Liberal Christians: If I get into Heaven just cause, what’s the point?

[Muffled]

Good question.

Logically, abortion is also the ideal parenting method. Assuming that the goal is to get your kids to Heaven. Letting them live to "the age of accountability" is just giving them the freedom to make a choice that will result in Eternal Damnation, according to Christian and Muslim teachings.

This doesn't make any sense to me. It's a major reason I don't believe in such religions. It's irrational, and it's also fundamental boilerplate teachings.
Tom

I believe I have a problem with the concept that babies go to Heaven whether baptized or not. If one were to believe in original sin then the babies are in a condemned state from which they don't have time to extricate themselves and I certainly don't believe I can simply rectify a persons righteousness by prayer. If as I do one believes in reincarnation then God can opt for babies to be reconceptionalized (since there is no guarantee that conception will lead to birth).

I believe a soul is already either in an accepted or condemned state so that the only possibility for redemption is to be saved.

I believe the irrationality tends to exist both in and out of religion.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I believe I resolved the issue of what the right thing to do is when I was young. Taking ones own life is kin to murder and therefore not permitted by the commandment of God. Only God has the right to determine when someone dies.

I believe this will not work for two reasons. 1. God can send a person right back into this world with a punishment to match but my feeling about suicides is that they don't get into Heaven and don't get another life for a long time because they didn't value the one they had.

I believe it matters a great deal. Anyone can be good in Heaven but being good on earth is extremely difficult. Jesus helps with that and it makes a difference. For instance my wife was perfect in Heaven but when she came to earth with me she managed to sin. Being in Heaven did not correct her waywardness. Only being here on earth puts a person in the position where choices must be made and the truth is we learn from our bad choices sometimes.

If to what your saying is right, Your saying that a person who commits suicide, They will not go to heaven.

There has been many that knowingly if they do this or that, it will cost them their lives, so actually they committed suicide. Knowingly.
So are you saying that these people will not be in heaven. That gave their life for another person?

 

[Muffled]

no all christians, or muslim's, believe in eternal damnation. some but not all

I believe that is due to an excess of bad theology.

 

[Muffled]

If to what your saying is right, Your saying that a person who commits suicide, They will not go to heaven.

There has been many that knowingly if they do this or that, it will cost them their lives, so actually they committed suicide. Knowingly.
So are you saying that these people will not be in heaven. That gave their life for another person?

I believe although it is considered a suicide it is not. It is a sacrifice. I believe if a person is willing to sacrifice his life he deserves another life and I am sure God would grant it. Surely the person would be allowed into Heaven for doing a good deed if that is what the person wanted but my guess is that most people would rather have physical life even in a fallen world.

 

[columbus]

I believe I have a problem with the concept that babies go to Heaven whether baptized or not. If one were to believe in original sin then the babies are in a condemned state from which they don't have time to extricate themselves and I certainly don't believe I can simply rectify a persons righteousness by prayer.

I was also taught this as a child in my Christian school. We Catholics got around the logical problem by inventing Limbo.
Tom

 

[Muffled]

Being a liberal Christian is about reading the Bible without constraints and not about being an anarchist. Repentance is resurrection just as the bread and wine are the body and blood. Heaven-going is a cowardly idea, something I think is inappropriate for Christians. It is a tale told to ignorant peasants by their feudal lords to keep them in line.

I believe that is not the whole of it but I am sure some of that happens. The problem is that getting liberal with the Bible is somewhat like a movie getting liberal with its portrayal of a book. It just doesn't come out right as far as people who have read the book are concerned. The problem with the Bible is that it is non-fiction and one should not ficitionalize it with a liberal view.

I don't think God sees it that way. I believe sometimes one must get back on the horse and try again but I would not send a soldier suffering shell shock back into battle. That would be cruel.

I believe I have never seen any evidence to support that concept.

 

[Fool]

The large majority do believe in Eternal Damnation because it's a fundamental boilerplate teaching of both religions.
Tom

truth and understanding aren't a herd mentality.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I believe although it is considered a suicide it is not. It is a sacrifice. I believe if a person is willing to sacrifice his life he deserves another life and I am sure God would grant it. Surely the person would be allowed into Heaven for doing a good deed if that is what the person wanted but my guess is that most people would rather have physical life even in a fallen world.

What makes you think, that a baby that had no chance to their life, to make decisions of their life, but had their life taken from them, will not go to heaven.

Say for instance in abortions, the baby had no choice, but had their life taken from them, before they had any chance of making any decisions for themselves.

