the past.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Thanks for your answer. I seldom hear from the Canadians on these issues. I wonder how the illegal immigration problem factors in. Does Canada have this problem with the huge flow of illegals like the U.S. does? One would think that with all the social programs, at some point the poor are going to so far-outnumber the wealthy, that there simply won't be enough people paying into the system to cover the costs. Then what happens?

Dunno. We don't have the illegal immigration problem that the US does. We have gone through periods where we've taken in large numbers of refugees, though, which I'm sure created significant costs for things like health care and education (because refugee claimants aren't allowed to work until their claim is heard and approved, which can take years, so they aren't paying into the system over this period), especially in the Toronto area, and we've managed okay through that.

Now, health care here isn't just a matter of hospitals being free for all; the system is set up as an insurance program. If you get medical care without an insurance card, you do get a bill... however, just like in the US (AFAIK), I'm fairly certain that someone in immediate need of medical care wouldn't be turned away even if they had no means to pay for it.

I'm not sure why you think that increased social programs will cause a higher proportion of poor people.

I've heard that it would be much more difficult to implement national health care in the U.S. simply because of it's size. The size of the population (which is much larger than Canada, not to mention Austria) makes it too expensive to manage. So it's not realisitic to compare it with the smaller countries--they say.
What do you think?

IMO, the really critical thing is per-capita revenue and expenses, and that isn't affected by size of the population, but the characteristics of the people in it. There are economies and diseconomies of scale as well, but I don't know whether things would shake out better or worse for a larger health care system.

The people in Canada, France, Germany, Spain, etc. how do they feel about their health care system? Do they like it or hate it? How does it compare to ours? I think some facts would be very helpful in evaluating this problem. But that's just me.

I think ours is pretty good. It's not perfect, but I don't know of a system that is. I can see room for improvement, but people don't die from being too poor for health care.

So, where do you think the money is going to come from for HIlary and Obama's healthcare plan? Social Security? Ok, so what if I don't pay in to social security? What then? I only ask because I think it's ridiculous for me to have to pay to make sure someone else is insured. That's facism. For the good of the state right? It doesn't make any sense. I'm not saying the healthcare system is good now, but neither plan will make it better, just much, much worse.

Is it also "fascism" to expect people to pay for a war that they disagree with?

 

[Jistyr]

Ok, the troops are coming home in 1 year anyway.

Only if a democrat wins. You think McCain is going to take them out?

Personally, I would rather do something to either help immigrants or struggling Americans and feel the burden of taxes than have our country go to war, harming others, and stacking up trillions in debt that are looming over us, growing, and remaining unpaid.

 

[Autodidact]

Hey, rheff, this is your thread. Some people took the time to answer your question; now would you like to respond?

 

[Valjean]

There have been several recent surveys of various healthcare systems, as well as the general health of people in different countries. The US doesn't rate on top in a single one of the indices. All in all we come out rather mediocre, even though more of our taxes go to healthcare than do those of any other country.

It's bizarre. Our healthcare system is the world's most expensive both in terms of government, tax supported funding and out of pocket expenses. Why do the anti-socialists so consistently ignore the fact that we already pay more in taxes for healthcare than we would if we adopted one of the European, single-payer systems -- and on top of that we still pay exhorbitant out-of-pocket fees, both directly, to healthcare providers and indirectly to insurance carriers.

If we adopted a French or Austrian system our out-of-pocket expenses would drop to zero, our tax burden would drop significantly, and our health, lifespans, infant mortality and workplace productivity would increase. Our national economy would improve.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Rheff78,
Though it is a political thread but being on RF shall present a religious perspective on this.
First there was no humans nor countries, political perties etc.
It all happened after the arrival of humans.
The developed MIND of humans which I call the SATAN as in the Bible showed the differences between all these and it is by overcoming Satan or the mind that we are back in that garden of Eden.
As humans we are all one. Nature is so balanced that it grows enough for all beings but still many go hungry etc.
Likewise nothing will happen even if lawmakers and politicians remove borders between countries and mind. Humans will be enriched bythat.
Love & rgds

 

[rheff78]

Sorry guys, was sick this weekend. Anyway, there has been nothing said on this to retaliate. I will say one thing though, McCain and Rice? That's an absolutely terrible move.

 

[Autodidact]

Sorry guys, was sick this weekend. Anyway, there has been nothing said on this to retaliate. I will say one thing though, McCain and Rice? That's an absolutely terrible move.

So I gather you're changing your voter registration then?