 

[Muffled]

I was also taught this as a child in my Christian school. We Catholics got around the logical problem by inventing Limbo.
Tom

Churches teach all kinds of things that are not true. I am not sure which things you were referring to though. My church teaches that when you die you go to Heaven or Hell and babies despite being sinful go to Heaven whether baptized or not.

I don't believe it was invented. The reality existed so they had to come up with a theological explanation for it and of course that left room for error.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I believe that is not the whole of it but I am sure some of that happens. The problem is that getting liberal with the Bible is somewhat like a movie getting liberal with its portrayal of a book. It just doesn't come out right as far as people who have read the book are concerned. The problem with the Bible is that it is non-fiction and one should not ficitionalize it with a liberal view.

"What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up." (I Corinthians 14:26) Is this the way things are done in churches today? No. Nobody is allowed to bring a revelation or word of instruction. If they do they are told they are out of line. Everything they say is only allowed if it supports the creed of the congregation they are in. Each group allows 1 interpretation and 1 revelation. In Liberal churches however, the spirit is not so quenched. We believe God can move and teach. God is the guardian of truth, and circumcised are the guardians of Torah. The rest of us may receive revelations and interpretations. There is not a need for a strict 'You must view things this way' culture.

I don't think God sees it that way. I believe sometimes one must get back on the horse and try again but I would not send a soldier suffering shell shock back into battle. That would be cruel.

I grasp what you are saying to me, and I deeply empathize. I have two siblings who each have had to bear the death of a child. I have no children, so its easier for me. Nevertheless, the focus upon preparing for an afterlife is not the right way. Its not a commitment to do good. It doesn't create humility. Its fear based living. Remember that to please God you must have faith, and you can't do that if you're living for the afterlife. Its entirely possible to do all kinds of good things out of fear and get no credit, just as its possible to say "Lord did I not do all kinds of things for you?" only to be rejected as someone who doesn't know what they are talking about. Not for you since you do not need it, but I will provide two references for others where Jesus talks about this: Matthew 25:32 (sheep and goats) and Matthew 13:30 (tares and wheat that look alike).

I believe I have never seen any evidence to support that concept.

Medieval Life - Feudalism and the Feudal System - History

"Adam Smith used the term "feudal system" to describe a social and economic system defined by inherited social ranks, each of which possessed inherent social and economic privileges and obligations. In such a system wealth derived from agriculture, which was arranged not according to market forces but on the basis of customary labour services owed by serfs to landowning nobles." --https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudalism

"In Roman culture, it was common for a patron (a wealthy Roman citizen) to automatically retain his freed slaves in a dependent relationship, known as patronage. This required the client to accompany his patron to war and protect him if the latter so wished, to accompany him to court as a vocal supporter and, if the patron held public office, to act as his assistant and to accompany him on representational events in public." --https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudalism_in_the_Holy_Roman_Empire

Note the emphasis upon war in the culture. A man's life was mostly about being expendable, because that was required by the feudal system. Everything depended upon getting men to throw their lives away at a moment's notice.

 

[Muffled]

What makes you think, that a baby that had no chance to their life, to make decisions of their life, but had their life taken from them, will not go to heaven.

Say for instance in abortions, the baby had no choice, but had their life taken from them, before they had any chance of making any decisions for themselves.

I believe it depends on where one thinks spirits come from. If one thinks God is still creating spirits then certainly He would be creating them as good but then there wouldn't be any evil in the world because all spirits would be good. However there is evil in the world which puts that concept in jeopardy. If one believes the spirits are coming from previous lives then the odds are that they are already sinners and in a condemned state needing salvation.

So the bottom line is that I believe babies made decisions in previous lives. It isn't that they couldn't go to Heaven but simply whether
God would decide what is best for them. As Paul said in my own words that he is torn between wanting to stay on earth and be useful in the furtherance of the Gospel or to be in Heaven where everything is dandy for himself. My choice was to leave Heaven to be useful to God on earth.

By the way I believe you still haven't addressed the problem with original sin. Are you saying that babies are exempt? What does that mean : that original sin only kicks in at the age of accountablilty?

 

[Muffled]

"What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up." (I Corinthians 14:26) Is this the way things are done in churches today? No. Nobody is allowed to bring a revelation or word of instruction. If they do they are told they are out of line. Everything they say is only allowed if it supports the creed of the congregation they are in. Each group allows 1 interpretation and 1 revelation. In Liberal churches however, the spirit is not so quenched. We believe God can move and teach. God is the guardian of truth, and circumcised are the guardians of Torah. The rest of us may receive revelations and interpretations. There is not a need for a strict 'You must view things this way' culture.

I grasp what you are saying to me, and I deeply empathize. I have two siblings who each have had to bear the death of a child. I have no children, so its easier for me. Nevertheless, the focus upon preparing for an afterlife is not the right way. Its not a commitment to do good. It doesn't create humility. Its fear based living. Remember that to please God you must have faith, and you can't do that if you're living for the afterlife. Its entirely possible to do all kinds of good things out of fear and get no credit, just as its possible to say "Lord did I not do all kinds of things for you?" only to be rejected as someone who doesn't know what they are talking about. Not for you since you do not need it, but I will provide two references for others where Jesus talks about this: Matthew 25:32 (sheep and goats) and Matthew 13:30 (tares and wheat that look alike).


Medieval Life - Feudalism and the Feudal System - History

"Adam Smith used the term "feudal system" to describe a social and economic system defined by inherited social ranks, each of which possessed inherent social and economic privileges and obligations. In such a system wealth derived from agriculture, which was arranged not according to market forces but on the basis of customary labour services owed by serfs to landowning nobles." --https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudalism

"In Roman culture, it was common for a patron (a wealthy Roman citizen) to automatically retain his freed slaves in a dependent relationship, known as patronage. This required the client to accompany his patron to war and protect him if the latter so wished, to accompany him to court as a vocal supporter and, if the patron held public office, to act as his assistant and to accompany him on representational events in public." --https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudalism_in_the_Holy_Roman_Empire

Note the emphasis upon war in the culture. A man's life was mostly about being expendable, because that was required by the feudal system. Everything depended upon getting men to throw their lives away at a moment's notice.

I believe it depends on the church. Some do and some don't.

I believe again that depends upon the church but I am not sure it really happens exactly that way.

I believe that is the whole gist of what Paul is saying ie that there should be order in the church and not a confusion of voices: I Cor 14:33 for God is not a God of confusion, but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,

I believe that is a question of orthodoxy. Early in church history people started to have erroneous views so the church had to try and decide what was acceptable Christianity and what was not. After the reformation erroneous thinking seemed to multiply giving us different denominations and each denomination thinks its errors are right and seeks to keep their errors as orthodoxy. I attended a Presbyterian church for a while and pointed out all the errors that Calvin made but it seems once a person believes Calvin is right about everything then I must be wrong, lol. Of course I could comment during Bible study if called upon and I certainly was not asked to leave because of my different beliefs, so I have no complaints.

I believe that is how one prevents confusion. That will be the orthodox view but it does not mean that other views are not held and given voice at an appropriate time. What churches usually fail to do is resolve conflicting views. As often happens on RF people will just dig in and defend their beliefs as though nothing could be said that could change a person's beliefs. What is more likely to happen is that a person is asked to leave or leaves to find a more comfortable theology.

I believe that sounds nice on the surface but what usually happens is that there is a conflict that isn't resolved or the church simply becomes weak on theology. What happens to errors? The Mormon church is a case in point. Although usually it is the prophets that get to do the spiritual thing, new revelations have a tendency to be in error. For instance the idea that Jesus will return to Missouri, USA.

I believe the problem is that different views can't both be true. Do aborted babies go to Heaven or not? Is there reincarnation or not? Is everyone who clams to be a Christian saved or not?

I can understand why you might think so but Jesus has a different view: Mat 6:19 ¶ Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth consume, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21 for where thy treasure is, there will thy heart be also.

I believe in doing good because I believe God is right about things. I am humble because I know that I am not always right about things. I am not living in fear but in hope.

I believe I never saw anything that leads me believe they are mutually exclusive.

I believe I don't see anything in that which says peasants were motivated to fight by offering them Heaven. What it says is they were obligated to fight whatever the outcome but I can imagine Heaven might have been proffered as a consolation.

 

[Muffled]

that seems to be what jesus focused on. jesus was a liberal and a liberator.

I believe I don't see it that way. God as Jesus and the Father never saw any other opinion than theirs as acceptable.

 

[Fool]

I believe I don't see it that way. God as Jesus and the Father never saw any other opinion than theirs as acceptable.

love doesn't force an opinion, a belief. it has to be understood by the self; otherwise the path to destruction is one's own choices based one one's own beliefs. belief is a powerful thing. look how it leads people to their realities.

God doesn't have to punish; that's the mentality, spirit of those who are lost and confused. they reap what they sow. they can't sow seeds from weeds and expect a harvest of edible plants.

One can't sow discord, hate, differences, divisiveness, and truly believe they're going to reap heaven, nirvana.

do not follow blindly.

15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

christ is here, christ is now.


2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ.


transfiguration of the old to the renewed.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

why did Christ or god ever do anything?

Supposed he came up with a Way to make you and others better.

It's not the most fleshed out Way, and there are others that put more effort into it, but whatever.

Why don’t I just kill myself and my entire family so we don’t have to suffer this world?

Why are you suffering this world if God is helpful (this is coming from a theist, btw)?

God judges you based on your choices.

And keeps in mind the background behind those choices.

So what happens in the afterlife or is heaven just a metaphor in the liberal view?

How is the afterlife relevant to political views?

His death is absolutely pivotal to every Christian, regardless of their leaning towards a "liberal" or "conservative" adherence to their faith.

On the contrary. He died because Romans sure loved them some death penalties. That's it.

It is arguable that Christ's greatest teaching was manifested in the manner in which he gave Himself up to death like a lamb: without "taking the sword", retaliating against his abusers or cursing them as they ridiculed, beat and nailed him to the cross but rather praying that they be forgiven.

He must not have had his whip with him that time.

Hang on a second ... Jesus didn't keep animals ... why does he HAVE a whip?

Plus, it's mean to whip animals, too.

You see, it is because Christians understand Jesus as being an innocent victim of the sinfulness of mankind

He caused a LOT of problems that Romans just couldn't ignore. In their view, he was a religious terrorist.

There was a lot of this nonsense going on at the time.

you kill your self and your family and you will reincarnate again in a worst life than the one you actually have.

Or they'll all be reincarnated as better people because they had nothing to do with SinSaber's nonsense and he'll be reincarnated as an innocent child killed off by some druggie parent or something.

Karma.

For in taking an innocent life.

But the bible doesn't have this problem, though. When I take antibiotics, I kill something like this:

When a woman aborts, either through medical intervention or because it just didn't work out biologically, most of the time this is killed:

If you were in a burning building, you would save the one baby or the thousands of spherical cells?

Why would God prevent a child from entering heaven, when in fact the child had no say so in the matter ?

Why does God say it's okay for a paranoid husband to force an abortion done by priests in the bible?

So are you saying that these people will not be in heaven. That gave their life for another person?

Jesus essentially did suicide by cop. Between that and calling people fools (which he says ends with you in hell), I don't see how Jesus gets out of hell, actually.

Is this the way things are done in churches today? No. Nobody is allowed to bring a revelation or word of instruction. If they do they are told they are out of line. Everything they say is only allowed if it supports the creed of the congregation they are in.

Yeah, the hubris people display by telling God what He can and cannot do or say is astounding.

 

[Nakosis]

How is the afterlife relevant to political views?

Liberal Christian. IOW one who doesn't see the Bible as the literal Word of God. It's man's witness of God, so not necessarily perfect.

 

[David T]

why did Christ or god ever do anything? Why don’t I just kill myself and my entire family so we don’t have to suffer this world? It doesn’t matter.

Last I checked God is a suffering God. I might say god suffers so much God suffers the worst suffering of all. God has to suffer your insufferable stupidity which is all about monomeism and loves your dumb *** regardless!! I am not god.

 

[columbus]

Your leaving out the major reason about abortions.
Yeah taking an innocent life, is wrong.

My question is "Why? Why do you believe that? What's wrong with sending a person directly to Heaven?"

As a non-theist I can explain why I think abortion is immoral with ease and logic. When a person deprives another human being of life, they are destroying everything that human being has or could have. As well as destroying any potential contribution to the rest of the Family of Humanity that baby might make.

If someone believes in Judgment and Heaven and Almighty God and such, then there is no logical reason to oppose deliberate feticide. It's not Scriptural. It's not rational.
It appears to be humans adopting secular values and attributing them to God.
Tom

 

[Sleeppy]

why did Christ or god ever do anything? Why don’t I just kill myself and my entire family so we don’t have to suffer this world? It doesn’t matter.

Is the question itself a sign?

 

[Muffled]

love doesn't force an opinion, a belief. it has to be understood by the self; otherwise the path to destruction is one's own choices based one one's own beliefs. belief is a powerful thing. look how it leads people to their realities.

God doesn't have to punish; that's the mentality, spirit of those who are lost and confused. they reap what they sow. they can't sow seeds from weeds and expect a harvest of edible plants.

One can't sow discord, hate, differences, divisiveness, and truly believe they're going to reap heaven, nirvana.

do not follow blindly.

15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

christ is here, christ is now.


2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ.


transfiguration of the old to the renewed.

I believe that is true.

I believe at times people get tunnel vision and don't see the entire picture.

I believe there are also those who think God will not punish and that they will get away with whatever they want. They blind themselves to the fact that God hates sin and can punish if He wishes.